sunshinenbrick

In response to post #24673839. #24674559, #24675019 are all replies on the same post. Could I just challenge these ideas a second... Yes they do own the assests however there is a thing called Intellectual Property. There is also the fact that many modders create their own content from scratch and even write their own code. If we go down the copyright route then how about all the tools people use to make mods... do our "friends" on high pay them for the profit they are making. Lastly, this is a can of worms... imagine buying a car, it gets old, you fix it and then the car manufacturer starts demanding you pay them for doing so. It's not like that but this is the beginning. Read this and see how agressive companies are getting: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/esa-preserving-old-video-game-consoles-museums-tantamount-illegal-hacking-1495805

In response to post #24674349. *GASP* Wow I kinda wish I hadn't read that... really boils the whole thing down and shows how disillusioned V***e have become with their own audiences. Well this one at least. It the unsuspecting new generations I feel sorry for. Also interesting he didn't say "S***m Credit is how the community steers work". A sad moment indeed.

In response to post #24645764. #24646449, #24646594, #24646624, #24647849, #24648674, #24649499, #24673089, #24673359 are all replies on the same post. I don't understand how any of this is even legal. A lot of modders create and design mods from the ground up. Its a copyright nightmare and would be like saying all the songs on Spotify are now free to use as you see fit, remix, make money out of... oh and then 75% of those profits go back to the company. Any whistle blowing and boom you're censored and quite possibly banned. I have nothing against good mods and modders getting money for what they do... but not like this, its just disgusting and has really changed my opinions on companies I had an admiration for.

In response to post #24672854. Yupp!

In response to post #24671629. Could I just postulate that "free modding" does not necessarily have to be about money, and I think that is the wider issue here. It is the freedom to be able to tinker with your games without being caught in the trap of "you need this mod to do this and this mod to do that" and in the process being directed to payment channels. The ultimate end of to this will be the end of the freedom to mod... without paying for things (tools, resources etc...) This will affect mod makers as well as nothing will make them exempt from having to fork out for any mod that isn't their own.

In response to post #24658179. #24658299, #24658339, #24658454, #24658509, #24658619, #24658724, #24658879, #24658919 are all replies on the same post. I hear you on that one WightMage :)

In response to post #24658179. #24658299, #24658339, #24658454, #24658509, #24658619, #24658724, #24658879, #24659064 are all replies on the same post. Thanks, although I do like to entertain the occasional conspiracy theory *joke*. On a serious note though I am genuinely worried about the potential seriousness this could bring in the future, when the new games come out. I don't spend a lot of time making mods although I have flittered around the edges making customisations. But I have spent a good deal of time working through a lot of problems in built into the game (as I'm sure we all have) and working with mod compatibility. I therefore feel I have a vested intrest (non financial) in trying to help find a way to not let any larger entity steamroll its way into something as complex and personal as modding. Especially as the (supposedly) symbytotic relationship that has grown from the relationship modders have with developers has been mostly beneficial to both so far. It is perhaps the reason why people get hot headed about it (not the only reason I admit). My point is we need to be really careful we find solidarity on this issue or (and I don't want to speak for others) its hypothetical, but people might just get fed up, think f this, and we'll see the whole thing go down the Minecraft <-> Microsoft route. I really hope that never happens as being able to mod is probably one of the few reasons I am still so passionate about gaming.

In response to post #24658179. #24658299 is also a reply to the same post. I agree... I haven't commented much on these general forums before but have been called a troll just for trying to contribute to the debate, something I really care about. This makes me feel frustrated as I paid for a membership in the real belief that it meant I had at least a fair share of the voice of the community.

In response to post #24657549. #24657709, #24658024, #24658054, #24658104, #24658129 are all replies on the same post. This is interesting as I think Bethesda may have backed themselves into a corner a little here and the modding community may hold the cards. Compatibility is the problem... and Bethesda's growing reliance on the modding community to "fix" the inherently glitchy games they make. No Bethesda game I have ever played even loaded the first time I booted it up. It is ONLY because of communities like this one that I am even here writing this post. In addition to this is a few comments regarding the other 3rd party tools, such as NMM, that are almost necessary to be able to effectively mod the game.

Here's a paradox... with the XBOXification of the "PC" platform itself this may be the last bastion of hope, by giving more input power to the user... shame the only gaping hole in this arguement is StemBox. Doh!

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809, #24649619, #24650179, #24650239, #24650354, #24651039, #24651229, #24651294, #24651314, #24651324, #24651364, #24651429, #24651469, #24651679, #24651784, #24651844, #24651864, #24651949, #24652074, #24652084, #24652114, #24652274, #24652374, #24652484, #24652614, #24652634, #24652709, #24652984, #24652989 are all replies on the same post. I totally understand what you mean by paying for things through other means than money (creativity, support, non-financial contribution) however I do hope that sometimes it is best to take down things you don't agree with from within. This is to say that although I cannot speak for the site owner nor do I know, or ever talked to him, but he has stated his position and we should try give him some benefit of the doubt because there are things that can be safeguarded against. Suppose time will tell but it is somewhat comforting to know that the players at hand here do see the value of the community here. Admittedly it might be money orientated, however we can have the chance to show them there is more to modding than that. Then maybe they will see that suffocating all aspects of the free community will stifle creativity. I hope. And we can start by using donation systems. But that's money I hear you say??? Yes but it is important HOW you give money and WHO you give it to.

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809, #24649619, #24650179, #24650239, #24650354, #24651039, #24651229, #24651294, #24651314, #24651324, #24651364, #24651429, #24651469, #24651679, #24651784, #24651844, #24651864, #24651949, #24652074, #24652084, #24652114, #24652274, #24652374, #24652484 are all replies on the same post. Thanks :D Yeah I really hope that dialogues between parties can be kept open so that they can mutually benefit each other. I know that sounds a bit soppy but I suppose (more movie taglines coming up) we do need to have some hope here... not easy I know but its that or dispair!

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809, #24649619, #24650179, #24650239, #24650354, #24651039, #24651229, #24651294, #24651314, #24651324, #24651364, #24651429, #24651469, #24651679, #24651784, #24651844, #24651864, #24651949, #24652074, #24652084 are all replies on the same post. Ha, thank you... I think :/ I have never considered myself a troll (only learnt what it was a couple of year ago...) being a bit of old fashioned. I just think it can be unwise to just use the arguement that "it's just the way it is". But I also think there can be constructive ways to talk about this. As in trying to organise a way of reducing this "slippery slope" that has been mentioned a number of times. And I wanted to suggest that getting hissy with each other is not going to help... perhaps that what was predicted to happen??

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809, #24649619, #24650179, #24650239, #24650354, #24651039, #24651229, #24651294, #24651314, #24651324, #24651364, #24651429, #24651469 are all replies on the same post. I hope I don't regret bringing this point up. We are entitled to opinions are we not? And we are allowed to doubt what people say at face value, are we not? That is part of a community and it does not help to throw insults at one another, even if it's understandable as we all have a lot of passion about modding.

In response to post #24649829. Thank you for restoring me with some hope there :) And I totally agree, it is what brought me back to PC gaming. It is disappointing but I think it is the corporate entity that distorts the individual ambitions of the people who are part of it. Hate the cliche line but... power corrupts, usually unintentionally as I am sure the decision a company makes does not reflect the views of everyone in that company.

In response to post #24645544. #24646089, #24649659 are all replies on the same post. Very important point made above!

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524, #24646134, #24646729, #24646959, #24648599 are all replies on the same post. You do realise that Skyrim could quite easily be considered a retro game already. Besides its about access to something you have given money in order to have access to. EDIT: If you don't believe me try installing anything other than the latest version of a game on Steam.

In response to post #24637444. #24637704, #24638489, #24647534, #24647779, #24647944, #24648914 are all replies on the same post. My point about the financial crash is that it was caused by false inflation of value. That is people are paying more but end up getting less. This is the inherent flaw in how money now works. The problem is that, as much as I realise that money is anow a necessity, it appears to be the primary way in which people attach value to things. It because of THAT reason that communities like this one are so important as to not contract them down to their monetary value.

In response to post #24637444. #24637704, #24638489, #24647534, #24647779 are all replies on the same post. Please watch a couple of documentaries on the financial crash and see if you still have the stance that money makes the world go round.

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524, #24646134, #24646729 are all replies on the same post. The problem is that it will turn "free modders" into criminals. Please see: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/esa-preserving-old-video-game-consoles-museums-tantamount-illegal-hacking-1495805

In response to post #24645764. #24646449, #24646594 are all replies on the same post. Let us also not forget Skyrim was a bugged out mess of a game when it was released. Continuous digs for payment in order to have a finished game will be next.

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524 are all replies on the same post. How about a model where jobs are offered to the best and most talented modders? Then really will see some inovation in the way companies interact with communities.

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484 are all replies on the same post. The truth in this is painful to read. Look what Apple did to Linux. Fight the good fight people!

The most worrying thing is this kind of thing is happening in all industries. It's also the case that these things happen subtley and very slowly and therefore makes it very expensive to stay ahead of the game. That is to say it could have been a problem for Valve had groups of modders created a legal team who had set out protection for "UGC". I think the best line of defence is to appeal to the hearts and minds of the community and to promote the donations schemes as the less "middle men" invloved the better for both users and modders. But remember this is ripe in the media and entertainment industries so be vigilant and try support small and non profit creators.

EDIT: Sorry, ignore this post. Technical difficulties :)