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TEST - Race based attack commiment


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#1
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TEST - Race based attack commiment

A testing mod for a "soft" attack commitment achieved by editing races. "Mortal enemies" mod integrated. All DLC's required

#2
teknique2323

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Plays perfectly with Enai's new Wildcat Combat mod! Thanks for this!

#3
JunoValesti

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Hmmm, interesting... I was considering permanently using Mortal Enemies since it includes all creatures.. BUT if this mod is built on top of that one, then this is... better?

Anyway, on to the brief testing...
Tested on:
1) Bandits (1h & 2h),
2) Draugr (1h & 2h),
3) Animals (wolves & bears),
4) Trolls (Normal & Armored) and
5) Lycans (Werewolves & werebears)
Creatures were tested since this mod builds on top of Mortal Enemies...


Mods used that may have affected test results:
- Combat Evolved
- Disparity (no attack speed fix)

Method of testing:
- Simple 3rd person strafing left & right before test subject w/ normal 100 movement speed (Did not use TK Dodge)
- Why? -> the "Hard" attack commitment could be avoided by merely side-stepping... TK Dodging would be overkill, so simple strafing would set a standard base.


Results:
1) Bandits (vanilla combat animations)
- 1h normal attacks are really fast & cannot be avoided by mere strafing. (TK Dodge would yield better results)
- 1h power attacks could be avoided w/ strafing but w/ some difficulty.
- 2h normal attacks could be avoided w/ strafing
- 2h power attacks - Forward pwr attacks could be avoided BUT the Sideways power swings cannot (Arc is to wide to avoid w/o TK Dodge)

2) Draugr (vanilla combat animations)
- 1h normal attacks could be avoided w/ strafing (Draugr hits 6/10-ish of the time)
- 1h power attacks could be avoided w/ strafing (Draugr hits 4/10-ish of the time)
- Um, the 2h normal and power attacks by draugr are EASILY avoided by mere strafing alone

3) Animals
- Wolves' normal attacks are really fast & cannot be avoided by strafing (TK Dodging might do it)
- Wolves' leaping attack are barely avoidable w/ strafing
- Bears' normal attacks could be avoided w. strafing
- Bears' standing power attack CANNOT BE AVOIDED AT ALL (maybe unaffected by attack commitment?)

4) Trolls
- The Trolls' (whether normal or armored) usual left-right combo attack -> 1st swing is avoidable by strafing, but 2nd swing always hits

5) Lycans
- Werewolves (whether swinging or head-butting?) cannot be avoided due to its speed.
- Werebears (despite being somewhat smaller than werewolves) have slower swings/turning speed & could be avoided by strafing.

Stray Observations:
- The bear's standing power attack ROTATES to hit you every time.
- The Draugr's easily avoided attacks are due to its slow reaction time.. i.e. when strafing before it, it seems to take a moment to consider before committing to a swing... as such, its 2h attacks usually swing a half-second after you've passed...
- Unsure if connected, but mouse sensitivity seems to have increased in general.

W/ regard to the player's gameplay:
- This "soft" attack commitment is WAAAY better than the "hard" one especially when wading into an open battle w/ multiple enemies coming from different angles..
- The "hard" attack commitment seems better suited for 1-on-1 duels w/ bosses rather than against mobs..

Anyway, that's my 2 cents w/ regards to this test version... Hope it helps somewhat :D

Edited by JunoValesti, 25 June 2016 - 06:12 PM.


#4
taro8

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In response to post #39788940.


Spoiler

Thank you for detailed info.

The draugr have higher angular acceleration rate (AAR) meaning it takes them longer to rotate. I found it fitting as they are animated corpses pretty much. That is why their 2H swings are easier to avoid.

The bears rotation may be in the attack animation itself.

During my testing I have found that erratic movement back and forth and side to side works very well. Also dodging into attacks, Bloodborne-style, is actually better in some situations. Personally I was able to avoid 1h swings, in 1-on-1, even in full armor without TK Dodge AND with realistic humanoid speed, with actually made me slower. I think all you need to do is git gud at footwork. Now if there only was a way to stop AI getting right in your face, this would make ability to judge distance more important.

In short: strafing isn't everything sometimes going back and forth may be a better idea.

Did you test dragons? I upped their AAR and I'm not sure if not too high.

How would compare combat with this mod vs vanilla combat?

Anyway, it's hard to balance everything out, as every fight is a little bit different. You can fight in a tight corridor, vs multiple opponents etc. Take your info on the draugrs for example; they may be slow in 1-on-1 but when you get attacked by multiple draugrs, weakness of the individual is balanced out by the numbers.

Regarding mortal enemies: sadly center05 said he might not have time to update his mod in near future.

Edited by taro8, 26 June 2016 - 08:48 AM.


#5
JunoValesti

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In response to post #39788940. #39812445 is also a reply to the same post.


Spoiler

Apologies if the whole strafing bit caused some confusion :pinch:.. My initial testing using Strafing was just to check the rotation/arc of the 'soft' attack commitment of the altered races :P (To see if it was too wide like vanilla or too narrow like the 'hard' attack commitment) It was not meant for actual combat because, apart from strafing, people can and do use a variety of other movements (like the bloodborne-style of dodging into attacks you mentioned) to evade w/o TK Dodge..


Anyway... Since this mod alters races, it conflicts w/ mods such as PCEA, Height Adjusted Races or Disparity, or any other mod w/c makes changes to the vanilla races... Creatures & animals are safe though UNLESS one uses mods like Animal Tweaks... Well, Tes5edit to the rescue! :D


Huh, bummer to hear that about center05 :(.. So, I guess for my main playthough, I'll either choose the quick 'plug-&-play' way and use his mod OR the slow 'Tes5edit' way and combine both your 'hard' mod (for player/npcs) & 'soft' mod (for creatures/animals -> while allowing other npc-race-altering mods to override the latter in the load order)... Decisions, decisions :wacko:


Regardless, I'll continue testing some time later on w/ results to follow... I'll be sure to check out the dragons, dwarven centurions, skeletons, frost atronachs ('cos it prefers melee unlike its cousins), gargoyles, giants & mammoths (ESPECIALLY giants & mammoths :wallbash:), and dremoras/dremorae(?) :huh:

Edited by JunoValesti, 26 June 2016 - 05:45 PM.


#6
taro8

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In response to post #39788940. #39812445, #39818620 are all replies on the same post.


Spoiler

Damn, I was hoping that only AAR and attack stuff will get overwritten, not whole race, meaning my mod can be used on top of race mods without breaking them. Wouldn't Mortal Enemies also get broken in this case?

I would love to have some patcher or something, but I have absolutely no idea how to do any of that stuff. If someone could do at least a TESVEdit script that would apply my changes with few clicks it would incredible.

So, how do you like the mod so far?

Edited by taro8, 26 June 2016 - 08:18 PM.


#7
JunoValesti

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In response to post #39788940. #39812445, #39818620, #39832865 are all replies on the same post.


Spoiler

Yup and yes, Mortal Enemies also suffers from the same problem... well, putting these guys at the bottom of one's load order would solve that problem but at the expense of other race-altering mods (for folks like me out there who still use ye-old PCEA, switching over to the new FNIS PCEA2 might help since it won't affect other races).... In my case, I went w/ the slow 'Tes5edit' way of patching them w/ the mods I have...

Having a Tes5edit script that could accomplish such things w/ just a few clicks IS the dream of many a modders :woot:... Unfortunately, the most that can be done at the moment is either to merge or patch w/ Tes5edit :(.. Though mods such as this or this might help...

On your question, I'm still patching :sweat:... I'll post my results later :D

Note: The 'hard' attack commitment mod DOES NOT conflict w/ anything since its the only mod (that I know of) that edits movement types :P... Quick question on that part: Have you tried altering the movement types of the other creatures instead? (that way no patching would ever be needed for your mod :thumbsup:)

#8
taro8

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In response to post #39788940. #39812445, #39818620, #39832865, #39845425 are all replies on the same post.


Spoiler

Unfortunately there no movement types for creatures with would let me control them during attacks same way I can do with NPC's. That is why I'm experimenting with race edits.

Man, I wish I could filter TESVEdit in such way all of the races AAR is displayed in a single page and let you copy a whole column from one mod and change all the values in other.

Edited by taro8, 27 June 2016 - 07:08 AM.


#9
JulianC1991

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I'm really liking this mod. I've used your other mod and Mortal enemies before. This seems like it could show real potential.

#10
taro8

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In response to post #40547020.


Spoiler

How would compare this mod to other ones? Suggestions, ideas?




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