DSPiron
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Posts posted by DSPiron
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-...wow, the Nexus boards really don't like people jumping back and forth, snip-
i can only go on my own experience, and i am being entirely honest with you when i say that i have not seen any evidence that tells me that vortex is not a "proper" mod manager and i have to put "proper" in place like that because it is not my terminology.
my test is this; keeping it simple;
does vortex install a mod into a game i choose correctly. the answer is yes.
what i don't say is - does it install a mod into a game i choose using a method i choose. the method is secondary to my requirement. i think that's where the argument exists, which is not where i am focussed.
my own very simple test shows me that if i follow the rules vortex expects, just as if i follow the rules for nmm/mo/mo2 etc., i can achieve what i want without issue.
i am not going to drop into the rabbit hole of semantics, because, i don't need to do that. obviously i speak for myself and only myself and i have no problem with other people coming to different conclusions, but, i like evidence. 30 years in IT trained me to ask for and expect evidence. not opinion, not fallacy, not "i don't like it", just very simple evidence.
i keep reading the forums, and the git hub pages and i read when bugs are solved - exactly as i do with the ufo4p team and their bug tracker - its how my mind works. please don't think i am accusing people of wrong doing, i am not, i am coming to my own conclusions, nothing more than that.
Using your definition, no mod managers install mods correctly. At least, none that are for Bethesda games.
No mod manager is able to put the mod into the correct spot in the load order. Vortex is the closest, but it will inevitably go wrong as sorting a load order can't be done automatically.
Your definition for any Bethesda game mod manager should be "Does [mod manager in question] install a mod's files into a game I choose correctly, and allow me to correctly place it's 'plugins' in the load order"
Vortex technically passes, but it's by forcing it to do something it's not intended.
If you haven't seen the evidence then you must be blind. There are plenty of people whose load orders aren't sorted properly by Vortex, and can't be sorted.
As someone with 30 years in IT, you should know that this quantity of issues signify a serious issue with the program.
That's your evidence that no amount of modifications, no amount of rules, will ensure LOOT can sort properly.
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In response to post #72457373.Both sides are rather dismissive about the other, think that their method is better while the other shouldn't be used, and share the same site.Augusta Calidia wrote: This celebration of Vortex has devolved into a totally unnecessary fight between those who want to play games and those who want to play load order. There's room for both in the big, beautiful modding universe. Can't we just agree to disagree and get on with our lives?
People who use Vortex to sort will eventually use mods from people who feel mods should be manually sorted, and vice versa.
One side feels that LOOT's issues can be handled by a user making new rules there.
Another feels that LOOT's issues are intrinsic, and need to be handled afterwards.
One side feels manual sorting, and drag-and-drop sorting have been in Vortex awhile.
Another feels manual sorting and drag-and-drop are not in Vortex and never will be.
One side just wants to play the game, and not mess with the load order more than needed.
Another just wants to play the game, and knows that a good load order isn't made by LOOT.
And I could be completely wrong on all that. *shrug* -
Looks more like it's assumed,
It seems pretty clear the Nexus is out to change the standard of how the user sorts mods (or, more specfically, the 'plugins'(.ESM/.ESP/.ESL files) of mods), and it just appears like there is no good reason.
Because the reasons listed are either;
- Were already present without Vortex,
- Won't actually happen with Vortex
- Make no sense at all no matter what
Then, hopefully more users will send LOOT rules to the masterlist, and LOOT will able to sort mods with fewer instances of needing to be corrected.
That will never happen. Anybody who knows how to sort 'plugins' don't want to put up with explaining to LOOT how to sort 'plugins', assuming it is even mechanically capable of that (The fact that LOOT's load orders still don't match most competent load orders suggest that it's technically impossible. (Or they are also up their own ass and are insisting on a configuration that doesn't work. ...I feel it's more polite to assume the former.))
And anyone who isn't turned away probably doesn't know enough to be a good help with other users orders.
Answer (emphasis mine, for those just tuning in.):can i ask how is the integration with loot compromised in the scenario above? I am taking the use of the word compromised in this context, to indicate that loot's function has been somehow broken, or, at least, mis-used.
is my understanding of that wrong? again, thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.
The point of having LOOT integrated is for it to mess with your load order.And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order.
Disabling LOOT's sorting makes it like other mod managers, but with a more cumbersome sorting mechanism:
- You are still setting rules.
While setting a rule can be as easy as dragging a
to another , you still have to confirm each one. - and you have to remove rules if you decide they aren't needed
- And, probably most importantly, the rules don't guarantee the dragged mod will be after the one it was dropped on.
Ideally this position is just as good, but in reality it hasn't been tested, or it's wrong, but there wasn't a rule against it
(If you did run it, did the plugin go where they supposed to? Great, now try that with 150, then 240[/i'm being sarcastic, and while there have been reports of successes with more mods, there have been reports of NMM not falling apart on users. NMM will still encounter issues, and Vortex will still hit mod sets it can't sort.)
In short, what they want is to "micromanage" the load order, as it's a quicker, simpler, and more intuitive way to get it right, rather than trying to figure out to get LOOT to do it right.
If the user doesn't know how to get it right, then they need to learn how.
If they are using Vortex and doesn't know, then they'd need to learn how to use Vortex\LOOT and how to sort their load order through Vortex\LOOT, as most info on sorting load orders require the user to "micromanage".
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...erm,
* Notices the 'Filter by plugin thing*...
...Well. Dang, that would pretty much do part of the job I was thinking of.
I was more thinking of a feature to showed the reasoning behind each 'plugin' being put where they are in relation to a queried plugin.
The 'Manage Rules's 'Set Rules' list only shows the rules attached to a plugin.
The 'Manage Groups's window only shows groups in relation to other groups, while sorting the 'plugins' table by groups doesn't show if another group is after because it is supposed to be, or it's just not part of the same chain
And there is nothing in Vortex saying LOOT masterlist's rules
But, in retrospect, the the first two can used collectively, and LOOT might just be a list of mods, rather than set of rules.
While not completely superfluous, I'm less convinced that it's that necessary... -
Most importantly, we don't have any problem with people saying "I prefer the old method to the new method". The point of contention comes about when the old method is presented as the best method merely on the basis of it being "the old method", without any logic to support that argument.
Manual sorting is just taking a 'plugin'(.ESM,.ESP,.ESL) and dragging it into its position on a list. This, of course, opens up issues if the user doesn't know where the mod belongs. Thus Vortex's automatic sorting method.
However, this might not put the mod exactly where it needs to be, or the user is experienced, they might know a better spot.
Changing a load order in Vortex/LOOT is less simple and less intuitive than manual sorting, as the user must add a new rule (or two), or a assign the 'plugin' to a group, so LOOT can correct the load order.
This adds a layer of obfuscation, as the rule/group assign might not work. Perhaps LOOT overshot it and put after several others. Or its not moving the 'plugin' at all. Or there's some other rules/grouping that require 'plugin' to be before the other one, causing a cycle of rules.
None of this is insurmountable, perhaps it all might be avoided if the user thinks less of a list, and more a network of positional relations between 'plugins'.
But manual sorting still avoids all of the above,
and so the user can focus on what comes after:
•Testing, (•Maybe finding out that they were wrong, and •Moving the 'plugin' again), and •Moving on to the next 'plugin'.
Granted, I'm not that big of a mod user, I just, try to follow this discussion.
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Is there a feature that visually shows the rules the affect a 'plugin'(.ESM,.ESP,.ESL)?
Like either showing a list of rules,
a list of plugins that have rules/group assignments connecting them to the plugin in question and the rule/groups determining that position,
Or, (I think this might be the best version?), a thing that you click, then click a plugin, and it updates a 'Relationship' column on the 'Plugins' table with whether it's a Rule or a Group, and whether it came from the user or LOOT
Does such a feature exist? Should such a feature exist?
Mostly want to get second opinion before I give this suggestion through the Send Feedback feature.
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Also, if you want something at the bottom of the load order, it's just as easy to Assign it to the Dynamic Patches group, and there it is, automatically at the bottom of your load order, and if you have several plugins assigned to Dynamic Patches and Mod B needs to LOAD AFTER Mod A, then just make a rule, or just DRAG AND DROP Mod B below Mod A, and accept the rule.
Erm, they did that. Or rather, they made a new group and set that to load after the 'Dynamic Patches' group, which should have same effect, right?
I've placed the compatibility patch plugin in a "late loader" group, but it still shows up close to the top, with automatic sorting enabled, and after clicking "sort now".
(as a side node -- the "locked to index" setting doesn't work, I can't de-select "automatic")
Here's the group priority order, with the "late loader" group placed last:
But the only difference it made was to slightly re-arrange other mods, while not actually caring about putting the compatibility fix last.
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And I'm pretty sure Tannin's point is:Absolutely no mod needs to load last.
Except the times when they actually do...
My plugin list is a good example.
It contains several plugins that conflict with each other, but I have a compatibility fix plugin that absolutely needs to load after the other conflicting plugins to fix them.
Your compatibility plugin doesn't need to load after every mod.
SpringCleaningCompatibilityPatch.esp only needs to load after the ones you've marked in red.
However, this is weird; Putting it in a later loading group should've worked, at least, based on what little I know.
I'd check to see if any of the plugins that load after it are in the 'User Interface', 'Items', or 'NPC & Faction Overhauls' groups, as those aren't set to load before your 'Late loader' group, and thus can be allowed to load after.
In fact, if you know which mods disrupt it, you can just simply set rules for the patch to load after for each.
A recent feature is the ability to batch add rules buy clicking the dependency icon, then edit, then check every mod you want it to load after.
I hope this helps.
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In response to post #72201748. #72201883, #72202448, #72202563, #72202773, #72203258 are all replies on the same post.YulexHaruka wrote: Ok I am seriously not ok with this. NMM a mess? then what the hell do you call the hot garbage that is vortex? You assholes forced the api out of availability for NMM, a mod organizer which, until today, I had NEVER had any issues with! In so doing! you twats trashed a mod setup that I have had for 5+ years! 5+ years of painstaking fine tuning for my twitch channel! Now I have to sit here for the next several days! fighting with trash vortex! Just so I can go back to my f***ing job! One thing is for certain, never again will I endorse ANYTHING made by nexus devs. You screwed me over, betrayed my trust, and made me lose a good chunk of my livelihood in the process -_-Dark0ne wrote: Deary me. I'm not sure which is worse - your potty mouth, or your inability to read instructions.YulexHaruka wrote: I can read instructions ^_^ Question is why are you forcing us to use a mod organizer we want no part of? -_-YulexHaruka wrote: no comment? of course not smh.Dark0ne wrote: If you had read, you would know we haven't forced anything on anyone, you simply need to update your NMM to the latest community version. "Smh" indeed.YulexHaruka wrote: Like I said, I did read, however, nexus has broke NMM somehow and continues to reject API tokens. ^_^' You say one thing, but the actions taken say another.
You should probably specifcally mention that you got the community edition, that one on github, or else they will think that you are using the last official Nexus release, because plenty, plenty of people seem to miss that.
I have doubts they will help directly if that's the case, as they are no longer supporting NMM, and have passed it off to the community to handle.
If they do help, it will be by assisting the current NMM development community in fixing whatever issue is causing the community edition to not handle the API in cases like yours.
EDIT: And I should read closer myself, as the above statement does kind of imply that that's what you did.
Overall, the above was poorly thought-out way to say "Either you don't have a community version, or your issue might be with the community version (at most, there might actually be an issue with the site's API, which the staff doesn't know about)
It seems more likely a bug than malicious action. -
In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678, #72145908, #72146263, #72146413, #72146538, #72146543, #72147408, #72147963, #72149828, #72149938, #72150433, #72151803 are all replies on the same post.@soupdragon1234Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D
Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).
In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.
I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!
Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issuewolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.
Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting
There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.
That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.
I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.ACEAidan wrote: Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.Tannin42 wrote: Vortex lets you sort plugins by the category of the corresponding mod. If you want to see your plugins ordered by what category they are in you don't have to change their load order at all, you just enable the "Mod Categories" column and then sort by that.
But the load order, which determins the mod index, should only be used to resolve conflicts. For users, especially those who don't know all the conflicts between their plugins to try and load order plugins by category can be completely counter productive.Elianora wrote: It doesn't really matter how well I explain my point of view in this matter. Every time it gets completely disregarded and I get offered a "solution" that is not a solution to my situation or preferences at all.
I'll quote Robbie here:
"It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did."
Hence I said I'll use NMM or hope someone makes an extension like that. You can never make everyone happy.Dark0ne wrote: Your preferences are pretty niche, Elianora, but I still love ya :Dwolfgrimdark wrote: I do think it is interesting that when I visit these news releases, check the V forums, or I am in various discord channels that this seems to come up (load order).
I read the link and it all makes sense from a general viewpoint.
It is also clear others would like another option.
That being said I do respect the decisions made. I may not agree with them, and apparently others do not either, but their tool, their site, their decision.
I choose to stay with V and live with the sorting even though I still run into problems with the auto-sorting and have to over-ride to fix them but at least its a small number (7 out of 298 mods currently that I have to over-ride).
Elinora did make a great point. For me, and my anal/OCD tendacies, I like sorting all my many plug-ins into groups [EDIT: My own groups not the default categories. Meaning I just clustered the plug-ins into groups visually outside of specific needs for specific order]. I always did that in NMM. It may not be optimal or best practice but I miss that. Sure I could do that in V but man it would take a lot more work to do so.
I do know others gave up on it over the load sorting. Granted its a tiny number compared to over all users but 3 folks on the discord I am on all tried it and two weeks later, after much swearing over the load sort, dropped V and went back to NMM. These are all veterans who know what they are doing and understood how to manage V over-rides. They do testing, often need very specific orders, etc.
Anyhow would be cool if there was some way to add an extension or plugin to V to allow for this for those who want it. Although I understand for most casual users V works fine for the reasons outlined in the article linked to WIKI.
Mod the mod so to speak :)Elianora wrote: In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978, #72145133, #72145678, #72145908, #72146263, #72146413, #72146538, #72146543, #72147963 are all replies on the same post.
Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D
Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:
ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.
CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).
In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.
I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!
Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!
wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue
wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.
Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.
BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting
There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.
That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).
Robbie922004 wrote: Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.
Elianora wrote: The answer in the wiki doesn't really give a good argument, other than "Well it's easy because you get a stable game". It's actually horribly cumbersome to create tons of rules and groups as a power user. I **KNOW** how to make a stable game. I have unique situations that most users do not and I don't need Vortex's help with a stable game.
I know the auto sort, LOOT and community created rules work well for 99,8 % of users, but for us veterans, it's frustrating. For example I like to sort my load order in categories, depending on how I use my own mods, personal edits and different testing setups. Weapons are loading after each other in the load order, same as armours, environmental mods go in another location. Some mods need to load after others only in specific testing scenarios. I have absolute idea what conflicts with what and know exactly where everything goes and how I need to sort it. I have unique versions of popular mods (for example, removing AWKCR.esm as a dependency from armour mods) and my custom patches for things. It's extremely frustrating to try to sort my load order My Way™ in Vortex.
ACEAidan wrote: Robbie, if you actually read the goddamned link that BigBizkit sent, you would know that LOOT sometimes f*#@s up the load order. In those cases, you need to rearrange the load-order to make sure a specific plugin is loaded after another specific plugin. For veterans, that is easy and simple. However for beginners, and intermediates like me, it's not that easy. Vortex makes it super simple, by having an option to set a rule for that plugin to always load after the other plugin.
Tannin42 wrote: Vortex lets you sort plugins by the category of the corresponding mod. If you want to see your plugins ordered by what category they are in you don't have to change their load order at all, you just enable the "Mod Categories" column and then sort by that.
But the load order, which determins the mod index, should only be used to resolve conflicts. For users, especially those who don't know all the conflicts between their plugins to try and load order plugins by category can be completely counter productive.
Elianora wrote: It doesn't really matter how well I explain my point of view in this matter. Every time it gets completely disregarded and I get offered a "solution" that is not a solution to my situation or preferences at all.
I'll quote Robbie here:
"It's okay that that they don't want to add the feature, and it's okay that they believe in Vortex as a program the way it is. Absolutely no beef with Nexus for going in the direction they did."
Hence I said I'll use NMM or hope someone makes an extension like that. You can never make everyone happy.
Dark0ne wrote: Your preferences are pretty niche, Elianora, but I still love ya :D
wolfgrimdark wrote: I do think it is interesting that when I visit these news releases, check the V forums, or I am in various discord channels that this seems to come up (load order).
I read the link and it all makes sense from a general viewpoint.
It is also clear others would like another option.
That being said I do respect the decisions made. I may not agree with them, and apparently others do not either, but their tool, their site, their decision.
I choose to stay with V and live with the sorting even though I still run into problems with the auto-sorting and have to over-ride to fix them but at least its a small number (7 out of 298 mods currently that I have to over-ride).
Elinora did make a great point. For me, and my anal/OCD tendacies, I like sorting all my many plug-ins into groups [EDIT: My own groups not the default categories. Meaning I just clustered the plug-ins into groups visually outside of specific needs for specific order]. I always did that in NMM. It may not be optimal or best practice but I miss that. Sure I could do that in V but man it would take a lot more work to do so.
I do know others gave up on it over the load sorting. Granted its a tiny number compared to over all users but 3 folks on the discord I am on all tried it and two weeks later, after much swearing over the load sort, dropped V and went back to NMM. These are all veterans who know what they are doing and understood how to manage V over-rides. They do testing, often need very specific orders, etc.
Anyhow would be cool if there was some way to add an extension or plugin to V to allow for this for those who want it. Although I understand for most casual users V works fine for the reasons outlined in the article linked to WIKI.
Mod the mod so to speak :smile:
N7R wrote: This is why I use the latest version of MO2. It has the features and flexibility I need when making mods/playing the game that Vortex currently does not offer. It would be nice if modules for more Vortex flexibility happen in the future, until then MO2 for me.
Dark0ne wrote: Your preferences are pretty niche, Elianora, but I still love ya :D
I know, bb :wub:N7R wrote: This is why I use the latest version of MO2. It has the features and flexibility I need when making mods/playing the game that Vortex currently does not offer. It would be nice if modules for more Vortex flexibility happen in the future, until then MO2 for me.opusGlass wrote: In a perfect world where every mod issue could be fixed by LOOT, dragging load order wouldn't be needed. But in reality, manual load orders are essential for debugging mod conflicts and that's way more cumbersome if LO is strictly rule-based. Not to mention custom LO & patching like Elianora mentioned.kinggath wrote: I agree with Elianora that having access to simple, drag-and-drop, manual ordering would be nice.
I use Vortex for my gaming machine, but for development - it's too cumbersome.
When doing things like upward-mod merging with XEdit, or trouble-shooting conflicts with mods, I can't have an auto-sorting system messing with the science. So I end up using NMM as a quick solution to updating my Plugins.txt file, particularly when I'm trying to do dev work.Zanderat wrote: ???? It already does. I have several rules set up. Also, it can do drag and drop if you want. Not sure why peeps keep saying it doesn't. In fact, you can turn off auto-sort altogether if you want. (Now as to whether or not any of that is a good idea, that is another question).soupdragon1234 wrote: I'm with Elianora except I use WB to manually sort plugins (it has some useful extra features as well which are too useful to do without) together with LOOT and Vortex's auto sort disabled.
I have my reasons mainly if theres a mod I'm not sure about/testing I want it last in the LO so it can't have its records overwritten by anything else once I'm sure everythings fine then I'll run LOOT and let it place it where it wants I'm not one of the fanatics who simply MUST have their LO exactly the way they want it because thats silly I'll trust LOOT when I'm done but not before. And before anyone says "You can do that with Vortex" yes you can (you can exactly the same thing with LOOT too because its basically inheriting its functions) but that means I have to create a custom load order rule for that mod, then make sure I remove it when its done, etc etc. A simple click of the mouse in WB and its done. No, its not a permanent sort but I don't want it to be.
Maybe I'm and edge case and then again maybe not. But I/we've been through all these arguments before and no-ones budging on anything so the whole thing is moot really.
I'm not 100% certain, but I think you can also put a 'Plugin'(.ESM/.ESP) last in your load order in Vortex by locking it's index to FD/FE...
Also not sure if that helps much, or if you'll even see this -
Just delete this whole block from the CSS of your personalized copy of the 'compact' theme. It's the part that changes how the main page header works
// show only icons on the toolbars unless the mouse cursor is hovered on them .mainpage-header { height: 32px !important; transition: height 250ms ease 500ms; .menubar { height: 100%; } } .mainpage-header:hover { height: 64px !important; transition: height 250ms ease; } .mainpage-header:hover .button-text { opacity: 1; transition: opacity 250ms ease 100ms; } .mainpage-header .button-text { opacity: 0; transition: opacity 250ms ease; }EDIT:
@tesnexus8
What you are looking for is here: https://www.nexusmods.com/site/mods/categories/13/ -
Yeah, I'm 80% sure Vortex isn't about having the load order being... human-readable.What I want to use it for is to sort mods that have the same load order priority, to sort them into a format that's easier to look through when enabling or disabling different ESP files from the same mod.
For example, Sorting this (imaginary) mod list:
- CatMod 1 - Purrfect kittehs
- Some sword mod
- Improved trees
- CatMod 3 - Longer tails
- Improved rocks
- CatMod 2 - bigger ears
- CatMod 1 - Purrfect kittehs
- CatMod 2 - bigger ears
- CatMod 3 - Longer tails
- Some sword mod
- Improved rocks
- Improved trees
Does the fact that Vortex can display your 'plugin'(ESM/ESP/ESL)s in any order you want, not just the load order, help?
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I'm... pretty sure that shouldn't happen, the "Locked to index" radio button should be clickable, as far as I know.Edit: Even the "lock mod index" options are locked and don't change when I click them, they're stuck to automatic
And, (late, but in case you missed it;) by "Drag-&-Drop", they mean dragging the icon under "Dependencies" (
) and dropping on another 'Plugin'(ESM/ESP/ESL) to start (and mostly complete) the load order rule-setting process, only needing an additional click to add a rule that states "the [dragged plugin or mod] must load after the [dropped-on one].A bit disingenuous to say that, as most other drag-&-drop interfaces mean just grabbing an item in a list.
EDIT: Wow, really late on that one....
I think it's safe to say that proper manual sorting is just not going to be a feature of Vortex, as it's not possible to have that, and still automatically sort new mods. (not without wrecking the manually sorted load order)
The idea being that:
If you have an example to the contrary, where you'd need, I don't know, fifty? rules to get your load order working, I think the people here would like to see it.The precise location of each 'plugin'(ESM/ESP/ESL) is irrelevant, so long as it's after the ones it's supposed to be after, and before the ones it's supposed to be before.
If Vortex's built-in LOOT sorter can't do the job right, it shouldn't need many rules to fix it.
and throw LOOT rule suggestions to fix it.
At least, I think this is the case.
Oh, also
I am a bit confused. Most of that information is available on the table on the "Mods" tab.The UI provides very little information in the overview. No mod version, author, install date, or anything.
I was originally going to point out that additional fields for the "overview" are also available by clicking a kinda-easy-to-miss gear icon.
But most things you listed were already present on my "Mods" "overview", although I'm not sure how many are on by default.
Like, I know that what mod a 'plugin'(ESM/ESP/ESL) goes to isn't on by default...
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As far as I can say, Vortex has been pretty solid, and I don't think any of my approx. 250 mods have failed to install.
But I also haven't checked to see if this is so, and I'm not sure where to begin. They all appear to be there when I open F4Edit.
I also haven't tried to install a truckload of mods all at once, and I don't think many people have.
I have swapped profiles and games without any issues, at least as a far as I know.
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I think it's as simple as going to the 'mods' tab and setting the 'status' filter to 'enabled'
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'Fallout 4: The Capital Wasteland' and 'Skywind' are still going strong.
(Road to Liberty didn't even get threatened by Bethesda, by which I mean they changed course before Bethesda even officially knew (A guy in RtL had asked a guy in Bethesda if porting audio is okay). As far as I understand, Bethesda's hands are tied as far a voices go, their contracts likely only allows for thier use in a specific game.)
(and Skywind has posts on it's reddit showing things being worked on, if you were asking if they'd disappeared within the last three or four months. -
Yes.
It wouldn't even be automagical:
By setting 'f4se_loader.exe' as primary, you are telling Vortex to use 'f4se_loader.exe' instead of 'Fallout4.exe' when you tell it to run Fallout 4. -
But in short: Even with a solution to this problem, it's too late to save Road to Liberty's iteration of the project. Everybody has moved on. End of story.
Not that we can't continue to discuss this matter and try to come up with ideas for the next team that wishes to give it a shot, though.
Also the issue with gibberish voice lines is that they probably would still be tedious, but I'm no expert, so I am not sure.
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But the Bethesda isnt the one who decided to have the mod be behind the paywall.
On the flipside, nothing is forcing anyone to get the mods behind the paywall.
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what if they did it the same way but didn't announce they would also be subcontracting modders from the community but, used community members anyway! would it still be paid mods?
<Yes.>
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Everyone wants a job doing what they love.
Also, if Bethesda had decided to do creation club on their own, no hiring people from the comunity, would you still call it paid mods?
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I think what he's saying is "So modders are wrong to try and sell their hard work, but youtube personalities are allowed to monetize their videos and even turn it into a job in some rare cases? Why aren't they called greedy for allowing ads to plague their work for money?"
Also, would Banksy be in the wrong if he sold reproductions and photos of his art, or even opened up a commission stall somewhere?
(And Pepsi is never called out for selling their soda, as no one in their right mind would argue that any beverage beyond water should be free)
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Are you sure it was $6.00 (480 MS Points) for a long time? This engadget article from April 6th, 2006 places it $2.50 (200 MS points), and Oblivion had only been out for a month at that point.
(also, wow, I didn't realize it was that soon from launch.)
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According to a handful sources I googled, Horse Armor was sold for $2.50 on the Xbox, and just $1.99 on PC. They were once $5. On April Fools Day, while the rest of the DLCs were half-price.
Edited for clarity. -
I think he answered that on the last page.
Well in the end, Modders want what users have. Money. when people see their $80 Game jumping up to $200 just to use mods I think its safe to say it will create enough ill will against greedy modders to pretty much kill off modding. Probably not completely but it will never be like it was, and I fully expect Bethesda to never release a creation kit to the public again.
From what I understand, he said that Creation Club will kill modding by turning public opinion against modding, as it will just be another form of microtransactions, making Fallout 4 (or 5) be a scam: Either you pay $60 for a gimped game, or you can pay hundreds of dollars to make it complete.
Thus, nobody will want to download mods, or get into the modding scene because public will see the modding community as just a group of rip-off artists. And then Bethesda stop supporting modding, as the community dries up.
I think that's what he said...
Vortex 1.0 Release
in Site Updates
Posted · Edited by DSPiron
Otherwise it will encounter issues if you install mods with 'plugins' that need to load before, or, after it. An installation with these issues shouldn't be considered correct.
NMM and MO2 are capable of re-arranging 'plugins' in the load order without LOOT, and I have no idea why you think you can't.
Vortex is barely capable of re-arranging 'plugins' in the load order. It can to some degree, but eventually you will need to "micromanage" your mods/'plugins'.
People who are effectively experts at managing the load order, creators of shining examples of a well sorted load order, have stated that you need to "micromanage" your mods/'plugins'.
EDIT:
First, Vortex's "drag-and-drop" and "manual sorting" isn't what other's are referring to when they "drag-and-drop" and "manual sorting".
The dragging and dropping isn't the important part, Vortex has it, but it's to create a rule.
Vortex allows for manual rule creation, but at best it raises the question of having the LOOT integration when the user can still ignore it like the other programs
What's being asked is the ability to place 'plugins'
where they need to be, no questions.
Not above where the user want it.
Not below where the user want it.
Exactly where the user wants it, where they know it works.
If the user doesn't know: the user should've learned how to sort 'plugins', or they are seeing if it does work there.
This has been said before.