Talwyn224
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Posts posted by Talwyn224
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Upon reflecting on my questions as to why the Enclave failed to defeat the BoS in the Capital Wasteland I think we should listen instead to the apocryphal words of President John Henry Eden and let him explain:
"We live in an age of poverty, greed, violence, destruction. Indeed the very seat of the federal government, Washington D.C., has been reduced to what is now known as the Capital Wasteland. The Capital Wasteland, how did it come to this America? How did your leaders allow the most powerful nation on Earth...to die? The answer is really quite simple. Incompetence. Incompetence at the highest echelons of power. We put our trust, our faith, in halfwits. Our intrepid leaders had everything they wanted; power, wealth, prestige. It made them lazy, America. Oh yes, and laziness breeds stupidity. Rest assured, I will not make the mistakes of my predecessors..."
From the "mouth" of Eden himself... he condemns the Enclave because they were complacent, lazy, arrogant and above all incompetent and thus were doomed. I know it's the easy solution and its a bit of a imaginative leap but I suppose its the best explanation in the end and it fits despite the narrative and logic flaws in the storyline.
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Interesting points 7thSealord however I think there is a problem with the 1st one.
Up till the point where the LW is captured by the Enclave, we see that Eden is in charge as Col. Autumn initially obeys Edens orders. It's only after Eden releases the LW so that they can have a little "chat" that Autumn chooses to rebel against Eden and launches the assault to take over Project Purity. This begs the question again: if Eden was indeed in charge, why did he not order a surprise attack on the BoS in the Citadel thus eliminating the only real threat to the Enclave in the Capital Wasteland? We know that the Enclave are fully aware of the BoS presence in the ruins of the Pentagon because Eden tells us himself via one of his speeches. We also know that Eden is supposed to be some sort of self aware AI/super computer and thus the logical assumption is that as such, he/it should have "gamed" out every possible scenario well before hand. And as such Eden should have calculated that the best way to deal with the BoS would have been to destroy them before they have a chance to act [best defence is offence] and therefore seize the initiative and victory.
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It'd have to be Wizards Crown for me. Growing up with the Apple IIe and old 5 1/4 inch floppies, this was a revelation in gaming for it's day.
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My top 5 CRPG's are as follows:
1st = The Baldurs Gate series
2nd = Fallout 1
3rd = Wizards Crown & The Eternal Dagger [sSI made these very early CRPG's]
4th = Betrayal at Krondor
5th = Jagged Alliance 2
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Actually the whole Grayditch quest makes no sense really as Bryan should have become ant food along with the rest of the population.
Improbable, I agree. But he does mention having some "really good hiding places" and, unlike all the adults, he didn't bunker down OR go head-to-head with the Ants. Not doing either of those things probably did more to save his life than anything else. I tend to compare him with Newt out of 'Aliens'.
That's indeed correct and he does have a refuge in the Pulowski shelter box thing. However he has to go out to scavenge for food plus find help and when you approach GrayDitch for the 1st time you encounter the Ants straight away which makes me wonder how did Bryan avoid them?
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I liked HH for the Survivalists story as that was probably one of the best bits of writing in the FO canon. Discovering his various cache locations and journal entries made HH the more intriguing than the main quest line which is to either run from or fight the white legs.
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@ CoreXion, your answers are extremely illuminating and very thoughtful and I've enjoyed reading them. Thanks :)
My question is this: why is Vault 112 pretty much ignored/forgotten about once you've freed James from the VR pod? Surely both the BoS and the Outcasts would be keen to get their hands on this priceless and intact Vault and all the tech that's located inside it? I would have thought that the LW could have gained more trust/respect from either faction by divulging the location to V112, perhaps even leading a small party out there to claim the place? I realise that there are more urgent matters demanding the BoS's attention however after Broken Steel they appear to be extending their influence over the capital wasteland so logically I'd have thought they'd like to gain access to this vault and use it as a base of operations in the western region of the CW.
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Just adding on regarding Bryan Wilks, I had a WTF momentv in most recent play thru when I was in the middle of battling the raiders outside the SuperMart in order to get to the food & meds located in for the Wasteland Survival guide quest when young Bryan just runs up and DEMANDS my attention in the middle of a firefight! Everything stops until that conversation gets completed, the raiders politely waiting until this lad has secured my help then once he's satisfied we resume shooting each other....
Actually the whole Grayditch quest makes no sense really as Bryan should have become ant food along with the rest of the population.
Other things that don't quite make sense:
Vault 112 - It's supposed to be a refuge for over 40 plus people but we only see about a dozen VR pods there. What about the rest of the Vault? I think Vault 112 needs to be expanded to include the rector room and robot maintainence bays plus more VR pod rooms and a living area. Then once you've made contact with Lyons and the BoS surely they'd be salivating at the prospect of getting their hands on the VR tech that's located in V112? Yet we don't hear anything about it but we do always get to listen to their spiel about preserving the old world tech. IMO this is yet another example of laziness by the writers/designers. Even the Outcarts should be interested in gaining access to V112 especially after you've completed Operation Anchoridge,
The Enclave - why didn't they just nuke the BoS right away or at least launch an all out assault on them BEFORE taking over Project Purity? Talk about tactical idiocy, leaving a well armed group alone in order to secure a water purifier. The Enclave should be extremely difficult to defeat as they have all the tactical advantages, the mo9st obvious one being Vertibirds. Having control of the air should mean thatv they should be able to slaughter anything they choose [death from above] in the capital wasteland. Yet we find their Vertibirds on the ground al ready for the Lone-Wanderer to blow them up with weapons fire. Ridiculous.
Dad - how the hell did James get from Project Purity to Vault 112 with just a .32 pistol and a Vault suit and survive? The guy must be indestructable or a master of stealth. Somehow he manages to evade the Supermutants, raiders, and various nasties that crop up along the way. Again, its a massive stretch which the writers hope no one notices. And then he gets back after you free him from V112 if you fast travel back to Rivet City.
Returing to Vault 101 - The Trouble on the Home Front quest should have some sort of caveats IF you have Fawkes or Charon as a follower. The first time I did this quest I had walked all the way from Raven Rock with Fawkes and picked up the radio request for help so went in to check it out thinking wait til they see Fawkes! Yet no reaction whatsoever!?! Come on :rolleyes: surely the sight of a Super Mutant tagging along with yours truly would have raised some suspiscions or even fear/outright panic from the remaining residents of V101? Hell, even bringing in Dogmeat should get extra dialogue as I doubt anyone in V101 would have ever seen a living dog in their life time. But sadly nothing is mentioned and again, more laziness on the part of the writers.
That'll do for now
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I'm reasonably certain that any new FO game produced by Bethesda will be set in & around Boston and focusing on the "Institute" and the Commonwealth up there. We've had some good indictions that this is the case but at this moment I can't recall any articles to back this up for now.
Personally I'd like to see the next installment set in the mid west and explore what happened with the mid west BoS after their victory over the Calculator. We also get evidence from EDE in Lonesome Road/New Vegas that there is an Enclave base somewhere in the ruins of Chicago so there is plenty of scope for a whole new campaign and storyline to be set there. In addition, I believe the designers/writers should "fill in the gaps" in the FO world and continue the stories that have alreasdy been done through the various game releases including FO:Tactics & Brotherhood of Steel.
Anyway, we'll have to wait until 2013 I think before any new FO game comes out [sigh]
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Using the Lady-Killer perk is another way of dealing with her in a non violent resolution.
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I've always felt that FO3 should have been set just after the original FO in regards to the timeline/continuity. Setting the game 200 years since the war just because it's the "3rd" instalment of the franchise was a bit of laziness on behalf of the writers. If you read through the official timeline you start to see the flaws in the internal logic of the FO universe.
There are many flaws in the game's story and as such break the immersion if you start to think about them logically. The food & water issue is probably the best example. Sure people can eat the mutated animals of the wastes but if there is no safe drinking water... well a human being can only last roughly 3 days without water before dying and if contaminated water is all that's available then there should only be ghouls and super mutants left in the wastes as they're the only ones immune to the rads in the water.
The Enclave too are a real problem. I've said before in a previous topic that the enclave are a joke and completely unbelievable. We are presented with this secretive shadow US government that had carefully prepared itself for the war and its aftermath by setting up well supplied bunkers and bases yet come 200 years later, they get wiped out by the Lone Wanderer and the rag tag east coast BoS. These guys have Vertibirds plus all the neat shiny toys like hellfire armour and thus have the military edge. However they are barely a challenge and their biggest achievement is to destroy Liberty Prime with their orbital nukes!?! :facepalm: Ummm... what idiot thought that one up? Surely the thing to hit would have been the Pentagon/Citadel? Wipe out the BoS base and mop up the rest at leisure. Again, lazy writing IMO.
Yet despite the serious flaws in the story and game universe, FO3 is still a great game and I love replaying it. I just wish that it was given more thought by it's designers/writers so that nit pickers like me would have nothing to say :thumbsup:
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This is an excellent concept and I'm keen to contribute ideas if I may.
If the main thrust of the story is going to focus on NCR troopers & Rangers then one of the main themes should be this: boredom.
There's an old expression that is universal with all armies: hurry up & wait.
Essentially serving in most active combat zones is on average 90% nothing happening and 10% sheer mayhem. That should be the tempo and pace of the story, IMO anyway.
Now what to do in the majority of the time? Well most of the characters will be complaining and bitching about anything and everything. Soldiers gripe about all sorts of things be it the food, their current assignment, their superior officers & NCO's, the weather, lack of leave.... and so on...the list is endless. Now this can be done in a humorous manner, often best is a mix with jokes and dark humour. Also funny and strange things happen in active combat zones or in other words weird sh*t happens.
These are just a few ideas that come to my mind and of course, the real trick will be writing the scripted dialogue for the characters. That's the hard bit as it has to be believable and above all, good.
Currently I'm in the middle of writing a story but I do need other ideas to work as well. I'll need some time to come up with a basic script. Are you planning to have voice actors for this?
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I say play with Hardcore on and you'll see that it's a really good gaming experience.
Watching your physical needs like hunger, sleep hydration is just the same as watching your rad levels. It's not that much of an extra effort and I believe that HardCore mode enhances FONV like no other game.
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As soon as we have "Crisis on Infinite Wastelands", that's the day I take my copy back to the store and ask for my money back.
That was rather funny I thought, nice one :thumbsup:
I used the Marvel/DC examples because as people are more likely to be aware of them.
BTW, I'm not wedded to this idea at all, it's more of a discussion/debate that I hope will come up with some ideas that may help improve the Fallout Universe.
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Thanks for the input loolooigotsomeapples, all is welcome and I understand why you and I suspect many others, see this as not such great concept.
The thing is though, despite FO having a large established canon, doesn't mean in the future it could be changed. Just look at the two biggest comic producers, DC & Marvel, and within their own established canon/universes, there's been changes, retcon of all shapes and sizes even in the face of fan-base hostility. Oh, BTW, I absolutely agree with you on a need to do something about FO3, it just doesn't work for me. IMO it should have been set not long after FO1 when the BoS sent their airships east and coincided with events in the mid west or occurred not long afterwards. I believe that the time gaps between each FO game are just that bit too long. But's that just my take on it ;)
Carry on :thumbsup:
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I like the mining idea a lot although the returns should be very small as these mines would have been thoroughly picked over by 2281.
The gold bullets is a nice idea as well. Definitely increase the weapon degradation but because gold is such a dense element, it should do just that bit extra damage than say ordinary lead. Gold hollow point ammo would be very nasty on soft targets :devil:
Using gold to gilt metal armour is a great idea and I like the idea that if it's possible to implement the shinning armour perk if you use a bar to gilt say power armour.
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Name: Talwyn Aureliano
Gender: male
Age: early 30's
Race: Caucasian
Combat Style: He prefers sniping from cover often using the rifle Pinpoint found in the secret underground bunker [mod], then using a Thompson .45 SMG for medium to close up work, switching to pistols for fighting within buildings. At times he'll swap over to energy weapons, preferring the recharger pistol if he wants to travel light.
Specialties: An expert at lockpick, master of repair and able to jury rig almost anything and a wizards with guns.
Weaknesses: He dislikes getting into unarmed combat as he believes in the old saying, only idiots bring a knife to a gunfight. When it comes to barter he really doesn't care too much about the money as he knows that there is plenty more caps out there in loot on walking corpses who just don't know they're about to die. He's also leery about explosives, gets jumpy around them and prefers to stay clear of them if he can.
Likes: He loves to have good conversations with his friends and learning new things along the way. He enjoys helping people out as he's a great believer in the idea of paying it forward. You give out and good karma comes back in many ways. He thinks that Vegas should not be controlled by anyone but its own people.
Dislikes: He hates the Legion and the savagery it represents. Also acts like a Sneering Imperialist when it comes to raiders and scum like the Fiends. Slavery is an anathema to him and the more he learns of Legion the more he wants to take them down. He's not too keen on the NCR either as its leaders are corrupt, self serving and mostly incompetent fools. He absolutely loathes bugs of all kinds. Things like Giant Rad Scorpions always make him nervous and Cazadores are just outright terrifying. Anytime he sees them he stops whatever he was doing and kills them all immediately. If he finds any nests, it's one of the few times he'll use explosives in order to destroy the hives or nests.
Wants: To help establish the Autonomous Collective of the Mojave with YesMan and bring the wonders of the Big Empty to humanity.
Fears: That despite all his efforts, that Ulysses is right and that it is people who have to change and making people change is the hardest thing.
Friendly Factions: YesMan, Boomers, Mojave BoS, The Strip, The Kings, The Followers The Apocalypse, New Canaanites, Sorrows and Dead Horses, The Think Tank & Mobius, Great Khans, Remnants , Goodsprings, Novac, FreeSide, Jacobstown and cautious friendliness to only NCR troopers plus Col. Hsu
Enemy Factions: Legion, Mr House, Fiends, Raiders, Powder Gangers, WhiteLegs and all mutated insects and animals like Nightstalkers.
Companions: Willow, Craig Boone, Veronica Santangelo, Sharon Cassidy, Raul Tejada, Arcade Gannon and ED-E
Love interest?: He was having a casual relationship with Sarah Weintraub until he met Willow while on a patrol of the I-15 with Arcade. Since then he's been growing ever monre fond of her and their relationship has grown into something more than just friends.
Parents: Came out from Tucson before it was overrun by Legion and headed west as they'd heard tales of the NCR and how much better life was there. His parents though were killed by Giant Scorpions just west of Nipton and he only survived by hiding in some old wrecked aeroplane.
Early life: Spent the early years growing up around Two Sun before heading west.
Teen years: After the death of his parents he spent time in Nipton before managing to tag along with a Mojave Courier, eventually bvecoming one in his own right.
How did he/she become a courier?: By serving as an apprentice runner for a few years based out of Nipton and learning the ropes of the trade.
http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/images/2436305-1329182512.jpg
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Thanks for the replies :thumbsup:
Indeed people change their minds and rationalize many ideas and concepts that are incongruous, antithetical or hypocritical to one another. And I agree that the tasks that the Courier does for the BoS are not your usual favours.
Yet Veronica, who is a in-house member, gets shafted even though she brings back examples of technology that show that the BoS have to change their ways. And at the same time, Elder MacNamarra is happy to train you in power armour usage & give you the key to the club house even though they've only known you for a short while. And unfortunately for them, as DeusExElysium has pointed out, you can them blew them all to hell if you choose to do so. Again... that just makes me go... huh!?! :rolleyes:
It strikes me that they trust a stranger who's done albeit large favours for them far too much and ignore and belittle one of their own all too easily. For a supposedly advanced group, this its just plain stupidity and I feel is a weakness of the writers plotting of the games narrative structure. Maybe though this is why the BoS are doomed anyway, they are too idiotic for their own good. They can't see the massive potential threat to their existence by letting in a stranger and can't see that they should listen to one of their own members.
Hmm...I think on my next play through I'll just kill them all for being the idiots that they are.
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I think you are on the right track here.
FO4, when it comes out [rumoured for 2013 I think?] will have the new game engine that Skyrim is using, of that we can be fairly sure of.
I also suspect that FO4 will have many of the features that have been included in NV and for that matter, they'll see what the modding community here has done and incorporate many of those features into the new game. Things like Project Nevada make NV so much more than the vanilla release and its popularity via endorsements and downloads show clearly that it is a feature that people wnat from their gaming experience. They dev's at Obsidian and Bethesda pay attention to these sorts of things. I'm pretty certain that hardcore mode for NV came out due to the FWE mod for FO3. The Gun Runners arsenal must be due to the huge numbers of modded weapons that are out there.
Now I haven't played Skyrim yet as I'm about to upgrade my system in 2 months time so I can't comment on the game. Howevere I have heard that while its stunning visually, it lacks depth and character. I too hope that the dev's take on this criticism and increase the populations of NPC's etc of the settings.
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It lacks the depth that Fallout 1 and 2 built up to create a rich world. All it does is cut out the plot of Fallout 1 then glues it to the end of Fallout 2.
It's more one-dimensional, Fallout 3-ing of the Enclave.
Thanks for the replies folks, I appreciate your input.
:thumbsup:
I agree that it does cut a load of material out of the games and massively shortens the storyline however my reason is that I've always felt the the Enclave were badly handled as a evil plot force and as such, think that the Enclave should have emerged much earlier than they have in the games.
Carry on
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Its a matter of choice, you either get the game and play straight away when its initially released and pay top dollar or wait till the GOTY version comes out with all the DLC's thrown in.
Personally I get it on release and I'm regretting not getting the collectors edition as I've just joined a poker group and the NV cards & chips would have great to use. I believe in supporting the company that produce the games and they need that initial inflow of sales/cash from the release to justify the expense that's been invested into creating the game in the first place. It's all the bean counters really care about are the 1st months sales figures. Once they've shown they've made a profit then they don't care what happens after that. Sure they make more sales later on when the prices are discounted but they want the bang for their bucks right away.
For me its about enjoying the game now rather than waiting over a year to get hold of it and hearing how dam great it is from fellow gamers.
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Interesting discussion.
I think that the Enclave is still out there in the Fallout universe, post 2281.
We know ED-E was repaired by an still functioning Enclave base in Chicago.
We know that although the Raven Rock and Adams AFB enclave bases were destroyed by the Lone Wanderer and the Capital Wasteland BoS, Elder Lyons says that the Enclave aren't not yet wiped out, hinting that there may be more of them out there.
All these are verifiable canon facts via the Fallout Wikipedia.
In FO3 we see that the Enclave has well over 20 plus Vertibirds. You see about 6 scattered around the Capital wasteland after Raven Rock is destroyed plus during Take it Back there are another 6 or so to deal with during the battle. I can't recall how many you see at Adams AFB but it's between 6 to 12 VB's either parked on the ground or taking off. All this indicates that the East Coast Enclave were seriously tooled up for business and this begs the question: were all these VB's in storage or were they scattered around the east coast in single bunkers like the remnants hidden bunker up near Jacobs town? I suspect the later which means that in any future Fallout game, there is plenty of scope to include abandoned or perhaps even active Enclave bases. However I'd like to see the Enclave be used far more effectively as a evil force, able to really hurt the players interests if they don't deal with them in time.
Chicago is the most obvious place to have the Enclave operating from in any future FO game but as many people here have rightly said, there are dozens of locations in the US which could be potential locales for Enclave bases.
From my own PoV, I think the Enclave should take a minor role in any future FO game. I thought they were handled well in FONV with the remnants story line. You get to learn enough back story about them but you know that at least in the core region, the Enclave are just a scary story now used to frighten kiddies and not a force capable of doing anything significant to the major factions who inhabit the core region of the south west of the US.
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I've always thought that the the Mojave BoS are a real conundrum, a bit of a double standard and in a way a bunch of hypocrites.
First off when you meet them in the game, you learn that they are always very wary of outsiders, in fact if you don't approach with Veronica as a companion, they slap on a bomb collar on you and make you deal with an NCR ranger who's sniffing around Hidden Valley. After you gain entry either with Veronica or or by dealing with the Ranger, you learn that they've been in lock down for the past 5 years, only sending out very limited patrols and scouts into the Mojave and generally cowering from the outside world. You also learn that they don't want nor accept outside help, they are not interested in recruiting from outside their ranks and are solely fixated on acquiring, studying and preserving technology for its own sake. In fact there are rumblings within the BoS chapter itself, elements wishing the Couriers aid in overthrowing the current elder.
Yet once you've done a few quests for them, their dogmatic attitude suddenly has this remarkable sea change and low and behold, you're their best pal and if you complete all their quest lines they induct you as a member of the BoS. However if you go through Veronica's personal quest, "I could make you care" she argues in vain for Elder MacNamrra to change his stance on the BoS and their blind and dogmatic adherence to the Codex. He states they don't take in outsiders and don't need to change but yet in a total about face, he happily trains the Courier in the usage of power armour and grants full membership to the chapter after the courier completes Eyesight for the Blind.
Huh? :dry:
Does anyone else here see this as just as a massive drop in continuity and a total about face in regards to the so called blind adherence to the BoS Codex?
Either you don't accept outsiders or you do. You can't have it both ways.
Personally I think the writers of FONV make a complete balls up of this storyline of the game. The staggering hypocrisy that is shown towards Veronica, who has the BoS best interests at heart and is rejected even though she and the courier can bring overwhelming evidence to show the Elder that he needs to rethink his position, and then compare that to the way the Elder deals with the courier [who is an outsider] and after only knowing the courier for a brief while, suddenly says you're now one of us mate, is beyond belief.
You learn through the various logs and in the quest line to replace MacNamarra that the BoS have had past history where an elder is replaced as that's is what Hardin needs in order to get rid of MacNamarra. If the FONV writers had gone that little bit further, then perhaps they should have included the small but massively important fact that the BoS have indeed accepted outside help and have inducted outsiders into their order, namely the original Vault Dweller from Fallout 1! The courier should have been able to use a science skill check plus a high speech check and in addition have to search for more records in order to prove his case for admission as well as show MacNamarra that the BoS Codex isn't as inflexible as he makes it out to be.
I know its not really possible to alter the game now in order to fix this but I would like to know what other people think about this?
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No offense, but that idea is terrible.
None taken :)
Could you elaborate as to why you don't like the idea though?
Thing's about the game that don't make sense
in Spoilers
Posted
I agree absolutely that any system is limited to the programming it's set up with and this is reflected inn which the way the LW can convince Eden to initate a self destruct sequence by using simple logic. Again its a bit of a stretch narratively but it works to an extent.
The speech I quoted is probably the best evidence we have to base our assumptions that Eden was fully aware of the past mistakes made by the human members of the Enclave.
And the more I think on it, I am becoming more convinced that Eden "played to lose" so that America could have the best chance to rebuild. If we take the events in FO3 as any indicator then we can see that it's when Col. Autumn rebels, tha is when the Enclave become far more active and aggressive and specifically in Broken Steel when they really come out swinging by utilising the Orbital Missile launcher to attack the BoS. Eden is out of the picture and thus is unable to reign in the Enclave by this point but if he was indeed able to project outcomes and probabilities, its reasonable to assume he knew that the BoS and Enclave would also lose that battle too.
Although Eden tries to "turn" the LW into becoming his agent and insert the FEV into the Purifier, I think that he must have known that this was a long shot at best. Again we have to assume he gamed out all the possibilities and as such would have seen that outcome as highly unlikely that the LW would become an agent of the Enclave.