mdingman

FYI to those who think that the Legion doesn't do anything for the wasteland, just talk to Dale Barton in the fort, examine the Legion ending, etc. before making bold claims with no evidence to back them up.

If you think WWII didn't have a good side, you obviously know nothing about history. SHOCKW4VE, an independent vegas can't defend itself by itself. Without yes man/house, there is no robot army. There is already enough division between people in new vegas. They all won't assimilate under one banner. The BoS will fight anyone, the Families won't join together, etc. New Vegas has no resources. Any recources they would obtain after the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam would be off of the bodies of dead soldiers. As for the people of NCR and the Legion coming to new vegas, why would they do that? Just because they get kicked out of the Mojave doesn't mean their faction is dead. Far from it, both the NCR and the Legion would probably return. They would retreat to their homelands and regroup. New Vegas is in it's homeland already. Honestly, if you think that the PEOPLE of New Vegas could survive a combined Legion/NCR onslaught along with the in-fighting that's sure to occur? They don't have the robot army(which couldn't survive in that situation anyways). @Marharth, we are taking the player out of the equation. Things like Kimball's assassination, the Boomers getting their B-29, Caesar's cancer would've been cured, etc. because the faction/person had plans to accomplish their goals in those instances. The NCR would be in a horrible state due to the player not being present to help them, etc.

Ok, but what about afterwards? How can Yes-Man control the Mojave, take out or assimilate the minor factions, stand up to the Legion/NCR return that is sure to come, etc. Also, you might want to try the Legion ending so you can compare all of them before passing judgement.

What you said about how democracy is better is true, I'm just saying that NCR democracy is such a massive bureacracy and so corrupt that it cannot function effectively. Also, didn't a couple of the NCR's presidents rule for something like 70 years? That sounds like a monarchy to me. It's about as legitimate as the "Republic of Dave".(remember them?) I'm saying that the Followers themselves are helpless little babies. But if the Khans form an empire wwith the Followers' help, that sounds like the Khans have been taking lessons from Caesar and have assimilated or at least are using the Followers for their own gain. And, in that case, it would be the Khans taking over New Vegas(they're a monarchy as well), which is plausible for the takeover, but I don't think they would really last in the long run. The Followers have no teeth, they have no military, so somebody else would have to act for them. Also, your take on the United States REPUBLIC is incorrect. It is in fact the lower-middle and working(I hate that term by the way) classes that have far too much power. How else do you think a socialist president was elected? Why do you think that the liberals cater to illegal immigrants(emphasis on illegal)? Why do you think that the poor support Universal Healthcare, which, if you look at it, is doomed to push the country's debt beyond the point of no return? "Men are nearly always willing to believe what they wish."-Julius Caesar. Obama tells the poor that he's going to give them MORE free stuff, and it's not going to cost them anything. He tells them he's going to tax the rich to death,(who, according to the liberals, are inherently evil because it's not possible to become rich without exploiting the poor, defenseless, proletariat), and it's going to solve all their problems. He tells them this, and he gets elected.(and look where it's gotten us. great job liberals! Note the sarcasm). Why should we cater to the rich? The top 2% pay 95% of the taxes, paying for all the poor's medicare and food stamps while they sit at home and do nothing and live off of honest taxpayers.(not all poor people, just 44,981,890 of them as of 7:44 this morning.) The rich are the ones that start companies and create jobs. By taxing them, you destroy the economy. I could go on and on about this, but it's geting off topic. Bottom line, an autocratic government with a strong leader is the best government, the problem has always been with succession. The way Caesar raises his successors, however, ensures that his goals and his leadership carries on after his death. Nobody can tell what will happen after this, but at least for the near to medium future, the Legion will stay strong leadership-wise. And, is a democracy/republic any better succession-wise? You just need to show the masses a bright-and-shiny object and they will follow you, like Obama did. A democracy/republic can be just as worse off succession wise, especially a democracy like NCR, which doesn't have term limits.

@Frakle Exactly. Thank you for proving my point. What I've been trying to say this whole time is that the followers are not the best faction because they can't control the mojave, they're completely defenseless, and i would argue that they shouldn't even be considered a "faction" in the usual sense of the word. A faction can't be the best unless they have some sort of structure, longevity, etc. The Followers are basically a charity organization. I know that's overly simplistic but that's the root of it.

Is's possible that the BoS from FO3 could become a major power seeing as how they are more open to outsiders, but it would be a long time before they cross the whole country. Yes, the Legion is uptight, but you need to be uptight to have a strong society which is necessary for the empire caesar is building.

exactly.

Ok, marharth, this is like the 5th time i've had to tell you this, but the Followers don't have the manpower, the weapons, the desire, or the resolve needed to even pose a threat to any of the major factions. The Brotherhood, on the other hand, actually there is no other hand with them. The Brotherhood and the Followers are fundamentally the same, the only difference is that the Brotherhood can put up somewhat of a fight, and the Brotherhood keeps all their tech for themselves while the Followers use it to help people. Even in an alliance, they wouldn't have the manpower to take over even if they wanted to, which the Brotherhood doesn't. They are an introverted society that cares little for the problems of the outsiders. eLucifer, the NCR is such a corrupt and backwards society(how corrupt and backwards it is myself and others have outlined in previous posts so I won't get into the details), that it can't function well in California, let alone the Mojave. Everyone you talk to about NCR(non-affiliated people that is), tells you that being under their jurisdiction is being a slave in all but name, just talk to the old guy in Primm(forgot his name) after the NCR takes control. By the way, yes, the Roman Empire did fall, all Empires fall, from the Sumerians to the present, every single empire in the history of the world has fallen once it stagnated and stopped conquering(or got it's a** kicked). Point is, every empire will fall unless(Like the British empire) it removes itself from being an empire and thus saves itself from collapse. But befor Rome fell, it was the greatest civilization the world had ever seen before(and some say since), and it has undoubtedly influenced Western society more than any other civilization in the history of the world. Theoretically, if an Empire keeps conquering, maintains it's military power, continually has a purpose, and can ensure a succession of good leaders, it will never fall. The Legion has all of these aspects so far, and Caesar has no intention of letting the Legion stagnate after his death. I know you are going to bring up Lanius, but I've addressed that point about 15 times(maybe more), so read the earlier posts. Finally, the Legion assimilates people in such a way that they lose all of their previous cultural identity and therfore identify completely with the Legion after a few generations. Just look at how many tribes(80-something I think) are now completely Legionized in one man's lifetime! And he's not dead yet! Now I just want to outline something because of what marharth said Obviously the best faction would be whichever the Courier chooses to side with, so we are removing him from the equation. Pretty much you pick a faction to gain control and then argue for the faction of your choice's viability. Obviously, some things will have to be addressed then, like the boomers wouldn't have their B-24(or B-29 i can't remember) because they would've stayed in Nellis, Caesar however, wouldn't have died from his brain tumor because he knew where to get the parts for the auto-doc and he could've just had the Legion descend on Vault 30-something(can't remember, in case you can't tell I haven't played FoNV for a while), Kimball would've been assassinated because if the player wasn't there the assassins would've succeeded(the sniper especially), and there are other instances that could just be logically figured out, just figure out what would've happened if the player didn't get involved. One final note, I'm not going to be posting for a while(I've got a busy summer), so your Legion-bashing will have to go unanswered for a while unless someone else defends them.

The Enclave was small to start with, consisting of the rich and powerful in the USA's government. They obviously increased in number over the years,but after the events of fallout 3(and the preceding games), they no longer have a president or a commander. They may have replaced them, but the replacements would be inept most likely seeing as how they would send all of their best men to take the Capitol Wasteland. However, audio logs from E-D-E reveal that there is an outpost in Chicago.(however, the recording also reveals that a researcher at ADAMS AIR FORCE BASE was sending E-D-E to the NAVARRO OUTPOST. It doesn't bode well for the Enclave that the people at Adams Air Force Base were unaware of their MAIN OUTPOST'S destruction for 40 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). The Chicago outpost's Enclave members, however, have probably gone the way of the Mojave remnants, living in isolation or joining other factions.

I've already said that the sexism is the thing that I am most opposed to in the Legion(I said that in the last paragraph of post 55). I really don't see a point except for forced reproduction(which I find appalling by the way). Just because I sympathize with the Legion overall doesn't mean I support everything they do, it just means that I think that the pros outweigh the cons, especially when compared to other factions. I'm fine with the brutality, and I understand the slavery, but I don't agree with the sexism. So not ALL Legion apologists support that.

@FishFiend: The whole point of treating people like the Legion does is to erase their identity and their culture. Doing this gives them nothing to rally behind. And, as you can see, the slaves wouldn't have much of a chance in a revolt seeing as how they are all limping around with huge packs on their backs. The slave revolt(if there is one), won't be like the Pitt. The Legion slaves don't have auto-axes. The Legionnaries would put them down and would certainly never join them. That concept in itself is rediculous due to their loyalty(which is made clear by the fact that they have plenty of opprotunities to revolt, desert, or sabotage the Legion but they don't). As for Mr. House, he is not going to last. Even if he is able to drive the Legion and NCR out, they will return, and he will be sandwiched between forces totalling in the MILLIONS, against his mere thousands. And, last time I checked, Securitrons can't snipe. NCR has snipers, Legion has snipers(i'm using the Caesar's Legion Overhaul mod which I highly recommend as it makes things more balanced in terms of combat and overall presence.). That is how house would be defeated. the Legion and/or NCR will fight a war of attrition, which they will undoubtedly win. Even if House withdraws all of his forces to the Strip itself, he could be killed easily if somebody brinds along a howitzer and blows up the Lucky 38.(the Legion has a howitzer, although I never saw the NCR with one). In addition, what about the Boomers? They could annihilate the Strip entirely! Finally, the Legion could just charge in with Melee Weapons, keeping the Securitrons(upgaded I presume) from using their missile launchers due to friendly fire(which they can't have seeing as how they are terribly outnumbered). House isn't a "brilliant tactician". He's a schemer, yes, but he hasn't been tested in combat itself. Also, the securitrons are NOT replaceable. There is no Securitron factory, the Securitron vault is just that, a storage facility. And as for him being a "very logical person," Otto von Bismarck was a logical person, as was Admiral Yamamoto, Napoleon Bonaparte, General Cornwallis, and many others throughout history. They were military geniuses and very "logical" thinkers, yet that didn't forestall their demise. House, also, does not have the whole region rigged to his favor. The people who are supposed to be his allies, the families of the Strip, are plotting against him! That's how the Courier got shot in the head in case you don't remember. House is alone. House has no allies. House has many enemies. House is outnumbered. House is outgunned. House is vulnerable. House has no chance. Sorry about the double-post I didn't notice until after I posted

Nero(and Caligula) are exactly why I said MOSTLY good emperors. On the whole, Rome had great rulers: Augustus Caesar, who was arguably the greatest leader in all of history, Trajan, Hadrian, Marcus Aurelius, Constantine the Great, just to name a few Imperial rulers, and even before the Empire, they had leaders and generals like Cincinnatus, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus, and others. After a guy named Commodus(who was assassinated by his wrestling coach) came along, that's when the cycle of in-fighting, poor leadership, assassination, and stagnation began(briefly halted by some good emporers such as Constantine). So, yes, eventually the Roman Empire did fall, but while it stood it was the pinnacle of human existence. They were extremely advances and even had semi-automatic weapons(not with gunpowder obviously, but they had ballistas that held multiple bolts at once) They had technology that matches what we have today, and much of modern engineering is based off of what they accomplished. They even had Greek Fire, a weapon that we haven't even discovered how to make!(napalm is close but it's not quite the same thing). Now I know that the Romans had flaws, but we can learn a lot from them. We could solve the problem of Illegal Immigration if we implemented what they did. (If you need verification look up the Auxilia). As for those books, a quick summary would be appreciated as I have finals coming up. Personally, I agree with the belief that the government should not infringe on your rights in any way(that's why I hate the EPA, gun control, socialism, communism, and all other oppressive ideologies, laws, and organizations). I am extremely right-wing. However, drugs(AKA Chems), are the one exception in that I think that the government should intervene. I know that some consider it an infringement on their rights, but the results of drug use(especially if it was legal), are too damaging to both people and society to go unchallenged.

I'm back, sorry about the wait my life got pretty usy for a while. Thanks to all of you who responded with intelligent arguments. To all those who use fallacies or make arguments that have been previously addressed, or no argument at all(post 52), just leave. There have been so many responses since I left that I can't read them all so I'm going to just go off of the last few @ Thedragonemperor Thank you, that was my goal from the beginning, to create a topic where people could debate the merits of different factions intelligently. @ Neariox, i'm just going to ignore you. You obviously tweaked the game because what you said you did is impossible. Then you said "good or evil", are you kidding me!!! @Lt. Albrecht, i agree that our first impressions color the NCR as "good" and the Legion as "evil". But, the NCR's greatest evils are utter failure, massacre of civilians at Bitter Springs, subjugation and opression of their people, corruption, a terrible economy, and being about as inefficient as possible. I agree that Lanius is bad, and as far as the dog-trainer goes, hes crazy. But, people like Caesar and Lucius redeem them, and I might add, are much better than the cowardly, indecisive, and outright stupid bureaucrats like kimball, who one person(i can't remember who) said that they "don't know which end is his ass and which end is his head" As I have said before, the Legion rejects tech(for now) because they don't have access to much of it. Caesar knows that if they rely too much on tech when there's not enough of it to go around, the Legion will crumble. The Legion, once they gain access to the tech in the Mojave(more so if they take over California because of the Gun Runner factories), they will undoubtedly learn to replicate and implement it in their society. And, thermic lances are melee weapons, and are far more simplistic to maintatin and create than robots or other advanced tech. As for the distribution of weapons, every citizen of the Legion has one!!! We don't know if the people who are part of the Legion but not in the army have weapons because the game doesn't give us any insight into Legion lands(more unfair portrayal of the Legion). Which Roman Empire are you referring to in your last paragraph? The greatest civilization of all time thats people were actually treated well(compared to other civilizations of the time), and with no power struggle between the elite for hundreds of years due to (mostly) strong leadership, or are you talking about the post-3rd(or 4th i can't remember) century Roman Empire that was all that you describe it as because of long periods of peace and stagnation? I think the Legion is best simply because there is no better or more viable option. Sources in the game say that Legion lands have no raiders or bandits of any kind. How well has the NCR done with that? Now, I'm not saying that I agree with everything the Legion does. The sexism is what I least agree with. The slavery and brutality are not the most delicate methods to win a war and assimilate a people, but they're damned effective. I agree with their banning of chems though, and I don't know why (some)people don't agree with this. Chems only cause problems(THE FIENDS), in the game as they do in real life.

Personally, I liked the Legion ending. they rooted out the powder gangers and fiends, and everyone is generally happy. They really aren't that brutal in conquest(caesar extends his invitation to join the Legion to everyone who's worth it). The only reason the events in Nipton transpired the way they did was because the people there tried to screw over the Legion(not to mention the people there were the scum of the earth anyways), and they were trying to destroy NCR morale. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, if you aren't prepared to do what is necessary in war, then don't go to war. The Legion is prepared to do what is necessary, and in Nipton they did exactly that. Additionally, the Legion is rich, just look at the exchange rates from Denarii to caps vs. NCR money to caps. Legion money is worth 400% in caps, while NCR money is worth 40% in caps. And, if you talk to enough people, Legion lands are the safest around, and the Legion would take out all of the raiders and defend against all outside threats. Another reason they would be better is because they don't allow chems, which cause tons of problems. I never really liked NCR because they were just one huge bureaucracy, not to mention they're inefficient, poor, and corrupt. I never liked house because he is kind of sketchy, like someone you could act like your best friend and then stab you in your sleep. Furthermore, he's too vulnerable and reliant on others. As for yes man, he's even more sketchy than house, especially when, at the end, he says that he's going to change his programming to make him more "assertive" anyone else smell betrayal? One final thing that i didn't like about the 2 robot army endings is that, well, they use robots. In a post-apocalyptic wasteland, technology will break down, and there aren't any factories to make more securitrons(the vault is just a storage facility), so there just isn't any longevity in those endings.

ROFL i actually heard somewhere that the burned man was a possible follower in Van Buren, but I don't know how someone could possibly survive what he went through. Why would you want him as a follower anyways? i don't even know why Caesar made him legate, his tactics were horrible, he sucks at warfare! By the way i want to make an amendment to my perfect ending: Instead of having you kill the BoS, Caesar forcibly assimilates them into the Legion and uses their knowledge of tech to rebuild the Mojave and create factories so that the Legion doesn't have to abstain from using tech due to not having enough parts for repairing weapons(I know that you could say that repairing works fine for the character, especially with the jury rigging perk, but when you're talking about repairing/producing weapons for the entire Legion, you can't just use what you have scavenged/looted).