Both excellent answers and what i meant by grabbing the rose is that in my mind humans depending how you look can either be very destructive or kind and something i often say as i look at our world this is the world we have created for ourselves from the marvelous to the destructive we are what we want to be what our world is how we envision what we want it to be and do please forgive my romanticization of what i say :geek: :laugh: ~cheers