LithiumPower

Hi everyone! Glad to see lots of new faces on this thread. I haven't had a chance to review all the posts since the last time I was around yet but I'm glad there's been a good discussion going on. Very sad about the no-DLC announcement. Although I didn't think the Redguard DLC fake ad on steam was the next intended DLC I was really hoping for something to further the Civil War arc. It's a shame we won't get that now. Still it's been a fun ride.

I'm posting from my phone so I can't edit my earlier post for some reason. But I had one additional point of to add. The argument isn't whether Skyrim is stronger against the AD on its own but whether there even will be a war with Empires policy of appeasement. The empire hasn't gone to war already because firstly they don't have the motivation to break WGC and secondly because they are caught in the spiral of collapse and are too bogged down with internal problems, the skyrim rebellion is just one of which. What reason has the empire to want war in the first place and add further problems to their plate? They don't want to fight, the status quo suits them and suits the Thalmor. It doesn't suit the nords.

First you discredit Skaven's journal, then you use it as a supporting document - you can't have it both ways - make up your mind. I agree with you that Skaven's journal is not a source that is well researched - it's her private journal. The only reason it was raised in illustration was to show that a potential alliance between Hammerfell and Skyrim is an idea familiar to the redguard - even Kematu alludes to it. No one ever said that the journal shows beyond a doubt that there are negotiations or government level talks on going between the two - there aren't. You erected that notion as a strawman then went to town on it. No one has ever claimed that a Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance is guaranteed because Luah Al Skaven wrote about it. All we have said is that the journal shows that the idea is present in the minds of ordinary redguards and that the journal shows that the redguards hate the Empire. You know what, discard the journal completely. Forget about it. It's still entirely logical to argue that the Redguard would rather ally with a fresh, new government in Skyrim which has been through the same betrayal as Hamnmerfell than the very Empire that stabbed them in back. And please, don't insult us all by continuing to toe this ridiculous line that the Empire (the Legion, the Emperor - they're all one and the same) tried to help Hammerfell. They most emphatically did not. The AD attacked Hammerfell, the legion in Hammerfell consisting primarily of redguard troops like all other provincial legions, defended it. Then Cyrodiil was attacked. When the AD sacked Imperial City, the Emperor recalled all his legions to take it back - including the legion engaging the AD in Hammerfell. Decianus, not the Empire, not Legion Command, not the Emperor decided on his own to discharge some of his men as 'invalids' in defiance of his direct orders. Why would he need to do that if the Legion/Empire/Emperor wanted to continue the fight in Hammerfell? It would be completely illogical. This is the very reason why Hammerfell has a bitter hatred of the Empire. Legate Quintius admits this, along with the statement that he can only hope they reconcile. Like I can only hope that Palestine and Israel reconcile and stop murdering each other. And the muslim countries announce universal same-sex rights. And as for Skyrim doing nothing to help Hammerfell - it's even more ridiculous to imagine they'd be in a position - they were not an independent sovereign state - the rebellion was leaderless, Ulfric was in prison following the Markarth Incident - the Stormcloaks weren't organised to the extent they are now. It took years for the movement to gain momentum - skirmishes were being fought, Snow-Shods lost their daughter, Solaf of Falkreath got injured, etc etc. Ulfric came out of prison shortly before Torygg took over and he renewed his struggle immediately - demanding Torygg to declare independence as a condition for supporting him at the moot. Torygg agreed to consider it and then sat on it for years. You're absolutely right that we know nothing about the loyalties of High Rock. We do not. We do know however that the Nords have made at least preliminary overtures towards a potential alliance but they have not received a response as yet. This is not surprising because they are still nominally a part of the empire. We do know that their cities have been looted by corsairs and the legion has once again, to the surprise of no one, failed to protect the citizens. Is it because they have been called to shore up the border south? How do you imagine High Rock feels about that? Finally, I can't remember who made the point about a two-pronged invasion overland from Cyrodiil over the Jerall and Wrothgorian Mts, capture Falkreath and the Reach/Whiterun to resupply the army in Solitude or Dawnstar? Really? And is Hammerfell just going to sit around during this march across Cyrodiil and wait their turn? And what about Cyrodiil itself? There are still people there, counts and warlords of the type that were the Medes during the interregnum - are they going to just allow them to pass unchallenged? What about the imperial legions sitting in the south? Will they magically vanish with a stormcloak victory? The AD had the advantage of surprise last time and they lost their whole army by opening two fronts and never even reached beyond Imperial City. How will they ever manage a second two-pronged invasion around the side of the entire continent and one through it with everyone on war footing. And if they can invade Skyrim from the north, and also sally forth inland from the south - what have they been waiting for? Why will they be able to do this to an independent Skyrim but not one assimilated in the Empire?

The difference between Luah Al Skaven's journal suggesting the possibility of a Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance and Legate Quintius' 'hopes' expressed in the epilogue of his book is that one is a barometer of the sentiment of Hammerfell and the redguard people and the other is not. When Luah Al Skaven speaks of the alliance as something being considered possible in Hammerfell, she speaks with the authority of being a redguard from Hammerfell not an imperial sitting in Cyrodiil writing about his utopic fantasies. Of course Cyrodiil wants and hopes that Hammerfell will come to its senses and rejoin them but Hammerfell as seen from multiple sources hates imperials as much as Galmar or Ulfric do. Firstly, why is Report: Disaster at Ionith irrelevant? I brought it as an example of the challenges and difficulties of mounting an invasion across a wide expanse of sea. The points that I find similar are: 1. the difficulties of maintaining supply routes across the sea subject to bad weather. Sea of Ghosts is known to have extremely harsh weather. In addition, the Dominion would also face piracy and harassment from Hammerfell and High Rock along the coast. 2. Holding a lodgement or beach head in unfamiliar territory cut off from the mainland. Let's assume the AD can capture Solitude or Dawnstar. Both holds do not have much in the way of food (Lots of conversation in the Solitude Court is about food shortage in Solitude). What is the AD army going to eat? Will they have to make a choice between bringing additional troops or farmers from Alinor? 3. Akavir was a harsh province that Uriel V's army knew nothing about. Skyrim is similarly a harsh province with plenty of natural defences that an invading AD force will not know much about and that the defending Skyrim forces can use to their advantage. Ulfric does not suggest an invasion of Alinor as an immediate or even medium term goal. He lays down his priorities as 1. rebuilding skyrim, 2. preparing to fight the dominion on 'our shores' (suggesting he expects them to attack Skyrim by sea) and then mentions a possible invasion as a distant future thought. Secondly, Cyrodiil is not going to completely vanish if the Empire were to fall. They would break into smaller administrative units, some falling under the influence of the larger powers closest to them. It will not be a park for the AD to just walk through and lay siege to Skyrim. Nor will the rest of the provinces sit idly by if the Dominion begin to advance across Cyrodiil. They will form an alliance like they did the first time the AD advanced across Tamriel. I'm sorry, but you have given absolutely no evidence for the break down of Stormcloak/Empire/Neutral numbers you quoted. We have a list of stormcloak supporters in the Stormcloak document based on which we believe that a majority of the population of Skyrim supports the rebellion, the rest are neutral and a very significant but still minority number support the Empire. If you want to argue otherwise, you need to bring real numbers to the table. Ulfric refuses to live by the pacifist ideal of the Greybeards, that does not make him dishonorable. He did not swear their oaths. He went off to join the Great War, then he fought against the Forsworn, then he fought against Imperial oppressions. All his life he has done nothing but fight for Skyrim. The Dragonborn also learns to shout from the Greybeards and ALL of us use our shouts other than the worship of Kynareth. He's no more dishonourable than the most goody two shoe Dragonborn. Secondly, as far as Torygg is concerned. He had already pressed him to declare independence and had supported him at the moot on the understanding that he would declare independence as soon as possible. Torygg was King for several years and Ulfric saw that his interest in preserving the dignity of Skyrim was low compared to his interest in indulging Elisif. That is why he challenged him in 201. As I've stated previously. It wasn't that Torygg was playing golf one day and Ulfric just walked up and shouted him to pieces. Their political differences had been stewing since Torygg's own moot. There are a few more posts I'd like to address, but in a bit when I have some more time on my hands.

I loved every single minute of Dragonborn. I thought it was atmospheric and the sense of a nebulous evil building somewhere out of reach was well done. I reached Raven Rock late in the evening, tired from my journey and slept at the Inn only to wake up in a strange place with no memory of having gotten there, working the temple mindlessly and the strange hesitance of the townspeople on the subject of Miraak suddenly clicked into place beautifully. Miraak's chant, falling from the lips of hopelessly mind-controlled thralls was sinister and gave me chills every time I heard it. It instilled a sense of the palpable evil of the villain even when recited in the otherwise ordinary voices of regular civilians. Encountering Miraak for the first time and not seeing his face retained the threat and enormity of him as a villain. Apocrypha was spooky, unfathomable and overwhelming - just like Hermaeus Mora - the lighting, the sense of not knowing what's lurking behind the corner, stumbling over the rarest of tomes and forbidden knowledge of history and arcana was thrilling. And the ending too, knowing that Miraak had been entrapped by HMora in pretty much a mirror of your own journey was fittingly ominous and the awareness in the end, that all of your power and struggle was but a minor gambit played by Mora to replace one Knight on the chessboard with another was an amazing glimpse of the power of the Lord of Knowledge.

This is your opinion and personal feelings? :/ And I have noticed that many of your points, hehehe, even in your Stormlcoak summary are speculative. You're right. I remember that journal. The thing is, they can only hate the Empire to an extent. I mean, let's face it, Titus Mede II turned his back on Hammerfell, not the Empire. Esp the Imperial Legion saved Hammerfell. The Alik'r though brave were falling on their face until the Legion led the march to liberate Hammerfell. Only then were the Alik'r able to turn things around with the Imperials drawing agro. Without the Imperial Legion staying behind to help, Hammerfell would have surely either fallen or lost it's Southern half. I'm sure not all the Redguard hate the Empire. I'm not sure what about my comes across as my personal feelings. The history between the Empire and Hammerfell is very well covered in The Great War where most of my information on the events of the war is drawn. Which of the points in my Stormcloak argument seem like speculation to you, I'm perfectly happy to discuss any point and defend my position or adjust it as necessary. On the last point, the legion is synonymous with the Emperor in office. They are sworn to the service of the emperor as individuals and the institution is an arm of his government. While an individual soldier's loyalty might waver, the institution itself is a tool of the emperor. This stands in marked contrast to a militia raised to fight for their freedom - while they may have sworn fealty to Ulfric, they will not hesitate to cut his throat were he to give in to tyranny - they know that they can fight and win their freedom. The legion presence in Hammerfell (the Hammerfell Legion) was headed by Commander Decianus and we know that every provincial legion is largely drawn from the people of that area. This is evident from the make up of the legion in Skyrim and the legion in Cyrodiil as seen in Oblivion, therefore it follows that the legion in Hammerfell consisted largely of redguard troops. When the Emperor recalled the legion, it is logical to assume many of those redguard troops did not want to abandon their home to advancing Dominion forces. General Decianus sympathised with these men and discharged them as 'invalids'. (Why would he discharge them at all if they were willing to march to Cyrodiil with him?) He did this in defiance of his orders to march to the defence of Cyrodiil. The legion did not stay behind and defend Hammerfell. Legion veterans who had been discharged did. There is a huge difference between the two. If the legion wanted to continue the defence of Hammerfell, they could have ordered half the troops to march to Cyrodiil instead of all but they didn't. If they no longer had faith in the Emperor, they could have taken over the government in a coup. The emperor is only as powerful as his army after all. They did none of these things. They demanded the Hammerfell legion to withdraw to Cyrodiil. General Decianus, an individual, defied this order and discharged a portion of his veterans so they could continue the fight. It's completely disingenuous to imagine that the Legion Command or the Emperor had a say in this course of events. The reason you see imperial and even a few redguard troops mixed in with nords in the Skyrim legion is because after the war, some of the legions especially cyrodiil ones were utterly annihilated and the rest were less than half strength, they must have had to combine legions to bring them up to standard strength.

I have heard nothing solid about the so called Redguard DLC. I would appreciate links to information. Why would Hammerfell re-join the Empire that first recalled their legion from defence of their homes, then surrendered half their territory to the Thalmor, then renounced them when they protested? When and if a DLC comes out to add further to the civil war we can talk about it - bringing speculation into this discourse does not further either position.

The argument is not that the legion is spread thin having to be in Skyrim - the argument is simply that the region is spread thin trying to hold on to imperial territories - not just Skyrim, but also Bravil, Cheydinhal and all the 'fighting in cyrodiil' that various NPC immigrants complain about. That the 'legion is spread thin' is not a conclusion that we stormcloak advocates in this thread have arrived at independently, our argument is drawn directly from the analysis of the legion's situation by a former legion commander - Brina Merelis. What is she talking about in your opinion when she states that? What does the situation in Cyrodiil as pieced together from reports received from NPCs and gleaned from Cicero's journal suggest to you? Do you really think that Skyrim's rebellion is the sole issue threatening the continuance of the Empire? In your opinion, is it a symptom of weakness or the cause of it? Why? Are you really suggesting that 50% of the population of Skyrim ( one of the biggest and most populated provinces) are going to flee to High Rock? We have already given you the numbers of Stormcloak supporters from the game. Most of the prominent clans/families land owners and by extension their unseen vassals support Ulfric. Most nords encountered in the game which are representative of the vast unencountered population of Skyrim support the rebellion. The rest are weary of war and fighting and care nothing for either party - that doesn't mean they automatically support the Empire. How do you suppose the Dominion will invade by sea? Do you have a logical explanation of how they'll manage to support this invasion? I urge you to read Disaster at Ionith. We argue that an invasion of Skyrim will be too difficult for the Dominion, if you're going to refute that argument I'd like to read how altmer can succeed where Uriel V failed. Secondly, none of the information upon which I based my previous post is 'meta' except for that one last reference to real world history, remove that and the point still stands. The entire history of the Mede Empire and the end of the Septim Empire is available for a character to read in Skyrim and form an opinion. Anyone in Skyrim is perfectly capable of perceiving the demise of the Empire without needing to have played through the games on their 21st century computer/console. The rest of your speculation about future DLC and where the developers will take the story next has no bearing on the question of the civil war. You claim that a united empire has a better chance against the Thalmor. In light of all the evidence we have piled before you of the empire's spiraling failure, what is your counter argument? Please explain with facts and analysis why the Empire stands a better chance.

We can see a clear pattern since Martin Septim's death of the Empire safeguarding the centre at the cost of the provinces. They withdrew forces from Summerset Isle and Morrowind in the beginning, leaving both vulnerable to Thalmor and Argonian advances. It then ignored Valenwood and Elswyer, allowing both to fall to Thalmor machinations. So, even before the start of the Great War, the Empire is down to four provinces - Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim. Great War begins, Cyrodiil is attacked - and Titus Mede recalls legions fighting in Hammerfell to defend Cyrodiil. Because Cyrodiil is devastated, Titus Mede decides unilaterally without consulting Skyrim or Hammerfell that they are not going to fight any more, selling both down the river to secure peace with the Thalmor. Hammerfell rebels and is renounced. Skyrim starts to rebel. The southern part of Cyrodiil (furthest from the centre and long neglected) falls to unrest and lawlessness - Bravil, Cheydinhal. Cicero's journals tell us that High Rock is also troubled. You would have to be completely blind not to see that the influence of the Empire is shrinking decade by decade, city by city until only IC remains. It's a text book collapse. It's not going to majestically renew from its own ashes - that's not what happened when Martin Septim died - Titus Mede I rose as a conqueror in Colovia, took control of the Imperial City and declared himself emperor. Hammerfell is not going to throw in their lot with an obviously shrinking/collapsing Empire that can't even guarantee law and order in its own cities. Neither should Skyriim. The Thalmor are not chewing at their bits to invade - they are playing the divide and cripple game because they don't have manpower to front another invasion - their armies were annihilated. There has to be another power that takes over the Empire to lead Tamriel anew. Maybe a dlc will declare it to be the Dragonborn. Maybe there'll be another enantiomorph between the dragonborn, Ulfric and Tullius and a new Lorkhan deity will take Talos' place in the pantheon I can't say. It's far more likely that with Skyrim liberated, Cyrodill's disintegration will follow. Cheydinhal, Chorrol and Bruma are likely going to fall under Skyrim's influence and then become annexed. Anvil and Skingrad will become absorbed into Hammerfell. Bravil and Leyawiin will come under Thalmor influence but the Mede Empire is literally dead. They created 200 years of lore to firmly establish the collapse and then finally killed Titus Mede in the game (doesn't matter if your DB didn't do it, it was still accomplished by an anonymous listener as per Bethesda's traditional way of dealing with sidequests). The basic theme of the whole series is 'The Fall of the Empire'. As far back as Morrowind, they've been building up to it, hinting towards this inevitability. See the Talos avatar character Wulf's lines. Lots of dialogue in Oblivion establishes how unrest is growing in the peripheral provinces in contrast to the wealth and decadence of the centre and now finally we are witnessing its death throes in Skyrim. You would have to ignore real world history, you would have to ignore TES history, you would have to ignore the themes in at least three previous games to argue that the Empire is magically going to be restored if only Ulfric is killed and by then you might as well argue that the new emperor will be Doctor Who in the Tardis.

Which ENB is that?

You have to cleanse them all in order to get Thorn Crag-strider's help. In my game, the battle was bugged in that Miraark never killed the dragons. I managed to kill him, the cutscene with H.Mora happened, I looted his body, got the quest award and when I tried to exit through the altar - "you can't leave while enemies are near". Dragonrend didn't work, had to console kill the three dragons in order to be able to return to Solstheim.

Oh I agree completely with that. And faction prerequisites, I don't like how any idiot off the street can be archmage without knowing a thing about magic. etc etc. I never get attacked by H&H, nor find them trying to eat travellers, maybe they feed on bandits, there's loads in those parts. Innocent until proven guilty!

Nedes were the people who were settled in Tamriel when the nords arrived, proto-imperials. Hjalti Early-beard (a very nordic name) was supposedly born in Breton. I don't think that means he was breton but he referred to himself as 'born of the north' that could mean Atmoran but I consider that unlikely, it does however strongly suggest a nordic descent. Mechanically the dragonborn can be any race, and the official line is that he is directly blessed by Akatosh, like Alessia was (an imperial) and therefore bypasses racial limitations but the Voice is a strictly nord ability. I don't think it's racist for the OP to question the plausibility of a non-nord dragonborn. It's a good question. Remember that Bethesda's default choice for the dragonborn is a nord.

It is definitely shorter but those are all the points I could think of personally, if anyone has something to add, I'd love to take a look and incorporate those arguments. I wouldn't at all consider the documents to be a conclusive be-all and end-all of the discussion, but a summary of the main talking points so we don't rehash the same stuff over and over, that's all.

From an in-lore perspective, where is this vampire vs werewolf vendetta stemming from? Is there a basis for it in TES lore? TES vampires are not always villainous. I for one remember, Janus Hassildor defending his people personally from hordes of Daedra while other counts hid in their castles and the tragic tale of Lord Lovidicus' doomed love. There's Sybille Stentor, a well respected court mage steadfast in her loyalty to her court. There's Hert and Hern eking out an honest life together. There's Valerica who gives up everything to stop her own husband's evil plan of world domination. None of these people are perfect, but they are not evil by any stretch. Also, I find it disturbing that you consider offensive body odour grounds for cold blooded murder when everyone in Skyrim is literally caked in dirt. Vampires are not decomposing, why would they stink? If anything they'd have less B.O. because they don't perspire! Finally, as a fellow female I personally find your resistance to a pretty face fascinating! I fell immediately for the damsel in distress and now we're married and have three children. :blush: