sunshinenbrick

In response to post #24817394. #24817499, #24817884, #24822954 are all replies on the same post. I think demanding quality control and up to scratch programming IS the customer protecting themselves.

Endorsed!

In response to post #24784099. #24784289, #24785139, #24810294, #24811099, #24812869, #24813719 are all replies on the same post. This really can boil down to lack of action on Bethesda's part. Standalone mods for sale is not really so much of an issue as the market will level out, although quality checks and copyright is critically important. This will also allow the free modding community to stay alive because some modders will not (want to) meet these standards. EDIT: Whoa! Let's not forget the fact that every computer is different... imagine the customer support levels involved with that! Phew! The real problem as I see it is mods, like SKYUI, are essential for many other mods to function. Official DLC does split the community into threads as some people will own them or not, as in my case. This is bearable and can create diversity and experimentation, and is still based on choice providing the original release is fully functional on its own. SkyUI is different because it is part of the fundamental game design and functionality. Example: I want Mod B but this requires Mod A. Mod C needs Mod B. So now I end up having to buy Mod A and Mod B just to use Mod C. See how this traps the player into a cycle of hidden costs to playing their games. Factor in the online aspirations of companies it may mean that one player cannot play against another player... without spending money that was not part of the original contract the customer had with the developer. Yes the Sale of Goods Act, EULA and TOC must protect the Developer AND the Customer. Bethesda already ride a bumpy road on this issue as it is debatable their games are ready for release as it is. What Bethesda should have done is offer a contract to either employ or buy the SkyUI project in order to incorporate it into a patch that was then distributed to players for free. This way the people who made the mod are happy and everyone else sees the ultimate fruit of a collective effort. EDIT: In retrospect, regarding DLC such as Hearthfire, it could be argued that Bethesda owe some Intellectual Property down payments to many modders who helped them come up with the idea. Just a thought.

Endorsed!

In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904 are all replies on the same post. I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills. A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others. Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually. Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with. That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;D

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014, #24810319, #24810439, #24810499, #24810934, #24810994, #24811234 are all replies on the same post. Always the last word, sorry :/ I agree it is very hard to avoid with how the world is. That is not to say it will be the end of free modding altogether, and THAT is what we MUST fight for. Sorry again, I'm... just... getting a little emotional... here... Peace.

In response to post #24810179. #24810889 is also a reply to the same post. Hey that was brave! I have followed things the last few days and it has been a battle ground from every angle, and what you have just done is brave. I do not know you or pretend to but you have fought a corner that is worth fighting because this was a scary time for our future as free gamers. I do not know all the details or what was said but we must all be able to try understand each other and communicate otherwise what sort of community are we? In all honesty I have been pretty quite on these airwaves up until now but the last few days has made me meet some very like minded people who I have learned a lot from. I have noticed that all of our voices and contributions make a real difference. Let's stay together and make sure we stand for what we believe in the future. Skol (Cheers)

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014, #24810319, #24810439, #24810499, #24810934 are all replies on the same post. Thanks for all you points too, important we know how each other feel. L8r

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014, #24810319, #24810439, #24810934 are all replies on the same post. @ macintroll Ha! No, I don't like the idea myself either, just thinking aloud :) EDIT: I could cope with a banner. Beats some of the noisey video ADS you get, not that I see them when logged in. EDIT2: MODS?! I meant ADS... it's been a busy few days. Typo fixed now *blush*

In response to post #24809899. 100% agree. EDIT: Although I believe they could recruit people they think cut the mustard.

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844 are all replies on the same post. I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought. My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it. I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374 are all replies on the same post. Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it. In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Reading these posts and the threads I feel really positive that a system can be put in place that works for everyone. The crux of it for me is that people will more likely want pay for something they feel enriches their experience and it is something that they can feel a part of. I think the problem lies in that perhaps many users do not feel as though they are a valuable part of the community a lot of the time, they are seen as people who just consume without ever giving anything back. This is why the mentality arises where people do not feel like they owe anybody anything and this is now starting a vicious circle of mod creators not feeling appreciated and then feeling alienated and abused by their audience. I started a topic in the same place as this one called "is the word "user" negative". There the discussion seems to veer towards the idea that its not the word per se but the connotations that surround it. I think there needs to be a community approach to this and we all need to see that there is a lot of area in between a person who has never modded but loves the scene and a person who could make a living out of it. I am one of these people, I mod A LOT (nothing worth releasing), I tinker, test, debug and troubleshoot and when I can I contribute in every way I can, including when I can afford it, financial donations. I think that in addition to making the donate button a little more prominent (because people do at least think about it then), we also need to find a way to make everyone feel like they are part of it, can contribute, and are a valued member of the community. Even if they are just trying stuff out and then letting the author know about it. The respect has to come from both sides and yes I know there will be stroppy users and "entitled" mod creators but they are not the majority (yet) and can be challenged by other members of the community, and moderators if need be. How we do this, well personally I agree a UI change on the website will help but also I think (as stated in the topic I mentioned) a revamping of the endorsement system so that it is not solely about individual mods i.e. the mentality of "I have endorsed and that is my part done". Maybe an expansion of the endorsement system to allow us to endorse other members for other things, technical support perhaps, or diplomatic resolution of a sticky situation. This way each member of the community will be able to appreciate the value brought by the whole community and not just a select few individuals. Is it such an alien idea that a mod author might want to donate to a "user" because they found a problem and then helped them solve it?

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807719 are all replies on the same post. If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network. One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807344 are all replies on the same post. The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want. Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it. Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job. However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

In response to post #24806924. I think this was a common fear for further down the road. I was going to mention the fact that $1, which many people seem to laugh at, is A LOT of money in other parts of the world. Thank you for speaking up and sharing this point of view from first hand experience.

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969, #24804034, #24804529, #24804714, #24806699 are all replies on the same post. Again it would take (where are we now) at least 3 - 4 years before many major mods were stable enough and bug free enough to actually warrant people paying for them. This is not just down to the modders, it is the fact that Bethesda games usually need about 5 - 7 patches before things run as they were originally intended. The next games might have new game engine code and even a revamped sdk which means even veteran modders will take time to adjust to. The problem for me is not so much paying money for GOOD mods but the fact that they allowed everyone to exploit each other for quick money. Begging is not usually the best way to get someone to want to donate to you.

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344 are all replies on the same post. Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property. Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual. The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

@ Rebel47 I agree that the changing of a name is not a simple fix all solution as there are many degrees of modder, from the "noob" starting out downloading mods and loving it to the people who probably don't play the game anymore and are able to create content that rivals Bethesda themselves. My topic was to get the discussion going on how we come to appreciate that a community is made up of people of a very wide range of skills and abilities and that there are many things one can contribute that may not be something you can download.

In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194, #24803479, #24803744, #24803784, #24803814, #24804154, #24804314, #24804509, #24804619, #24804724 are all replies on the same post. Curated mods is definitely the model I would promote (in addition to donations here on the Nexus). This would entail that less mods could benefit from the system because the process would become more selective. There are no easy answers to this and each method has its advantages and disadvantages. These are what all these discussions are for, I only hope those on high consider this and don't just go ahead with what they think is best for us... and their pockets.

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639 are all replies on the same post. This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much. If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/ While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194, #24803479, #24803744, #24803784, #24803814, #24804154, #24804314 are all replies on the same post. I work in schools and I am not lying when I say there is a lack of focus on copyright, law and personal rights. A lot of young people do not understand this as they just Google it and pick and choose what they want By the time they leave school the rules have changed. Then they go on sites like this one see free content/money but have little to no idea where it actually comes from, the cost involved (time, effort and money) and just consume, consume, consume. People are not idiots just because they do not know things. Sometimes companies prefer them that way, ask less questions, just give us the money and all will be well.

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179 are all replies on the same post. Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows. I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969 are all replies on the same post. I don't think playing games should be a business. There are already enough things in the world to spend money on and enough blurring of the lines between leisure and work.

In response to post #24801964. #24802149, #24802519, #24802894, #24803109, #24803194, #24803479, #24803744, #24803784 are all replies on the same post. Can I make swords in your forge? For 2.99 you can.