tempwayne

Right. This is exactly what I mean too. I don't want the staff to look at every mod when it is uploaded. When you get reports from a mod, look at it. If it's too offensive, remove it. Sometimes, it might be on the borderline, and a moderator might decide to remove it to be on the safer side. This is where I'm asking you, the moderators, to tag it as potentially offensive instead of removing it. Since only the moderators are doing the tagging(and since we all trust you), we don't expect any abuse from average users to affect the "Potentially offensive tag". I don't expect your work to increase at all. The number of reports will anyway be the same irrespective of whether the "offensive" tag exists. So you'll be looking at the same number of mods. The only difference is that you have an extra option. The NSFW tag isn't going to capture most of the selectively offensive mods, is it?

Here's a summary of what I mean: There are many of us who THINK that we do not get offended by any mod. However, we understand that you as the admins and moderators don't want Nexusmods to start hosting racist/other ultra-offensive content, because it lowers the reputation and character of the community as a whole. You have been taking care of removing such mods so far. There might be a number of mods which many of us are okay with, but several others aren't, and hence, you guys might be in a dilemma on whether to take them down. I'm suggesting that you instead tag them as "potentially offensive", and keep the takedowns for the really offensive mods. People who are slightly sensitive can stay away from the offensive tagged mods(just like some stay away from the adult section), while people who want slightly controversial(but mods that you deem aren't bad enough to throw out of the site) mods can look at those. This is NOT a request to stop taking down mods, or to ask you to take down mods. That is entirely up to you. Instead, use this method to make your life easier by warning people before they look at such content, or helping them stay away from such content, as well as giving more "resilient-minded"(can't think of a better word) people the content they want, within the bounds of the law and sanity.

The same way they will/won't stay on the site under the current system. Presently(without my suggestion being implemented), say the two mods you say are uploaded. One gets taken down, and the other doesn't. You do know that mods are taken down even now, right? How do you explain that to the authors now? Doesn't every mod already pass through a filter now? If people report a mod now, doesn't it get taken down? And this takedown process is still subject to what the moderators think of the mod, and is again guided by their opinion. Okay, "considerable debate" might be too subjective. What I really mean is, the moderators determine that the mod might be offensive to some, and not offensive to others.

Oh, so you don't already decide what is offensive and what is not? Who takes down offensive mods now? And what criteria do you currently use to take down mods? I'm asking that you use something similar to classify relatively less offensive mods as "potentially offensive", and take down the extremely offensive ones.

@zaty1 : So, will the exploding horse and the exploding cat mods(or another pair of mods in your example) stay on the site or not? Do you mean that they both need to be taken down to avoid offending people, or do you mean that they both need to stay on the site? While I want them both to stay, the moderators might not be okay with that because more people will get offended. My solution is, keep them both in a separate section. Isn't it better than taking both down?(I'm saying for the umpteenth time that I don't want either to be taken down, but this is a compromise). People who think that they might be offended have to lose out on mods that offend others but not them, because they get offended by some mods. @zaty1, @sherameyn: The cost of viewing a mod that might be offensive to some people is that you HAVE to look at other offensive mods. A mod such as babies on hooks will be deemed too offensive for anyone, and the moderators will take it down anyway(which is what happens now, so it's not a problem with the method that I suggest).

No, No, No. I'm personally not offended by any mod. In an ideal case, I would want all mods to stay on the site. However, there are mods which a large group of people might feel offended about, while another large group thinks that they're pretty cool in a video game(i.e. there's not a clear consensus about whether they're offensive). I'm asking you to tag them separately instead of taking them down. Concrete example, a mod that brings in slavery(without any racist connotations). I don't care about such mods being on the site, cuz it's a video game anyway. Many others WILL feel offended, and I understand their view. What will you do in this case?

Oh come on man, you're arguing against moderators removing offensive mods. Please, lets keep that for a separate discussion. The "where do you draw the line?" question is something that applies to taking down mods as well. That's not the subject of this discussion. GIVEN(like a conditional distribution in your high school probability) that moderators WILL find some mods so offensive that they have to be taken down, and GIVEN that some mods are not THAT offensive, here's my solution. We're assuming that you guys(moderators) know when a mod is very offensive(in which case you currently delete them). But, when you guys feel that a mod will be offensive to "some" people, but many others will be okay with it, perhaps a tag that it is POTENTIALLY offensive might ease your decision of whether you want to retain that mod on the site. You'll be forced to delete a lesser number of mods.

Most people have stayed away from discussing politics or abusing each other. Thread locking now would be an unfortunate event, since we all seem to be having a nice, relevant discussion like educated Englishmen/women. :blush:

@sherameyn: haha, guess we're all on edge. I do not propose the "offensive" tag to push a set of mods into a corner because they might hurt someone. I want such a tag because without it, the moderators will have to chose between "forcing" everyone to see it, and removing it altogether. Such a tag will help more mods stay on the site, I guess. It's akin to the "adult" section(which is rather clearly defined), which helps users who want to access such content to get them, and others who wish to stay away from them to do so. Again, the final say on whether a mod gets the "offensive" tag rests with the moderators, just like presently whether a mod gets taken down is.

I never said that slavery in real life is "not hurting anyone". Please refrain from posting political/bait comments. It is clear from what I've said everywhere that I mean "some people may not be offended by the presence of slavery in mods in video games, while others will". If you did understand what I meant(slavery in mods in video games may not be offensive to some, but is offensive to the rest), then you(when contrasted with others who think that slavery in video games is just slavery in video games) just proved my point. In your first paragraph, you appear to be arguing against taking down mods in itself. That is not what I'm arguing for/against. I hope that you know that presently, when the moderators deem a mod to be very offensive, they take the mod down. All the problems that you've suggested here are those faced by moderators when they receive reports from an "offensive" mod. Tagging a set of mods as being offensive is a positive attempt at warning people that they are going to be looking at content that MAY BE offensive to them, depending on who they are, and what they believe. As for why you want to knowingly open an "offensive" category to look at stuff, it's simply because you accept that you are ready to face content that MIGHT hurt your feelings, and want to see a greater selection of mods. Can you be offended that your opinion is categ. as offensive? Well, you chose to look in the "potentially offensive" section, which means that you were ready to face a possible realization that your opinion has been categorized as "offensive". It's like schrodinger's cat you see, as long as you don't open the box, you don't know whether your opinion is categorized as offensive or not. So, if you feel that you might feel offended that your opinion is perceived as offensive, don't open the "potentially offensive" section? Please, let's not speak of hyperboles like "what if my opinion being offensive is offensive to me"? Such things are important when you draft a nation's constitution, but here, we are trusting people to have some level of goodwill, and are attempting to make the community better for everyone but streamlining content.

I'm pretty much convinced that a few (extremely offensive, with intent) mods indeed need to be deleted. Again, I want to clarify this: There are three kinds of mods: 1. Not offensive to anyone. Say HD textures for bullets. 2. Very offensive, created with the intent of hurting peoples' feelings. Like mods that allow YOU to be a Nazi and kill people of a single race. Or mods with child-molesting. 3. The gray area: Slavery, child killing, etc. For type 2, we seem to know what to do: ban them. For type 3, we don't really have a solution. Some people are offended by these, while some are not. When a mod author creates a mod that lets children be killed, he/she could consciously understand that this mod might be offensive to some people, and tag it as "Offensive". If the mod author fails to do that, a moderator can, on the request of users. When a user CHOOSES that he/she wants to see mods that are offensive, they are signing up for the whole barrage of type 3 mods. The result is that less sensitive people get offended, because if someone is sensitive, they wouldn't choose to see mods under the offensive tag anyway. See, even presently, the more offensive(which, you agree is somewhat subjective) mods are straightaway taken down, while borderline offensive mods are visible to everyone. An alternative that I offer is: 1. Remove a mod if it is very offensive. 2. If there's considerable debate on whether it is offensive, do not take it down, but put it under the Offensive tag. Only people who are ready for this will see them, just like adult content(which is more clear in its definition, I guess).

Ah, you miss my point, friend. Marking mods as offensive will be done by the moderators, and not by users. Users can only report mods to be offensive, just like it happens now. So the system can't be abused in this way. It doesn't lead to any additional work on the side of the moderators, since they anyway have to go to the trouble of taking down mods in the present system.

Okay, now I see your point. Some mods do deserve to die. I might sound like a parrot repeating the same line over and over, but can we at least have the "Offensive" tag for mods like slavery and baby killing that are not offensive to all people? Many users have issues with some of these mods too. Again, let me reiterate, it is not the clearly offensive mods that we have this discussion for. It's for the gray area.

Sorry bro, I didn't think of all the possible choices that people would think of. I assumed that my list was pretty exhaustive within the context. :pirate: Jokes aside, do vote(in this poll, I do not care about your country's political elections). A clear consensus is always better than a divided vote.

That is exactly what I feared this topic would become, and attempted to avoid that as much as possible with my initial post. Didn't work. I'm just asking the private site we all love to create a system that satisfies the expectations of as many people as possible(with the exception of the trolls). Once again, I request people to not go to politics. This is not a discussion about whether people are offended by Nazis and Soviets and American soldiers. The topic of discussion is whether we could add a new tag that describes that these mods are offensive. If the community decides that extremely offensive mods need to be taken down, at least mods that are offensive for only some people can be put under this tag and it would save a lot of trouble.

Suppose a user decides to put the Confederate flag(I guess someone has already done it), what would our course of action be? I don't know enough about the United States to understand all its meaning, but I do understand that while some Southerners think of it as a symbol of pride, many people are offended by it, as for them, it is a symbol of slavery. Instead of choosing between forcing everyone to look at this mod, and outright deleting it, why don't we make it optional for people to even see that such a mod exists? Some things like Nazism being Evil have a clear-cut understanding and consensus among people, but there are several other mods that may or may not be offensive depending on who you are.

Sir, I assure you that I have no sympathy for Nazi ****hits. To prevent any misunderstanding, I put that in the first post of mine. Yet, you still assume that I'm "one of them". Again, this topic is not just about flags and uniforms, but also other things that some people would find offensive, like Slavery, or killable children, or replacing Fatman with a baby. I understand that this is a private site, which is what I said(again in my first post). However, we're not talking about what Nexusmods "has to do", but what the most ethical course of action is.

There are several mods for which we may not have such clear distinctions. For example, mods that add slavery will be offensive to many communities. However, New Vegas itself had slavery in it, and the player himself/herself could choose to endorse a fictional faction that was firmly believing that slavery and treating women like cattle was the way forward for overcoming the apocalypse. What should our response be if a mod that allows the player to run a slave trade comes out? Many would argue that in a world without civilization like the Fallout universe, slavery is only expected, while others would point out the hurtful effect it may have on many people. In response to the "killable children" mod, a parent replied that he/she felt very offended that people would go to the extent of creating such a mod to a game. What do we do in such cases that aren't black and white? Like you said, when USSR and Nazi clothing is added only for the sake of historical accuracy, why remove it? Why not just classify it as offensive? There are a lot of people who would hate the Nazis, and would still like to add Nazi mods(maybe so that they can destroy a fictional Nazi settlement?) Maybe you can ban the aggressively offensive mods that clearly show that their intent is to troll teh forums and push buttons, for instance, a mod that says "Kill the Indians!". (but personally, I would like downloading and choosing to view such mods to be left to each user).

Yeah, new account since I don't remember stuff that can help me recover my old account. :D Generation of offensive comments itself shouldn't be a direct reason for pulling down mods. If a few users are posting offensive comments that directly attack people, then those accounts can be banned separately. Even the killable children mod(which was not taken down by the moderators) had a pretty venomous comment thread. A lot of mods that are slightly controversial have comments filled with rage. The thing is, when it's very difficult to draw a line, why don't we take the route that fulfills everyone's wishes? Shouldn't users decide that? Isn't that the point of a community website? I understand that Nexusmods pays for hosting content, but don't nexusmods users contribute to the site immeasurably, and hence, shouldn't THEY collectively make a choice to boycott such mods? Trust me, I do feel deeply offended every time someone says bulls*** supporting the Nazis, but shouldn't we just leave it to each individual to refuse to support or endorse(by downloading) such content? I'm guessing that most of us hate Nazis, and it'll be a tiny bunch of closed people who would be sharing these within themselves. Every time we censor evil content, we are just letting such hateful people portray themselves as victims of oppression. Instead, why don't we let them upload their mods and discover that nobody likes their stuff? It's different from letting people freely spamming forums with offensive content, since you have to open a mod to look at the content in contrast to a forum where one can simply create spam threads/posts. I agree. We cannot simply watch people abuse other people/races/communities/etc., but I'm specifically talking about mods on the borderline, like say exploding heads for kids, adding Nazis as a faction, etc. Mods where the author clearly says things like "Haha, f*** you all, I'm trolling the mod site by posting this Nazi flag" are totally against the spirit of the community, but it's the gray area where we should avoid unilateral banning.

The accountable part comes in when Nexus might face legal troubles for hosting content, such as what happens when you host copyrighted content for illegal downloads. Facebook and Google+ take down offensive content only to avoid hurting peoples' feelings, right? Not because they are forbidden by law from hosting such content. Maybe a disclaimer that Nexusmods is not legally responsible for any offensive content would do the job? What I'm suggesting is slightly similar to what Call of Duty did for the No Russian mission in one of their games. Maybe we can even disable viewing offensive content by default, and force users to switch it on themselves if they want to view such content? One more thing: I'm assuming that when someone votes that it's not feasible, it means that they actually want such a system, but believe that it is not possible in terms of its implementation. In other words, if you think that such mods should be taken down, do not vote that the given system is not feasible.

Hi all, first of all, let me state at the outset that I'm strictly against discrimination of any kind. Racism, sexism, etc. are a strict no for me. Hell, I sided with the Railroad since I believe that even Artificial Intelligence can have feelings. Also, I try not to offend anyone, either on the internet, or face to face. I've not posted on NM before regarding a similar topic. A summary for moderators/admin: There are many of us who THINK that we do not get offended by any mod. However, we understand that you as the admins and moderators don't want Nexusmods to start hosting racist/other ultra-offensive content, because it lowers the reputation and character of the community as a whole. You have been taking care of removing such mods so far. There might be a number of mods which many of us are okay with, but several others aren't, and hence, you guys might be in a dilemma on whether to take them down. I'm suggesting that you instead tag them as "potentially offensive", and keep the takedowns for the really offensive mods. People who are slightly sensitive can stay away from the offensive tagged mods(just like some stay away from the adult section), while people who want slightly controversial(but mods that you deem aren't bad enough to throw out of the site) mods can look at those. This is NOT a request to stop taking down mods, or to ask you to take down mods. That is entirely up to you. Instead, use this method to make your life easier by warning people before they look at such content, or helping them stay away from such content, as well as giving more "resilient-minded"(can't think of a better word) people the content they want, within the bounds of the law and sanity. A step by step process: 1. A mod is uploaded, and it's being reported as offensive.(No additional work for anyone) 2. A moderator takes a look at it, and decides "how offensive" the mod is. (No extra work) 3. If very offensive, delete it.(What you usually do) 4. If moderator thinks that it's offensive(with proper justification) only to some people and can exist on the site, put it in the "potentially offensive category", and don't delete it. In the current system, you would either choose to delete the mod, or retain it. Or, you can choose that it's not really offensive at all, and put it the "normal" category. (no extra work - just an extra choice) 5. Easy peasy! Update 2: The discussion repeatedly veers towards whether mods need to be taken down or not. That's not among my primary concerns. I'm pretty sure that some mods are going to be taken down, and this is non-negotiable(the Admin said that). If you think they shouldn't be, then start a separate thread(which some did). This thread is about adding a separate tag for those mods that maybe offensive to some people(within reason), and hence allow such mods to survive too(instead of deleting them straightaway). It's similar to adding an "adult" tag for mods that contain such content. Moderators do not have to worry about people who don't want to see such content stumbling across them, while people who want adult mods can still get the content that they want. Update: After this discussion, here's my suggestion: presently, the more offensive(which, you agree is somewhat subjective) mods are straightaway taken down, while borderline offensive mods are visible to everyone. An alternative that I offer is: 1. Remove a mod if it is very offensive. 2. If there's considerable debate on whether it is offensive, do not take it down, but put it under the Offensive tag. Only people who are ready for this will see them, just like adult content(which is more clear in its definition, I guess). Onward now: While I understand that Nexusmods is a privately owned site(and hence is not obliged to provide Freedom of Speech, etc.), the presence of several offensive mods, and their removal has ruffled a few feathers. Here's the situation as I see it: 1. One group of people feel that mods themselves are not content that influence real world(e.g. child killing mods do not mean that anyone installing/uploading them wants to kill children in real life), and hence their offensiveness is not something that should be grounds for them being taken down. Some offensive content are simply made in a lighter vein, perhaps like what Charlie Hebdo did, and can be enjoyed by people when it's in a video game, or a cartoon, or a movie. 2. A second group of people feel that the whole point of freedom of speech, is that even offensive content has to be freely shared (a.k.a I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it). Such people believe that any authority(public, or private) taking down content for any reason(unless it clearly incites violence) is indeed performing the act of censorship. Whether it is towards the benefit of humanity is irrelevant while answer the question of WHETHER it is censorship. 3. A third group of people feel that lot of people have deep emotional pains associated with certain topics(e.g. me being Indian, I would be terribly angry at mods that glorify the British colonial occupation of our country. In fact, even mutated cows being called Brahmin can be quite offensive to some people, since Brahmin is the name of a community of people, like Hispanic is.), and we must be inclusive of them. Arguments like "Don't like it, don't download it" might not hold water against some instances of this issue, since even looking at such imagery/content might cause uncomfortable/painful memories and feelings to surface in many of us. I think that all the aforementioned groups have valid points in what they are trying to convey, and we as a community, must make our best efforts to accommodate them all to the best of our abilities. Here's what I propose(pretty obvious from the heading): How about, we add a tag for mods that say whether they might be "offensive" to any group of people? The mod authors or moderators themselves can do this, and users who do not wish to see such content can tag block offensive content. Essentially, we're replacing the "take down a mod" process with "tag it as offensive". I'm assuming that most mod authors who make content that would be perceived as offensive would be pretty okay with their mod being tagged so. The positives: 1. Nobody feels that there's any censorship on NM. 2. People who might be sensitive to such content can choose not to view them. 3. Everybody happy happy. Some minor issues include: 1. Mod authors might intentionally refuse to tag their content as being offensive: That's what the moderators are for. Instead of taking down mods, they would simply be tagging them as offensive. I do not know whether tags in general can be added by all users(which may or may not be a good idea for the Offensive tag). Perhaps the moderators can have the final say on whether it is offensive or not, whenever they receive a number of reports. 2. Not all offensive content are offensive to all people. Here, I'm assuming that if a user decides to not block offensive content, he/she is ready to face the barrage of all such mods. While not a perfect solution, it is still a better reconciliation of the conflicting ideas I've described above, than simply taking such mods down. 3. Some mods simply should not exist. Adding such a feature wouldn't be terribly difficult, would it? What do you all think? P.S.: This is not a political discussion. I hope that the replies are more along the lines of whether such a feature be feasible(both technically, and in its success on implementation), and maybe, support/opposition for said feature. Do vote in the topic poll! P.P.S: Personally, I think that with freedom of speech comes great responsibility, and mod authors must refrain from generating content that is intentionally offensive. Why don't we all smile at each other and stop saying stuff we know will offend the other people? Never mind, this is beside the point.