BadMaker

I tried to make some maps of Whiterun by going way high in the sky and looking down, but it turned out so bad that it doesn't really work. If I could find a decent detailed map of whiterun, like the google maps styled zoomable maps that came out for Oblivion, I could outline perfectly how I would lay out another 'ring' to the city.

That includes a rough number of guards, but it might not include as many NPC's just outside the city. A 'better suburbs' might be another idea for a sub-mod for better cities. I was picturing a new ring wall for Whiterun which would have new urban districts, but a big city like Whiterun also needs more farms around it, especially flanking major roads.

I was doing a bit of rough number crunching and found out a palce like Morthal only has about 20-25 NPC's if you count the guards. Solitude has around 90 if you count the guards. The city of Anvil from the TES:Oblivion has about 90 as well including guards. The Imperial city seems to have around 250-300 NPCs! Skyrim has 5 major cities, 4 minor cities, 1 large town (riverwood is actually the size of Morthal), some lumber mills, farms and a half dozen villages. We also have 4 orc strongholds which are like small towns. Oblivion has the imperial city, which is huge and practically counts as 2-3 major cities. 7 major cities, not counting Kvatch obviously. 10 villages, a few farms and chapels/isolated inns. So. Do we focus on converting one city in Skyrim into a major city like the imperial city? How could we add 'depth' with quests and things to do? Or should we try focusing on upgrading some smaller cities into major cities, or maybe converting some of the towns/larger villages into cities?

This is a post I made in a similar thread:

I am thinking that the inside of the current city needs a major refit first. Like much more density, larger buildings,and taller buildings. Many more street stalls, markets and compounds. The poorer areas of the city need to have a few shacks and poor merchants. The wealthier areas need larger buildings that loom over the street. On the outside, where the newly added parts of the city will go, I picture a few new businesses. Perhaps a place for textiles, denser farms within the walls, a granary area, maybe a district for Orcs similar to the orc strongholds and some other structures.

I started coming up with some quick concept sketches for how whiteruns walls could be expanded to encompass a greater area. Obviously buildings would be added,maybe more farms and I am thinking the two major farms could be converted into Villa style farms, albeit with a whiterun styling. One thing I did not include is the fact that these walls would largely be ruined, some sections would only be worn down a bit, others repaired with wood and still other areas consisting of gates and barricades instead of solid walls. Anyone have some sort of over-view map? That would be the best. I think I am going to go try and use noclip to get an overview so I can draw out the walls easier. GIANT IMAGES.

So I got to thinking about how to start the game differently. FYI I might spoil the beginning of the game a little bit. As it stands, you really start the game when you emerge from the tunnel out of Helgen. At that point, you can pretty much do as you please, coming back to Riverwood if you want to start getting the main quest going. Instead of starting like that, I would like to see a mod that gives a number of different starting points to the player, perhaps allowing the player to start the main quest by talking to the court wizard of Whiterun about the stone in the barrow. I have a number of ideas for alternative beginnings. Some actually start the player off in a better position than in Vanilla, others start the player in a significantly worse position and still some ideas just start the player off in a 'different' position, with its own pro's and con's. Easiest start: Player begins as a neutral Thane. Has an essential companion, a small fortress with fully stocked home, about a half dozen guards and a small farm attached with a half dozen servants and peasants, perhaps a number of horses. The player also has the major cities already added to the map and perhaps starts with everything at level 20. There can be some excellent background info as to why the player is a Thane to flesh it all out. Player also gets income of 500 gold per day. Easy start: Player begins as a land owner with a farm and mill. Has a non-essential companion, a horse, set of decent weapons/armor but not as much of a stat boost, but can clear out a nearby cave to get rolling. The player also owns a home, has a pair of workers who give a small income of 100 gold a day whenever the player asks for it. This farm also has a pair of guards posted to it. Somewhat easy start: Player starts as stall owner in major town/city. Has one worker who gives daily income of 200 gold per week, starts with 2000 gold and basic equipment equivalent to what you get in Vanilla. Also starts with small shack in a major city. Neutral start: Player begins as hunter/mercenary/wanderer. Has basic weapons/armor roughly equal to what you get from Vanilla start, but begins in different location, perhaps has a non-essential companion. Neutral start: Player is home owner in major city Has 1000 gold, small house, but no equipment besides a sword and clothing. Neutral/slightly harder Start: Player begins as a bandit. Starts with basic bandit weapons/armor and a few weak, non-essential companions. Has a small bounty in all cities. Hard start: Player is a peddler. Player starts with normal clothes plus one piece of armor, a random weapon, 100 gold, a dozen random clutter items of low value and starts at a random farm/mine/mill instead of a city. This farm/mine/ whatever is distant from any city. Harder start: Player is a beggar in a major city. Player starts with a dagger, beggar clothes, one random food item and a dozen gold coins. Very hard start: Player spawns in cave with a weapon, crummy clothes and has to fight their way out past basic monsters. Perhaps the player was knocked out by a bear/troll and now has to escape while avoiding said bear/troll, or just outrunning it. Delayed start/very hard start: Player is a bandit slave. This was originally intended to be used with adult mods, but I am going to leave that out, it obviously doesn't need to be an adult mod thing. Player starts without any items, has bandits all around but they are neutral. Player is given a series of small quests, like cooking food, entertaining the bandits and foraging around their camp and having to bring them items. The player will get some little opportunities to steal some things here and there, but for the first few days of the new game, the player is basically a slave. To make it even harder, the player will have to do some quests that involve poaching animals/robbing people, effectively giving the player a small bounty in each city even though you are forced to do it, or get attacked.

I would personally like to see more in the way of Draugr priests. Seeings as I would imagine the ancient nords were heavily based on viking culture, I also imagine them burying their dead with more personal belongings. Perhaps a draugr horse could attack the player? Draugr war dogs? Another idea would be for for some sort of Draugr trolls to patrol around as a higher level enemy.

Meh, the whole "you can only learn when you are young" thing is somewhat true, but a little over-blown. As with learning anything, you just need to make the time commitment and make babysteps. When the mod tools come out next month (hopefully!), I would just fiddle around with it for a while. Anywho, I like where your idea of making cities deeper is going. When I go to solitude, I immediately notice some places that are boring, empty or just need something more. For instance, there are some market stalls just past the first few buildings inside the city, but they seem boring and alone. A market is supposed to be a lively, colorful place. Lets add a music player that takes tips, a few more specialized stalls and perhaps a small side alley with a fence for thieves. On the subject of adult material, its not terribly hard to make mods modular. I love adult material, but would make it an optional component, or possibly something that needs to be downloaded separately and uses the main city file as a base.

I think Winterhold would not be completely rebuilt, but I feel like some ruins could be built into the cliff-face nearby and later re-inhabited after a series of quests. Perhaps the east-empire company could be involved seeing as Winterhold used to rival Solitude in greatness?

How could cities in Skyrim be bigger, better and more glorious? So I think we can divide the cities of Skyrim into two camps. Cool, unique cities and small, glorified villages. Heres some ideas I came up with off the top of my head. Cool Unique cities: Whiterun - Big in size and it has a lot of sprawl around it with the nearby farms and other outposts. Adding another wall layer would make the city truly huge. But what would be put there? More farms? Markarth - Very vertical in nature, I would like to see a reservoir/lake put in front of the front gate with building lining the side and a large staircase out front that needs to be climbed to gain entrance. Riften - I feel like this city needs to wrap around the lake more and expand out to the island that is inhabited by Goldenglow estates. It also needs to be more "double layered" with the canal running through the middle truly feeling like a parallel city full of rime and poverty. Solitude - I would love to see this city expanded down to the stables and encompassing the entire dock area. I feel like as the capital, it needs to be just larger, though it does feel like a capital right now, it could still be better. I also think that the blue palace needs to be a lot larger. Windhelm - It feels so cold and barren, I feel like it needs some warm places, especially in the gray quarter. This could help emphasis the contrast between cold and warmth a lot better. I feel like some parts of the city are just too barren too, like the bridge leading into the city. Small, glorified villages: Dawnstar: This city could be a lot more, I would expand the mining operations, expand the docks and possibly incorporate the nearby lighthouse into the city better. Also, it just needs to be bigger. Falkreath: This place needs a huge mausoleum sorts of like the graveyard in Windhelm which has alters placed into the stone. It also needs to have an even more active lumber cutting operation. Maybe even some treehouses as well. Morthal: I don't know what to do with Morthal. Give it some crannogs? Winterhold: I feel like there needs to be signs of some sort of effort to reclaim the city from the sea. Perhaps the player can get some quests to help fish some buildings out of the water. Also, the surviving buildings should more closely resemble the architecture of the College, or have at least a few ruined buildings resemble the college. So what ideas do you all have on expanding cities in Skyrim?