SSE Using CK to figure out object ids... which then don't work in game?

[Tazling]

Using Creation Kit and loading my first several .esms, I find that the correct ids for the 3 words of the Bend Will shout (listed by CK as DLC2 Bend Will, iirc) are (in sequence) 040179D9, 040179DA, 040179DB. The shout itself appears to have id 040179D8. 04 sounds about right, since my Dragonborn DLC is in 5th place per Vortex (I assume counting starts at 0).

 

I am testing the console functions teachword, unlockword, addshout and equipshout. They seem to work for most shouts (those that are in the base game and start with 00, that is). But when I have to prefix the 04 (as indicated by CK) these commands fail. I get the message "Object ID XXXX not recognised as word of power" or some text to that effect, so I can't even teachword the individual words.

 

It occurred to me that I'm actually running SkyrimVR, which is usually-but-not-quite-always the same as SE, and was wondering if anyone knew of any different rules for word-of-power IDs for VR.

 

I have been loading only the first 6 or so .esms. If I load too many, CK crashes. CK also hangs on exit every time, but that doesn't really trouble me as I am only using it (so far) for poking around in internals like object names and IDs.

 

I notice that the .esm load order as shown in CK disagrees with what Vortex tells me. For some reason it puts (thinks) Lanterns of Skyrim and Realistic Water Two, I think, ahead of Unofficial Patch; whereas Vortex thinks the Patch comes first. Should I be concerned? Is this a bad sign?

 

Anyway, it's been frustrating me for several days, this inability to do anything with shout components or whole shouts that are found in DLCs, even though the shout processing commands work just great for base-game shouts like Whirlwind Sprint and Unrelenting Force. If anyone knows where I'm going wrong, a clue would be most welcome.

[AnishaDawn]

Try this

 

help myobjectname 4 (you can also do wildcard searches, see example below for what I mean)

 

This will bring up a list in the console. You can use page up/down(need keyboard) to scroll the list. When you find your object, the formid listed with it is what you use, don't worry about the mod index(0x), that only matters for modded stuff, even then searches will still catch those too.

 

example

 

help whirl 4

 

^That will bring up a list of possible matches and whirlwind sprint will appear in the list.

Edited April 11, 2021 by AnishaDawn

[Tazling]

Bear with me here, I'm still pretty n00b as you can probably tell :-) so... went and looked up "help" in TES5 console cmds.

 

help: Show all console commands with descriptions. Add descriptors to search for IDs. ex: help "elven armor" 0 will show ids of all items that include "elven armor" in the name. Quotation mark is a must for items with more than one word ex: "elven armor," <#> sets the limits for the search function, 0 = no limits; 4 = Exact.

 

Up until reading that, I thought your "4" meant "items from DLC load order 4" :-)

 

Tthanks... though I'm usually far-far-away from my keyboard when using VR (virch desktop, different room!). I will have to try running cabled, local to the PC, w/in reach of kbrd, to do this research.

 

what I had read online suggested that the number prefix was relevant for DLCs (like the 3 or is it 4 DLCs that are built into the official SkyrimVR release) not just community mods... that's why I was counting DLCs and thought the 04 made sense. Do you mean that I should forget the 4 and use 0? anyway, I'll find out when I fire the game up and try the help <string> 4 cmd.

 

is there a reason why the formid found via CK could differ from what the game is actually using at runtime? (dare I hope, a systematic and predictable pattern?)

[AnishaDawn]

I can't really explain that. All I know is for modded records, the index is 02 in the CK, but is replaced by the mod load order index when loaded by the game.

Edited April 12, 2021 by AnishaDawn

[Tazling]

Many thanks AnishaDawn. Very clarifying. It sounds to me like the index in the CK can differ from what is actually used in gameplay, and that's all I need to know: CK is not a trustworthy guide to the working formid, and "help" in a running game is the only way to discover these hex codes. Muchas gracias... have a sweetroll on me :-)

 

So I got a screenshot of the console, but for some reason this forum will not let me include an image link -- no way, no format, not as a google drive file, not as imgur, grrr. So here's the text typed out by hand, grrr again. I omit here a couple of uninteresting lines about Faction attributes.

 

MGEF: (0201F138) 'Bend Will 01'

MGEF: (0201FF1F) 'Bend Will 01'

SPEL: (020179DC) 'Bend Will'

SPEL: (020179E1) 'Bend Will'

SPEL: (0201FF1E) 'Bend Will'

SHOU: (020179D8) 'Bend Will'

 

Contrast the same info per CK:

Bend Will word 1 040179D9

Bend Will word 2 040179DA

Bend Will word 3 040179DB

Bend Will shout 040179D8

Notice that these make a kind of sense: a monotonic progression starting with D8 the parent shout, then the component words in order.

The real formids from the running game engine seem kind of randomised by comparison.

 

 

MGEF must be Magic Effects, and there are two apparently for this shout, so that takes care of the first 2 lines.

Then it looks like the 3 SPEL entries are the three words, though they are not numbered in any order (hmmm).

And only one of them even partially matches the write-ups at UESP.net (which matches CK output).

The leading digits here are 02 not 04, and the formids are different.

 

But ours not to reason why... Then the SHOU must be the completed shout. Right. Hey, one formid that actually matches! except for the leading 02 instead of 04 in CK.

 

So it looks like I have to use these 3 SPEL formids for the teach and unlock commands. I'll give that a try!

 

BTW... You wouldn't happen to know how to player.equip a Racial Power, would you? I've tried both equipspell and equipshout on Night Eye, which is a Racial Power for me because I'm playing as Khajit... and neither works. I'm trying to figure out how Powers relate to Spells and Shouts.

[AnishaDawn]

You're correct. The DLCs(as they are esms) are subject to the load order index. Skyrim.esm is always 00/01. 0x Records native to Skyrim.esm never change and you can rely on them from the CK. 02 onward, you need to look at their mod index in an MO or in-game.

 

 

BTW... You wouldn't happen to know how to player.equip a Racial Power, would you? I've tried both equipspell and equipshout on Night Eye, which is a Racial Power for me because I'm playing as Khajit... and neither works. I'm trying to figure out how Powers relate to Spells and Shouts.

If you mean how to make it the active power, can't you equip it in the powers menu? Also if it's already been used, it wont let you deselect it until it's ready again.

Powers generally are 1 use per game day, this appears to be a hardcoded thing. Powers are still spells, just like shouts, however they(shouts) require extra steps because the Words of Power are required to work, and those are separate forms.

 

Powers, Lesser Powers and Shouts are all spell forms.

 

Assuming you removed the power through some other means and want to add it back, you have to first use addspell, then use equipspell.

Assuming you removed the power and meant how to add it back, that's still addspell.

Edited April 12, 2021 by AnishaDawn

[Tazling]

You're correct. The DLCs(as they are esms) are subject to the load order index. Skyrim.esm is always 00/01. 0x Records native to Skyrim.esm never change and you can rely on them from the CK. 02 onward, you need to look at their mod index in an MO or in-game.

 

 

BTW... You wouldn't happen to know how to player.equip a Racial Power, would you? I've tried both equipspell and equipshout on Night Eye, which is a Racial Power for me because I'm playing as Khajit... and neither works. I'm trying to figure out how Powers relate to Spells and Shouts.

If you mean how to make it the active power, can't you equip it in the powers menu? Also if it's already been used, it wont let you deselect it until it's ready again.

 

Powers generally are 1 use per game day, this appears to be a hardcoded thing. Powers are still spells, just like shouts, however they(shouts) require extra steps because the Words of Power are required to work, and those are separate forms.

 

Powers, Lesser Powers and Shouts are all spell forms.

 

Assuming you removed the power through some other means and want to add it back, you have to first use addspell, then use equipspell.

Assuming you removed the power and meant how to add it back, that's still addspell.

Reading elsewhere, strong confirmation that CK is not reliable regarding load order. There is a hefty patch kit that is supposed to improve it--which I believe I installed--but the takeaway message seems to be that (as you say) any formids starting with 02 and higher are likely to be different in CK from what they are in the running game. Lesson learned.

 

OK, true confessions time: main reason I am digging around so diligently in the formids for popular shouts and spells (other than Insatiable Curiosity) is because I have been infected by the ghastly Magic Menu CTD (aieeee), so I cannot access any of my magic via the menu. I have to do it all by console commands (snif). I am playing in wireless VR so the keyboard is far away and irrelevant :-) So I'm using voice commands (via VoiceAttack app) to invoke the console. In the process I'm learning a lot about the inner mechanics of magic in the game :-)

 

I have enough hours in that all this hackery seems better than starting over and losing all my progress. I mean, I've earned my Thanedom in Whiterun and bought the house and adopted the kid and everything, it would be a shame to write off all that campaigning.

 

So... yeah. I am a Khajit so entitled from the get-go to Night Eye; but I have never been able to get it to equip using console. player.equipspell doesn't work and neither does player.equipshout. Now, I may be using the wrong formid because this is not an acquired Night Eye spell, but my innate Khajit night vision. I did look up at UESP the formid for the innate Khajit racial power, but who knows what the game actually thinks it is? So I probably need to do the help command in-game again for "night eye", and see what it thinks the Night Eye formid is.

 

If the game thinks that this formid is indeed the one I'm using, then I am flummoxed as to why it will not equip. It equips OK from the Favourites menu. Fortunately I added it there before the CTD bug bit me -- I will never again on this playthrough be able to Favourite any spell or shout, sigh. Unless (hmmm!) there's a console command for Favouriting! [makes note to google some more!] So I could go on invoking it from there, if I can't figure out the console command.

 

anyway, I really appreciate your advice (and patience with my n00biness). thanks!

[IsharaMeradin]

You should be able to use SSEEdit outside of the game to load your entire active load order and get accurate IDs as the game would see them.

[Tazling]

Thanks IsharaMeradin... if I am using xEdit (in any of its guises) and I load only the first N of my dcl and mod stack (in the right order), because I am only interested in something in the first N items on the stack, is that safe? Or do I have to load the whole darned stack to make the xEdit data match the game? i.e. do mods loaded later affect the formids or other data for mods loaded earlier?

[Tazling]

So it turns out that for some reason, my game uses 02 as the prefix for Bend Will, not 04 as you might think; but the codes after the prefix are the same as in CK, not those that show up when I use "help". Which is totally confusing, of course. But what else is new? Skyrim exists to confuse us.