sunshinenbrick

In response to post #24712844. That's a good idea, although they could do similar to a File of the Month thing so it is a little less exclusive. This would also decrease the likelihood of them exploiting cheap labour.

In response to post #24682284. #24682924, #24688774, #24689099, #24689669, #24712014, #24712869 are all replies on the same post. I think they need the people on the Nexus (and other free communities) on board more than they would like to let on... the reason? Cuz Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls VI will more than likely be glitchy unoptimised games. The younger, less experienced console generation who are now moving back to the PC market will be lost, have to start from scratch... without the Nexus, SKSE LOOT and NMM teams, who will at the end of the day be the people who will be driving this whole paid modding "revolution" forward. This does bring me to the wider point though that there is a conflict of interest here. The way it used to be is that we paid ~£45 for our games... they had massive potential and were pretty amazing but (as someone put it earlier) not even close to the experience gained through using mods... in many cases the game was unplayable, remember the whole Skyboost Application Layer scenario. But that price paid for everything, tools, games sdk all in a nice package. What seems to be forgotten is modders will not be excempt from having to pay for other mods that are not their own, including possible software licences that are not owned by Bethesda. The point is modders were more inclined to work on these because Bethesda were under a legal obligation to provide a working game. Now, not necessarily so. While there is potential for modders to have some well earned revenue, there will be this playing field where the responsibilities between developer and modder become even more blurry than they are now. There has already been cases of modders complaining they now have to spend more time watching out for copyright and technical issues than they used to because there seems to already be little effort from the developers end in regards to moderation and quality control. Welcome to the slippery slope of mission creep, subscription and thus, recurring costs. EDIT: I do not think the problem is so much that a modder should be allowed to charge, what is the issue is exactly how, how much and whether they are being exploited or not.

In response to post #24710409. One could argue that Bethesda owes A LOT to the modding community. They gave us the tools but modders have actually built an industry that is potentially so lucrative that Bethesda are falling over themselves to be a part of. This does not detract from what you are saying about the TECHNICAL legality of it. However the law is littered with loop holes, many of which even the biggest or most ethical companies will take advantage of at time to time. I think there is some merit in the idea that these people are working hard which, at the end of the day, allow Bethesda to increase value to their products now and in the future. They have made a complete killing thanks to what is done here. The donation system is not paying for mods and this distinction in the law should not be forgotten. It is totally voluntary (which is the key thing) I hope none of us would see people who do charitable things for other, for a good cause should be punished, and denied being given money for their skills, abilities, intelligence and creativity. There is also the point that as an individual I should have the right to give money someone. If I went to a person's house, they happen to mod games, we became friends and I felt that their contribution and enrichment to my life meant I wanted to be able to give something back, be it cash, cake, bottle of wine or otherwise. This could be seen as a friend giving the gift of money to another friend. You are legally allowed to do this up to a certain point (then you have to pay tax). Which is what this is about really, money going "off grid". It is likely we will see clamp downs on lots of these community interactions as companies continuously have to scrape what they can in order to make enough profit to stay in the game.

In response to post #24699154. #24699914, #24700424, #24700529, #24700669, #24700794, #24700949, #24701494, #24701854, #24702124, #24702184, #24702309, #24702704, #24703104, #24703354, #24703374, #24704484, #24704939, #24705069, #24705264, #24707439, #24708649, #24709434, #24709769, #24709849, #24709869, #24709899, #24710859 are all replies on the same post. I do not know you personally at all but as a community member and I think that the feelings you obviously have for the Nexus are really what this is all about. Mutual respect. Something that seems to be seriously lacking from the developers. Many people have spent the weekend working on ways in which we may help this community fight for mod creator protection. I hope you stand up for other modders so they do not get treated the way you have been. Sorry to perhaps I'm giving advice on something I can only scratch at the surface of. EDIT: I completetly realise this is not Chesko's fault. I suppose that is the point here, being bullied like he has been. It really feels like their is a fight for our survival... or maybe relevance. I am not a social media buff but I have been glued to a chat room the past two days. I can conceed that he is an older member who contributes a great deal more than I, but I really hope that Nexus stays a part of the picture and you're now being someone of such influence, maybe that can make a difference for us "little folk"

In response to post #24700324. In the day and age of suspicion, anger and crafty politicians (election time here in UK) you sir are someone (I have never met) that I could not agree more with. Internet. Creativity. Freedom.

In response to post #24697259. #24698299 is also a reply to the same post. I think some mod authors could play tough with this and demand some terms and conditions... or no mods! Kind of like a strike. From what I have read and discussed concerns with others about here is the apparently exploitative and disrespectful conditions and protections that have (or rather haven't) been put in place for Bethesda content creators, which is what these modders will be. Professionals. Would Bethesda want to be seen encouraging the exploitation of its own workers for profit... I think not. Maybe this has all been considered already, I don't know, but I have (sorta) come to the realisation that... well there is little hope for turning back now. And if that is a case than needs to be considered that its our responsibility as a community to stand by one another on this. Thank you and everyone for what you do, I'm 30 and this is the only internet community I actually engage with. So I really want to be able to make sure we are not bullied into *pun* Oblivion. I hope that all didn't sound too cheesy just now. Love you all, SNB

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691269, #24691774, #24698794, #24698939 are all replies on the same post. @ diyeath Man, that is deep... That's got me thinking every which way! Love it :D

In response to post #24696069. #24697129 is also a reply to the same post. But we must look out for our younger generation no? I mean they are being sold something we used to get for free... man that's the same with everything isn't it? Tuition Fees... healthcare... Or is that it, BOOM! Sorry if I'm taking this outside of what is my hobby but this is a good micro-economic study of what is going on in so many parts of our lives. There was an analogy brought up about cars earlier, do you know that slowly insurance companies are starting to only insure you if you get the car serviced at your car manufacturer's workshop. Do you know how they could just strip you for all you have... Wow hang on... what does that sound like. As for advertising, I've worked in that so I do have an idea of the mechanics here. But like that has changed too over the years, I don't like being continuously forced do more things I have less and less choice over. I love spending my time here, its a sanctuary... Well I did end up in a full circle again but so will this discussion until time will tell. Grrrf! Oh well it's late and I gotta start making more money so I can keep paying Valvthesda. Thanks for your comments.

In response to post #24696909. #24696999, #24697999 are all replies on the same post. Makes one appreciate the excellent moderation and basis of honesty and respect that exists within this community a lot more.

Misplaced post. Sorry =/

We certainly can bring this down to the idea that basically they are paying you for your work... the word "job" leap out to anybody? But what is to say that they do not change things in the next game engine and sdk so that a modder has to learn how to use it again. Like the long winded process of the plugin system with GameBryo (Ha we laugh now...) The idea here is that I suppose the long term idea here is that they are looking to employ select number people in their company, not us old fuddy obsolete farts that might be pissed off cuz we lost our hobby, but no the young who buy in to the entire market, merchandising thing that will be on a screen near you any time soon. Why is this important? Well its because of the time it takes to make a mod. Should I go into the numbers? Well I have but it's late and I can't be bothered to type too much, but safe to say that you will be under paid for a fair while before you start raking in the money that you need to pay for your ever increasing mortgage, possibly kids, divorce etc etc... Well what does this all have to do with law? Well it means that you are now divisively being employed "off the grid" for under the minimum wage, just because they know humans like to play with computer like a possessed idiot and they don't want to have to pay everyone health insurance and a proper wage. If we are going to talk law then we need to be more broadly minded than we are being. What do you really owe a company? EDIT: The flip side to this, I forgot to mention, is that once you get past that and start making bigger mods if you sell a 1000 or so downloads at say £2.99 to £5 or more a pop, you end up earning some pretty tidy money. Except they will be a minority and they will be busy making money to pay for the licences for the tools they need to make mods. Donate money to modders, great! Bring in payment from a company into it and you welcome in the legal implications.

In response to post #24689134. #24689324, #24689344, #24694869 are all replies on the same post. This is all only enforceable because of subscription based services, something that was impossible to regulate before the internet and digital distribution. A double edged sword indeed. Our rights as consumers is being eroded. Hmmm think I need some retail therapy now :(

In response to post #24693799. #24693879, #24693944, #24694499 are all replies on the same post. Companies have always "stolen" ideas and tools... look at Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Sony, Ikea... uh the list goes on. The difference? They can afford legal aid and they have people in influential positions who can turn things in their favor. Incidentally enough there is no more free legal aid in the UK as of recent. EDIT: I DO NOT promote or condone breaking the law. But the rules on the inside of the box of the game of life keep changing and they can find loop holes. Heck look at the international tax crime ring...

In response to post #24686879. #24693334, #24693649, #24693774, #24694279 are all replies on the same post. Yeah well some people do take the piss... But I have worked in schools and young people in general have a very shady concept of plagarism and copyright, usually thanks to Google actually. Wouldn't surprise me if this was by design and there are hungry sharks out there waiting to make a killing!

In response to post #24693799. #24693879 is also a reply to the same post. While I totally agree that this is a very grey area... like lending a VHS to your mate back in the day. Completely illegal. Lets take the car analogy because I see it a little differently... Say I buy this car, I get a bit bored of it so I give a paint job and put some groovy stuff into it. I now sell that car, do I owe anything to the person who made that car? The other thing is the rejection of companies hiding everything in a EULA. Oh and then turning a blind eye to it till it is convenient for them to use it against you. This has legal and moral questions about it as well.

In response to post #24686879. #24693334, #24693649 are all replies on the same post. It is not the man who has little, but he who desires more, that is poor. - Seneca Oh the hole Beth is digging...

In response to post #24683029. #24683444, #24684209, #24684384, #24684894, #24685094, #24685399, #24685544, #24685969, #24686034, #24692419, #24693154, #24693214, #24693254, #24693364, #24693459 are all replies on the same post. Is it not possible to donate for a piece of advice or the kind words that someone offers?

In response to post #24683029. #24683444, #24684209, #24684384, #24684894, #24685094, #24685399, #24685544, #24685969, #24686034, #24692419, #24693154, #24693214, #24693254 are all replies on the same post. I think there is a case to say that perhaps we are not donating for individual mods but for modDING, the modder themselves, their work, time and effort.

In response to post #24683029. #24683444, #24684209, #24684384, #24684894, #24685094, #24685399, #24685544, #24685969, #24686034, #24692419, #24693154 are all replies on the same post. Greggorypeccary That is a shame to hear and maybe it is because the donation system is not prominent enough, especially it seems on the none Skyrim pages. Am I missing something? I do know there is an area in the My Files section to allow people to donate. Is there one to see the Donate tab as well?? I suppose it might all be a bit obtuse because as has been said (which I didn't till today realise) that it is a slightly grey area in regard to the EULA.

In response to post #24687319. #24687789, #24689849, #24690344, #24691474 are all replies on the same post. Yes! Print everything, bug fixes, tweaks - the lot! Then go dark and see how they scramble :D This is a joke people, just so ya know.

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691774, #24698794, #24698939, #24698984 are all replies on the same post. By "wrong people" I mean if someone free loads off other people's hard work and then goes to make loads of money selling it to unsuspecting people. EDIT: Just to clarify that this is not implying everyone, but the way they seem to have set it up now appears to offer very little protection from abuse. I guess they figure that bad apples will be weeded out over time... in the meantime however. I really think modders should see the real value of what they do and demand better conditions. Hey, a modders strike??

In response to post #24690764. I bet most world leader's thought that in 2008... besides I have met many people younger than me who know a great deal about things I don't. I don't think we ever stop learning. I agree that people have free choice, and personal opinion. My suggestion comes from the game of hard ball that has been forced onto the community however. Judging things on an individual basis is something I have faith a lot of people do anyway. I did not mean to offend anybody just trying to suggest alternatives to stop mass blacklisting which will just kill the community from within.

In response to post #24689694. #24689974 is also a reply to the same post. Yes even if its PR I have managed to gain back some respect for GabeN. Although I have to add that Valve the ability to twist ZeniBeth's arm a fair bit more than we alone can, so would be good to get him onboard to make things better regulated and protect the customer.

In response to post #24690144. Black listing is not the answer as it brings us down to Valvesda's level of brutality. How about polite refusal of service? Pardon my condour but when all the new dollar hungry modders come crying saying "oh no my mod and Elder Scrolls VI is a pile of unfunctioning doo doo" then it will remain to be seen where the balances of power stand. Beth may actually end regretting giving up the endless amounts of "free" customer support they receive from communitites like this.

In response to post #24687319. #24687789, #24689849 are all replies on the same post. It is the newest generation of modders/users that we need to appeal to. I will not use workshop, especially if one has to. How do we appeal to young people? Well this literally is the million dollar question, but I think the answer to this will become apparent. A good history lesson and the wisdom of the elders will help too. As is keeping up the dialogue with those at large. If it ever becomes workshop only I hust dread to think what would happen to competition... uh oh right there will not be any!