Elimc

So, I'd heard that CWO got taken down, but shouldn't it be back up by now? I can't find it anywhere.

See, if that were true, I'd agree with you. But it's not. The Dominion already beat the Empire, and right now, even if the Empire wins Skyrim back easily, its never going to get as strong as it was during the great war, while the AD is still growing. Trying to do the same thing as last time, and letting the AD dictate the terms of engagement by going on the defensive is not going to ever allow the Empire, or anyone else, to ever beat the AD. The only option is to try something they don't expect and catch them off guard. But trying to repeat the same plan that failed a few years ago and expecting a different result, despite having far fewer resources (the Blades and Hammerfell), is just dumb.

@leddbate Titus mede doesnt say thst his death is necessary for the empire to continue. He just says thwt his reath is unavoidable. (While he is 1 on 1 with the best assasin) Also, while your explanation of the start of the game could be true, it is too nuch guesswork to work as a good argument.

The Dossier does not heavily imply that an imperial victory is better than a stormcloak victory, it just says that "an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim," and "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." I don't think that is heavily implying that a Stormcloak victory is worse than an imperial one.

Absolutely correct, they can call him a sleeper agent, or someone that could become one, but that is just a fancy way of saying that it's a person that they can manipulate without actually being there. He's not an actual mole, though he's just as destructive. The best Thalmor Scenario is for this war to be a very long drawn out conflict, then when they are ready once again with fresh troops, they then simply have to sweep both Cyrodill and Skyim. The 2nd best outcome is that Ulfric actually wins, Cyrodill will be weakened, but they will still have to fight it with resistance. And the least palatable scenario is the Empire actually winning, holding on to them, because the Empire would be quite strong then and the Thalmor would have to prepare even more. How do you know that the Thalmor prefer a stormcloak victory to an Imperial one. There is no evidence for this claim at all. I would argue that an Imperial victory is their second best, because they can still use their justicators to weaken Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win they are going to kick the thalmor out, so the AD won't know what's coming, or when. Remember all the groups the U.S. supported the taliban because they were fighting against Sadam Hussien? Just because the AD thinks the Stormcloaks are the bigger threat doesn't mean they actually are. I just finished the last Earthsea book, and I can't believe I never noticed how similiar the true names are to shouts until you pointed it out.

Riften's mage is an absolute laughing stock and totally incompetent. Windhelm's is surrounded by so much fear and suspicion that no one thinks twice about blaming him for murders because, 'Wizard'. Dawnstar's is an outright pacifist. And all those positions are simply there because the Jarl's have always had a court mage, not because they are respected positions or that Nords have any faith in the magical arts. The Way of the Voice is for the glory and praise of the gods, not for martial pursuits. It COULD be argued that the Way would allow for the wider spread of the Thu'um in the glorification of Talos, but Ulfric admits that the Talos ban is a political tool and not particularly dear to his heart. In a similar vein, you don't seem to understand how the Thu'um works. Jurgen didn't convince the other Tongues of the Way, he literally shouted them into submission. He SHOUTED pacifism onto them. His Thu'um was stronger, and its influence changed how the Thu'um was taught. It's not a matter of interpreting philosophies, but an expression of sheer will. The Greybeards of today are still bound by the will of Jurgan, not an interpretation of some distant philosophy. The Greybeards could use the voice for fighting if they wanted to, because Arngeir says "Begone, before even my philosophy is tested beyond the breaking point." So he could attack you, but he doesn't, because of his philosophy, not because of Jurgan. And where does Ulfric say that the Talos ban is a political tool?

Rome was not considered two separate countries, it was just governed in two places because one Emperor could not control all of it. They were still separate, but they became farther apart as the Western Empire lost its land to barbarians. Earlier, the East had been helping them out. So I would say that these situations are still analogous.

A point of order: Three cities in Hammerfell and most of the cities in Cyrodiil were occupied NO cities in Highrock or Skyrim were occupied by the AD. That means that "most of the cities of the Empire were occupied" is an overstatement. Sorry, I meant Cyrodil, not the Empire. Which illuminates that it is men fighting men that gives the Mer any hope of success. Movements that create divisions within the Empire is what is weakening Man in its confrontation with Mer. How you contend that it would be more advantageous for PART of the forces of Man will prevail against the Mer in the long run while at the same time saying ALL the forces unified in the Empire is doomed to failure defies logic. Or are you suggesting that Man is entirely doomed to failure anyway, so it is morally better for the Nords to lose united under their own independent banner? "Better to die as Nords than to die as Imperial lackeys!" Dead is dead. The net effect would be the Mer ascendant and what remains of Mankind subjugated. In Rome, when the city of Rome was being overwhelmed by barbarians, Byzantium was much better off on its own then it would have been if it had tried to keep Rome safe. So just because the Men would have greater numbers if they stayed united under the Empire, doesn't mean they would be more effective in a war with the AD.

If you read the journals that I linked, you will see why I think that the Empire is never going to recover. Entire cities are being destroyed by bandits and drug lords, while the legion is trying to maintain a strong face on the AD border. The Empire is giving in to Thalmor demands, and is quickly weakening. Unless they get incredibly lucky, I don't think they will be able to survive for another century. Ulfric's rebellion only helps the AD if it ultimately fails, or if it suceeds after Skyrim is destroyed. A quick victory for either side will hurt their positioin, but I think a Stormcloak victory hurts them the most. If the Empire wins, the war will still have cost them a large amount of resources. If the Stormcloaks win, Cyrodil will likely fall, but High Rock would probably leave the Empire, and if Hammerfell has recovered (unlikely), they could form their own alliance against the AD.

So then Balgruuf will be forced to either side with the Empire or fight against them, just like he has to do with the stormcloaks. So really the Imperials aren't any better than Ulfric in that aspect. But the Empire has been occupied by the AD, with most of it's cities being captured. And as you keep saying when we talk about Hammerfell, the AD would have completely destroyed many of these cities before they retreated. The IC would be spared, because the AD might have wanted to keep it intact so they could rule Cyrodil from it, but Bravil, Skingrad, Kvatch and Anvil, as well as all surrounding infrastructure could have been burned. And even if it wasn't, Cicero's journals show that it is being destroyed now. Also, Cicero doesn't go insane until after he has written the parts about major imperial cites being destroyed.

Just saying, Kajits aren't forbidden from entering cities, just the caravans, and that applies to all cities, not just stormcloak ones. I think it is a similiar case with argonians, they can go in the city, they just can't buy a house/there aren't any houses availiable for them to buy. Also, look at the quotes from Belyn Hlaalu and Nyraneye if you really think that Skyrim is that racist. Also, if you join the Stormcloaks as a non-nord, you can ask Ulfric or Galmar(i forget who) if they only accept nords, and they say that they don't. While this may have been built into lore because of casual players, it is still lore, not just a game mechanic.

@Kimmera There is a difference between being an idiot and trying to make it seem like the Empire made the right choice in the Great War. Cyrodil falling apart comes from Cicero, who has no reason at all to be biased, and Victoria who lives in solitude(forgot her last name). Cyrodil's military strength at the end of the Great War wouldn't stop Cyrodil from falling apart ten years later

@Kimmera All generals are officers, but not all officers are generals. Just because he interviewed officers, doesn't mean he interviewed generals. He could have just interviewed a few of the captains under his command and it would still count as interviewing officers. Also, that sentence doesn't make sense, because legates don't command legions. Unless the Empire is organized into legions, which then are put into a grand legion under a general. But then the legate still wouldn't know about the condition of the other grand legions. We know of at least three or four, but I think there are more that didn't get mentioned. They killed all the AD forces that were in the IC, all the AD forces who would come from Anvil and Kvatch, and all the AD forces nearby who tried to stop their advance into the IC. So maybe there are a few AD soldiers wandering around, but they are likely not a major force. You also reject any information that disagrees with you, like all the evidence we have about Cyrodil falling apart, High Rock having one of it's main cities destroyed by pirates, and still say it will recover and defeat the AD.

@CaptainPatch Legate Justianus interviewed "surviving soldiers and Imperial officers". There is no mention of him interviewing a general, or any legates who were advisers for generals. He might have just interviewed a few foot soldiers and some other legates from his legion, which wouldn't get him any information about the condition of the other 7. Ulfric might not have known much either, but I am really saying that we do not have enough information about this subject to make an informed decision. The Empire doesn't have sharpshooters to hide in the woods while the AD marches up to the Admantine Tower, just archers, who can't fire while lying prone in cover. Also, making the Empire into a wasteland would be perfect from the AD's standpoint. So you are saying that the AD can't afford to defeat the Empire, but the Empire can't afford to fight the AD, so since this is the case why did the Emperor need to surrender? Couldn't they just have made a show of force along the border to scare the AD into giving up? Or maybe the generals that he interviewed(who might not have existed) gave him a completely unbiased account of all the errors that they made. Ulfric was a soldier in the legion during the Great War, his rank is left for us to guess, weather he was a private, a legate, or a militia commander helping out the legion without actually joining it. But the second invasion will be less expensive than the first, and the third less expensive than the second, until they finally destroy the Empire. So the AD has these massive amounts of reserves in place, not to mention the army in Hammerfell, and it still has the ability to keep fighting? While the war was fought on Imperial territory, the Empire has 4 provinces, 5 if you count morrowind, while the AD has 2, and 3 if you count Elswyr, which is merely a puppet of the AD, and might not be supplying troops. So even with half of Hammerfell and a third of Cyrodil destroyed, the Empire still has more resources than the AD. So it should be able to maintain a bigger army for a longer period of time. @Kimmera The legate talked to "surviving soldiers and Imperial officers". I don't know where we got him interviewing generals from, but it wasn't from the book. He talked to a few officers and foot soldiers, likely not enough people to gain an understanding of the Empire's whole situation. He probably would know how well his legion was doing, but I think it is a stretch to say he knew how well the whole Empire was doing. Ulfric could be. Or he could just be wrong. But the same thing applies to the Great War. We just don't have enough information. The Thalmor would have been in Skyrim sooner or later, a few years doesn't matter to them. Why would the Empire sign away religious freedom of it's subjects when they have just finished killing every AD soldier in Cyrodil? Because they don't care about their subjects, as long as it happens far away and doesn't effect them. We are going in circles because we don't have enough evidence, so all we can do is try to out speculate each other.

@CaptainPatch I said that you had a point about Ulfric, but that the same thing applies to the author because a legate out in the field would only know the condition of his own legion, not all the other legions. Also, the legate was wounded during the Battle of the Red Ring, so he would have been in command after the Empire retook the IC, so he wouldn't have any idea what was going on. He would have to completely rely on Imperial generals to provide information. It doesn't take as many troops to march in and burn all the cities in all the human provinces, and then repeat that every few years. It takes even less to march an army up to the Admantine Tower, which is the only tower left active that is responsible for holding NIRN together (unless you think the WG Tower was reactivated by Akatosh, but the Admantine Tower is still important). @Kimmera The generals could have told him to write that the Empire couldn't continue instead of wouldn't continue, since the legate was writing a book that would be read widely, they wouldn't want people getting the idea that the Empire is full of cowards. Like you said, if generals told him that the Empire couldn't continue, why would he listen to a captive AD soldier, or a few soldiers (like Ulfric). We really need more than one book to make an accurate judgement about the Great War. Ulfric wouldn't know any more than the legate, but since he might have been a legate himself, or talked to his legate, he might know as much as his legate. Ulfric saying the Empire should have continued is the same as him saying the Empire could have continued. TMII might have wanted to retake the IC to get terms that wouldn't harm Cyrodil as much as it's provinces, or maybe he thought the AD was going to betray him after he signed a treaty and wanted to make them more cautious. While an attack on the AD is not a guaranteed victory, if the AD has the troops you claim it does then a surrender, or even a peace treaty that lets them weaken the Empire, is the equivalent of suicide. The AD will grow stronger while the Empire grows weaker, and by the time the second Great War starts the AD will roll through the Empire with ease. If you keep fighting, you have a chance, if you sign a treaty, you let them play their long game and they will slowly but surely destroy you.

@Kimmera Imperial generals, who are the only people likely to know enough about the situation to know how the whole Imperial army is doing, besides their advisers, are likely to be biased towards the Empire. Maybe the AD didn't want to officially conquer Cyrodil, but while they controlled the IC, they were probably asking for more land/money/other stuff in exchange for surrender, or TMII would have just surrendered then and not bothered to retake the city. So since they wanted more land/money/other stuff from Cyrodil, they didn't get all of it. So if they had the army to take it, why didn't they? There was nothing that said the Empire was running short on supply during the previous four years of war, only one vague quote that says they couldn't continue. Also, Cyrodil has two other untouched provinces to draw food from, and we see no sign that Skyrim can't grow plenty of food, especially in the southern regions. Two provinces could provide supply for the legion, even if 3 of Cyrodil's cities were completely destroyed. If being at the battle gives you a measure of troops strength, morale and supply, then Ulfric would also be able to tell what shape the legion was in. If the legate interviewed Imperial generals they might have told him biased information so they didn't look bad. @CaptainPatch The Alik'r in Skyrim aren't very barbaric, and are acting under orders from the government of Hammerfell, so maybe something has changed since that was written? Also, what text it that from? Legion officers would be biased toward themselves, possibly the reason that the book says the Empire was unable to continue. Maybe they actually couldn't continue, but legion generals could have influenced the author to make it seem like they had no choice but to surrender.

I really hated how flying a dragon worked, so I just got a mod that lets you become a dragon.

Ulfric might have received permission from the High King, and he did make a deal with the Imperial sent to reclaim the city. He just shouldn't have trusted the Empire to put freedom of religion very high on it's priority list.

@Kimmera That is a good point. But the same issue also applies to the legate who wrote the Great War, because if he wasn't an adviser to a general, he would have a limited idea of how the other 7 legions were doing. If he went around interviewing all the generals to find out, then he may have received biased answers since TMII wouldn't want anyone to think he could have kept fighting and possibly won. Your whole argument is based around saying that the AD could have stepped in at any time during the Great War and conquered Cyrodil, but instead they chose not to, leaving a huge number of forces in reserve. Also, Skyrim has plenty of farms to supply itself, so I don't think that "the Empire normally supplies them" is a correct statement, more like "The Empire supplies them with luxury food", since half the quests in Solitude have you running down to the dock to get some freshly imported something. Why does supply suddenly become problematic after the Empire has just lost about 2/3 of its men? They had been supplying those men for 4 years, but now they suddenly can't? If the legate was just a field legate, like the fort commanders in Skyrim, he wouldn't know much about the other legions. Since there were 8 legions present after the Battle of the Red Ring, this would make a legate unable to comment on the strength of the Empire's army. Only a general would know that much, or a legate who advises a general (like Rikke).

@Kimmera If Ulfric and Galmar were in the IC when the treaty was signed, it is likely that they fought in the Battle of the Red Ring. They definitely would have seen the condition that the Legion was in. I know that if Ulfric is wrong about Skyrim's ability to fight the AD, and the Empire's ability to recover, a victory for him will result in victory for the AD. But if he is right about the Empire's ability to recover and the AD's ability to walk in and destroy the Empire whenever they want, a victory for the Empire will result in victory for the AD. I was not saying that Decianus' men were weak or not needed to win the Battle of the Red Ring, I was saying that if his army was defeating the AD in Hammerfell, then the AD didn't have many of their forces committed there. I inferred from this that they didn't have forces to commit there, and therefore are not as strong as you believe. While I could be wrong about that, I think it would be the AD's style to try to bluff the Empire into surrendering. @CaptainPatch The legates commanding forts in Skyrim don't seem like they would know exactly what is going on in all the other forts, while they would receive reports about how well the other parts of their legion are doing, they wouldn't have enough information to say for a fact if the other legions were "able to continue". If he was a Staff legate, like Rikke, then he probably would but we don't know that Justianus Quintius was. From the 'Bear of Markarth' "the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship." The Empire then broke their deal with Ulfric and had him arrested. While it may have been the the Imperial who agreed to these terms was overruled and didn't want to betray Ulfric, the fact remains that Ulfric was betrayed by the Empire. The shift of focus occurred in 4E172, two years before the AD was stopped in Hammerfell. So while they did want Cyrodil more than Hammerfell, the AD was still planning on taking both. The Empire sent one General to Skyrim, with a legion under his command. While they were forced to recruit locally, he probably was sent with at least a few thousand men. I thought that the Alik'r were just a class of Redguard warriors, like knights in medieval Europe, rather than their own faction. Yes, but the fact that the AD in Hammerfell could be defeated by one or two legions that aren't at full strength proves that they did not have many forces committed there. I think that means that they didn't have any forces TO commit there. There is no proof that the atrocities described in the 'Bear of Markarth' actually happened, especially because no one in Markarth ever mentions them, not Braig, Madanach, or Igmund. Also, there is the fact that the author says the event happened five years before it did. Or that none of the Forsworn in the Reach are mad at Ulfric, instead they are mad at Igmund. That book is obviously propaganda, especially considering that the author is an Imperial Scholar. Regardless of all that, the Empire betrayed Ulfric. The legion commander should have sent a message back to TMII, or said that he couldn't agree to the terms. Instead, he lied.

@Kimmera Since we didn't see the Battle of the Red Ring, we have to rely on other people's assessments of it to get our proof. Maybe Ulfric was wrong, but maybe he wasn't. There is no evidence for these reserves, just your assumption that the AD doesn't want to take Hammerfell(despite earlier attempts to take it) and that they haven't committed many of their troops. Both of these are completely unfounded, yet you keep saying them like they are proven facts. The WGC was a conditional surrender, but it was a surrender. @CaptainPatch Seeing how the Empire reacted when Skyrim tried to leave it, I doubt they would have just kicked the Hammerfell out without letting it have a final chance to stay in the Empire. The Imperials had officially abandoned Hammerfell by the time the AD was forced back across the desert, so the Alik'r would be the only ones still fighting the AD, so I don't see what you are saying. The Redguards fought the AD to a draw for 5 years, until it ended in a treaty that gave them their land back. This sounds a lot like a victory to me. While two legions would be better than one, we don't know that either of these legions were at full strength by the Battle of the Red Ring. The Empire not having honor could come from the fact that they made a deal with Ulfric, broke it, threw him in jail, and didn't even let him out to come to his father's funeral. I do see that maybe Ulfric would think the only acceptable outcomes of a war are surrender or death, but I do not agree with that statement.

@CaptainPatch Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. So he obviously tried to get them to accept it, but in the end was forced to renounce Hammerfell as a province when they refused the treaty. It is highly unlikely that Hammerfell wouldn't have known rejecting the treaty would get them kicked out of the Empire. There is not enough evidence about Hammerfell for us to make a solid conclusion, it could be there were no more large battles or it could be that the author of the book only considers the Great War to be the war between the Empire and the AD, not the war between the AD and Hammerfell that happened after it, so he wouldn't go into as much detail about that war. And really, in five years there would be big battles, even if they were all colossal defeats for the redguards, the Alik'r wouldn't have given up without a fight. You misread that quote, it says the Alik'r inflicted the casualties on the AD, not the other way around. I know the legions from Hammerfell couldn't win the Battle of the Red Ring on their own, but since they could defeated the AD's army in Hammerfell on their own, it proves the AD had limited forces to commit to Hammerfell. I was saying that unless the AD is keeping these huge numbers of well trained reserves that you have no evidence for, they were running very short on manpower by the end of the Great War. When a nation no longer has the will to continue, it then signs a peace of paper declaring it surrenders. In the case of Germany and Japan, both had the will to continue after they had lost the means to continue. @Kimmera Okay, maybe Decianus commanded two or three legions. I don't see how this changes anything. The Redguards in Hammerfell would have at least a few deserters who went back into Hammerfell to continue fighting the AD. Ulfric wouldn't be blaming the Empire for surrendering if they had been as weakened as you claim, since he would have seen that they couldn't fight on. Instead, he says that they should have fought on, which implies that they could have kept fighting.

@CaptainPatch Hammerfell knew that refusing the treaty was equal to declaring independence, and they refused it anyway. Under normal circumstances the Empire would have sent in troops to force them to accept it. They didn't defeat the AD, but they did fight them to a draw. Also, while the cities never changed hands, the front lines could have moved around considerably, but the author is summarizing by the time he reaches this point, and is not specific about if there were any major battles, who won them, and why the AD withdrew. "These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors." They drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the desert, they didn't just sit by and watch the AD retreat. The AD did not simply walk back south from Skaven, they retreated while being attacked by Redguard forces. The Empire hadn't lost the war until it surrendered, it's army was still in existence, it had possesion of it's capitol and most of Cyrodil, and it had just wiped out the entire main army of the AD(so maybe they went and took back Anvil and Kvatch too. But that is a maybe). We don't, but I personally don't think he told the Emperor information that would harm the war effort. @Kimmera I know Decanius and his men were needed to win the Battle of the Red Ring, but if his one legion was defeating the AD their force in Hammerfell couldn't have been that strong. I am saying it is possible that in-game authors are biased, and that when they make a claim that is disputed, like the Empire's condition after the Battle of the Red Ring, they are not always correct. Other than that, and the Bear of Markarth, which is obviously biased, I can't remember a time that I said a piece of lore doesn't count.

@CaptainPatch Declaring independence from an Empire also usually starts a war, so this is obviously not usual. Unless the Empire wanted to execute about a fifth of their soldiers (Redguards making up a quarter of the Empire, minus the ones left behind in Hammerfell), they would have to let the Redguards leave. The AD had been stopped in their tracks, and would have been driven back if the Empire had been able to keep Decianus in Hammerfell. You are incorrect about Lady Arennlya's situation, because she never did accomplish her objective. She came close, but was defeated in Hegathe and then pushed back across the Alik'r desert. @Kimmera The civil disorder started quite a few years after the Great War, so the Empire was successfully keeping the peace for about a decade. As are your theories about Hammerfell. Because at that point, Hammerfell wasn't occupied, and if he gave in to that demand, what was to stop the AD from just making another, and another, until the Empire was substantially weakened and war started. You are assuming Decianus kept information vital to knowing how the war was going secret from the Empire. He could have just said that the Redguard militias were stronger than expected, but I doubt he would have sabotaged the Emperor's knowledge of Hammerfell. Really, just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean I am a troll.

@Kimmera I assume the Redguard troops would have gone home on their own once Hammerfell declared independence/was kicked out of the Empire. The Empire has been getting weaker since Oblivion, because of many things. Also, the civil disorder started in 4E188, well after the Great War and before the Skyrim Civil War. We have proof that the Empire is getting weaker, and nothing about Hammerfell, so everything about it is speculation. Giving up half of Hammerfell wouldn't hurt Cyrodil as much as fighting for another year.