Archonon

Hey BadPenney, As far as I understand it patch 1.7 doesn't introduce any new bugs into the game. 1.7 simply adds the achievements for Mothership Zeta and fixes the crash on exit when you have Broken Steel. The two npcs I saw outside were Mama Thorton and Jay Hawkins. They did not spawn out there the first time I reached Shady Sands but when I reloaded the game nearby the town after my freeze they were standing nearby the area where the teleport marker is but off the road to the side next to the big pillar from the overhead monorail. A few minutes after noticing them Mama Thorton turned around and reentered the town through the front gates. As soon as I approached the gates I noticed my crosshairs were blue (As in I was allowed into the town) instead of red, which it should be since I hadn't talked to Lars and had no permission to enter the town. Lars wasn't there, he was sitting in a small chair off to the side and walking around a small patrol route. My theory is since Mama Thorton spawned outside when she reentered the town through the gate somehow she broke the conversation with Lars. I could never actually get that conversation after that when I reloaded since I was near the town with the save. I think I am going to try a cell reload and see if they spawn inside the town and I can get Lars' initial conversation to happen so I have permission to enter the town and not have them always go hostile on me. As far as Jay Hawkins, he never moved from the outside spot where he was spawned. It was like his AI packege never started or stopped flat after he spawned outside of town. Btw I never started any quests at all since I could never enter town without them going hostile. When I sneaked in to talk to Lars, trying to force the first conversation where he gives me permission to enter town, it still didn't appear. But I noticed I had a topic which mentioned Razlo dead by radscorpions but since I hadn't been on that quest, never entered the radscorpion cave or saw/knew who Razlo was at that point I thought I should let you know. I got 1.1 and will test it out in a clean saver and see if any of the problems persist. Nonetheless I suggest you look at Mama Thorton and Jay Hawkins because those are the two npcs I saw outside and may need some kind of fix. I'll give you additional reports as I test 1.1.

Well I didn't use any mods at all, only the official DLCs, and got the problems I got so I don't think it has anything to do with load orders, especially since none of the DLCs seem to add anything in this area. Also forgive my ignorance but from what I recalled of using Oblivion's Mod Manager, isn't it the lower on the list the esp is then it overwrites the mods above? Of course if this is flagged as an esm it should be loaded before esps because that might cause problems. But again I had no other mods so that wasn't the issue for me at least. The main problems seem to be from AI packages not working properlly, missing loot, and spawns outside the city limits. You mentioned something about moving the city marker outside the fence before, could this be the reason for the outside spawns? As leeonheart said, all this needs is a little polish to certain areas. Hope you can fix these issues soon :thumbsup:

Hi BadPenney, here's my initial bugreport. I am currently running the game with patch 1.7 and all DLCs (Minus Mothership Zeta which is scheduled to be released today) but no other mods. It is a contunued game howver I had never been to the area where Shady Sands is located so the cells loaded for the very first time. On reaching the town for the first time and running around to the entrance, I was greeted by Lars without any problems and entered the town. Once I began to move down towards the area with the garden my game froze completely though I am not convinced this mod was at fault. After rebooting my comp I reloaded an autosave near the town and circled again towards the main gate. On this reload I noticed Jay Hawkins and Mama Thorton outside the gate, they were standing to the left of the road (With the town fence in front of me) next to one of the pillars beneath the broken monorail. Mama Thorton however turned after a few minutes and reentered the town. Jay Hawkins however never moved from his place, although I talked to him asking him how he was, he said fine and that's all I could say. When I approached the main gate for the second time I noticed it wasn't red anymore but blue, as if I had permission to enter; which of course I didn't as I hadn't spoken to Lars yet. Lars however wasn't in front of the gate or anywhere in sight. I opened the gate and enetered the town, noticing Lars get up from a chair to the left and immediately he went hostile as did the rest of the town. I reloaded again and tested several wait periods to see if Lars would come to the gate. He would get up and do a small patrol around the area but never came to the gate or started the conversation. One time he was closeby, I entered the gate in sneak and talked to him before he got the chance to go hostile to see if I could get permission to enter the town that way. I noticed that there were several dialogue choices: I could tell him Razlo had been killed by Radscorpions even though I never met Razlo, never had a quest about Razlo or never saw his body. I could ask about the town and a few other choices I can't remember However I could not get the intro dialogue and as soon as I moved a few steps into town again everyone went hostile. I ran to the garden to see if it would freeze and it didn't so again I doubt this caused my earlier freeze. Here is my initial suspicion: Since Jay and Mama spawned outside, the moment she entered she took away the intitial conversation because the gates aren't supposed to open before I talk to Lars. Since she opened them before I talked to Lars then it broke the initial dialogue allowing me into town. So obvious stuff to check out: Jay and Mama spawning outside (Or running outside for some reason before I reached the gate) Lars' initial dialogue trouble Razlo dialogue prematurely appearing in conversation The bugs might have something to do with the bug of Lars' intro dialogue not occuring which might have to do with Mama and Jay spawning outside the gate (And maybe Mama entering the gate). Since I couldn't reach the gate before Mama went back inside I don't know if I would have gotten Lars' intro if I had approached before she entered town, but since she's not supposed to be out there to begin with it merits you looking into it. I was unable to see if Summer was in the bar or what, nor was I able to confirm the crash after the quest to save Tandi, as I wasn't able to really enter the town and begin any quests due to the Lars bug. But it also is good if you check that out as well. As soon as I can continue to test I'll report further bugs, Great job with the town!

Well I just noticed it was up on Nexus and got my copy, woohoo! I can't begin to thank you enough for all your hard work BadPenney; this mod has shown to have lots of focus, direction and consideration. I am amazed that you have accomplished so much virtually by yourself. Congratulations on your release and I truly hope that you can enjoy playing your own mod as much as we will. I'm definately giving you a kudos for such outstandig work. If I find any bugs or detect conflicts with anything I'll drop you a line if only so you can put it in your readme. I look forward to seeing this mod in action! :thumbsup:

Sorry I could have sworn I read in one of your posts that you use FOSE and as that would conflict with the new patch I thought to warn you. Nevermind then, my mistake :unsure: Anyway good luck trying to stomp those last few bugs! Btw, I don't know if you visit the Bethesda forums but the author of the Canterbury Commons Embiggened is doing a big town mod just like you are, if you have any questions regarding the problems that you are having and would like me to ask him on your behalf to see if he can provide any solutions then let me know what you would like me to ask. If you haven't found a solution to the AI problem for example (And God knows I hope you already have) I can ask if he has a clue what's going on, just let me know exactly what you want to know and I'll pass it along...of course if you go there you can PM FunkmastaD yourself hehe.

Well here is a description on one of the oldest vanilla glitches that might not have been solved with patches maybe this is related to the problem somehow? Sometimes the NPCs will go off the track of their movement and wander around the wasteland. This is usually caused by going back and forth through two areas which will load them in a different spot. Or attacking them in combat and leaving the area or having them chase you out of the area. I realize it doesn't strictly mention them freezing but it could be that when they respawn in a different area they become stuck somehow? Well I also know that sometimes modders need to get a little creative with workarounds for one limitation or another, so if something is currently working to have the npcs get back to their routines and not freeze up then that's probably the best way to go. On companions that I mentioned for Oblivion, I should mention that they were modded companions which would have the limit I spoke of. Technically speaking there were no real vanilla companions, unlike Fallout 3, so honestly I don't know how or even if the limitation of 8 companions I mentioned still applies here. I just spoke of it because it was similar in that all npcs froze on their tracks when I had more than 8 companions checked and as soon as I unchecked 1 and was back to 8 or less the frozen npcs would suddenly continue normally again. Sorry I can't be of more help but I know nothing of scripting or AI. :confused: Keep us posted if you manage to get all of it working. PS. If you go get 1.7 remember that FOSE has no yet been updated for compatibility with it. I assume you have the last version which was a compatible beta for 1.6 and it wouldn't work with 1.7

Hmm I remember running into a similar problem when playing Oblivion. Basically what would happen is that all npcs (Modded and vanilla) would suddenly stop on their tracks after I got a certain distance away from them; once I got within a certain range closer, they would continue about their business as usual. The problem I had it identified as the number of companions I had active within the game (Not necessarily with me, just active) and the number was above 8. Apparently there is some sore of problem with having so many scripts and AI packages running at the same time (In addition to all the regular game ones) and that would make them freeze. I found that if I kept my activated companions at 8 or less, the problem would go away. I know that this isn't the same but I wonder if it has something to do with the AI of your caravan escort quests? Maybe you don't even need to be doing the quest, maybe just having the quest or the scripts/AI for it ingame is enough to affect it? Mind you I know nothing about AI or anything like that, all this is speculation based on similar circumstances I had previosuly seen on the same game engine. On a possibly more positive note, a fellow board member suggested a way to fix the skin tone issue without having to use the FO3Edit method. Here's what he said: You can fix that one easily. Go to your documents folder, then to the my games folder in that, then the Fallout 3 folder. Open the file that is called Fallout. Press Ctrl and F at the same time and search for general. Once you find that section, add this line under it: "bLoadFaceGenHeadEGTFiles=1" (No quotation marks) Then it should be fixed. If you want to try that, I hope it helps. I also hope you can resolve that problem with the AI soon, what a pain some of this stuff is... :wallbash:

Sounds terrific BadPenney, if there are no other detectable problems then you might be seeing a release on the horizon. I wanted to let you know that patch 1.7 was very recently released over GFWL (Games For Windows Live), they have not uploaded the file to the site just yet but are working on it. I haven't gotten it yet but will in a few minutes, there have been no patch notes released so I don't know if it fixes any bugs or resolves the skin issue of modded npcs, all I know for certain is that it adds the achivements (And maybe perks) for MZ. I asked on the forums if anyone who installed the patch already knows if the skin issue is fixed but have not received an answer yet. So I'll let you know as soon as I know, unless you get the patch yourself. Anyway keep you updated and congrats on squashing the dialogue bug! :thumbsup:

The unofficial patch deals with a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the problems you are having, in fact the unofficial patch hasn't been updated since patch 1.2-1.3 was released. Quarn is currently working on an update which fixes a bunch of new stuff all the way to Point Lookout; however Quarn has expressed the desire to release his next update once Mothership Zeta is released so he can have the latest patch to work from. Given that he hasn't updated yet, I'm guessing he's waiting for 1.7. I do not recommend you make the file dependent of the unofficial patch however as many people don't use it. As for beta testers, you could upload to rapidshare or some domain like that. You can then accept a couple of beta testers via PM and send them the link in a PM. Once you get confirmation they have the file, you can then take it down. You can also upload the file to Nexus in an agreed time with your testers, let them download it from there and then block it so that no one else can get it. I haven't a clue what 1.7 will have, I hope it fixes the skin issue. However some patches only add the new achivements for the new DLC, but we should wait for the patch notes to see what it does. I'm sure you can get plenty of beta testers, just announce it here and pick and choose. However if you do decide to wait until 1.7 then don't begin beta tests until then. If not, then you can send for testers now. If you can't find any testers send me a PM and I'll help beta test for you.

1.7 will probably be released a few days before or the day that Mothership Zeta is released, it isn't out yet. You should try to make a clean save; I remember in the old days of Oblivion there would be problems when I updated a currently running mod, sometimes breaking the mod (Though I can't exactly recall my save getting corrupted but could have happened also). So I would have to unclick the older mod, save without the mod and then click the updated mod to have it work. You might also benefit by recruiting a beta tester or two, particularly people who might have different setups such as fakepatch, pre-1.5 games (1.1-1.4), and current 1.6 installed with no fakepatch. There may be a conflict if you are using FO3Edit to make it a master and fakepatch at the same time as FO3Edit was developed as an alternative to not use fakepatch. If you use FO3Edit, fakepatch is completely unecessary as fakepatch tries to use the same 1.4 exe adding the new scripts, etc that were implemented in 1.5; but some of the changes cannot be carried over such as the purified water of Broken Steel and the Tesla Cannon (They are simulated by other means), I'm also unsure but I don;t think all the fixes to the AI were implemented successfully by fakepatch. Fakepatch also had some other bugs which weren't really fixed because once FO3Edit was released with the Masterupdate mode, it fixed all the problems and did what fakepatch did with all the things fakepatch couldn't implement. Then once 1.6 came out, FO3Edit was no longer really necessary as it fixed most things, except maybe the skin problem (Some people say it's fixed, others no). I could definately be wrong with some of this info as I know nothing about this. I've never used fakepatch and I never got to use FO3Edit, so I updated directly to 1.6 when I got Point Lookout. You should take everything I've said with a grain of salt as all the info I provided is from what I saw in the forums so it could be incomplete or flat out mistaken. :ermm:

Damn double post! Anyway have you decided how you are going to release the file? Will it be in several files or one large one? How big will the mod be? Keep us updated! :)

Excuse me for not responding sooner but I'm having lots of trouble connecting to these forums specifically; so if I start getting problems again I'll continue to check for updates by seeing if you released it on Nexus. Hehe :whistling: I know the AI in the game can get kind of wonky from time to time but 1.5 and 1.6 did fix a lot of AI related issues so hopefully that will help in some way. Of course there is always 1.7 for Mothership Zeta, though I hope they don't mess with stuff too much since 1.5-1.6 supposedly introduced fairly good stability to the game. But hopefully patching up the GECK might also help. Anyway the town looks stunning! Can't wait to return to Shady Sands...Good Lord that was LAME... :ermm:

Hey BadPenney, have you asked on the Beth forums for assistance concerning the lod textures? I mean of you have no idea what's causing them to appear that is. Could their appearance be a load order conflict with another mod you have installed? I know that before patch 1.5 there was a problem where if you entered a new worldspce from the capital wasteland all the trees would for some reason appear floating above the air, it would be fixed by saving and reloading the game. With 1.5 they fixed that problem and the trees don't float in the air anymore, obviously this fix is included in 1.6 so maybe something involves this fix with your problem? What GECK are you making the mod with? The last GECK released was the 1.5 version. I could be just talking a lot of hot air as I know nothing about this; but if you made it with an earlier version of the GECK, maybe the 1.6 patched game requires the 1.5 GECK because of thi issue? Like I said I really don't know so don't pay too much attention to me here as I'm just taking wild guesses lol Anyway I hope you can find a resolution to the issue soon. Also thanks for the multiple videos you've made and posted here, they are really exciting teasers to torture us before release! :thumbsup:

Wow BadPenney that last video was terrific, it brought up a lot of memories from the original Fallout's escort quests! Shady Sands will definately be one of my favorite places to visit again and again in the Capital Wasteland. Thank you for putting so much effort in creating this fantastic new place :thumbsup:

It's great that you caught those problems with the NavMeshing, hopefully it won't be too big a pain to get it all in working order now. About the patches, what patch are you using then? 1.5 or 1.4? I doubt it is 1.5 due to the giant problems it caused with mods: crashes on save after leaving an area with new outdoor objects, disappearing static objects in outer cells and discoloration of new npcs' bodies of different races other than white. This was due to an incompatibility that was created with patch 1.5 where the game could not use non-persistant references inside an esp. The fix that was developed was either making your mods an esm, or make all your objects into persistant references (Which is a save game bloat nightmare), or using Elminster's FO3Edit which marks it as an esm flag but is still packaged as an esp. 1.5 however introduced other essential fixes such as companions now enter indoor cells with you without problems, a lot of stability was introduced into the engine and other misc fixes. 1.6 then fixed the crash on save and the missing static objects. I've heard reports that the discoloration on npcs is still there with 1.6 but others say it isn't so I don't know. For all purposes reports are that 1.6 allows modders to make mods the same as usual as before the problems with 1.5. Personally I use 1.6 since it's necessary for the latest DLC, so if you are making the mod with an earlier patch then I will have no problems running it. I really look forward to August then! On August 3 Beth releases its last DLC Mothership Zeta and now also Return to Shady Sands sometime early in the month too, a great beginning to the month indeed!