blackninja50

@MidbossVyers what dose killing solders have to do with my question? Also, war may occasionally be a necessarily evil, but no matter how necessarily, it is always an evil. (That's a vary old saying). And before you say some retarded thing like "Only solders die in war" just in the battle of Okinawa the US lost 74,000 men the Japaneses 130,000 men and 150,000 civilians where killed. @Kayyyleb Ho, so now it has to be good for the well-being of a community? Genocide can easily be good for the well-being of the community committing it. It give you the land of those you killed, it gives you there wealth, there recourses and it ensure that the other group will never attack you because they are gone. The ancient peoples of the world did it all the time the Europeans did it to the native of the Americas. So I would say seemingly senseless genocide is vary effective at achieving goals and is a vary good thing for the well-being of the community committing it.

@Kayyyleb I looked up the word and what I was originally talking about was good and evil/ethics. So actually your staminate about morality (used to refer to actual, real-world beliefs and practices concerning proper conduct) was correct, it's completely subjective, but it's also completely irrelevant to what I was talking about. You agreed that "the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is NOT justifiable" Here's the thing. For something to be considered morally gray it must be justifiable in some way, if it's not justifiable it's morally BLACK/evil. So you just admitted there is such a thing as black and if theres black the world can't be all gray. What's more if you where dieing (and did NOT want to die) and I saved you life with no ulterior motive would that me a morally gray action? (don't forget you said there's no such thing as morally white/good or morally black/evil). @jonarus_drakus The Nazi death camps where extremely successful in there goal (killing people the Nazi's hated), they where perfectly within the rules/standards of the time (the Nazi made there own rules/standards) so how is it they don't fit in your description of "the right thing to do"? Also, how dose public opinion change how tarable the Nazi death camps where? To answer your question yes, no one gives a damn about the POWs and non Jews killed in the death camps. So, if the Nazi's had not killed any Jews no one would have called them evil but the death camps would still have been just as evil. The mass extermination of racial/religious grups for something they were born with (born into), is ALWAYS the "right" path IF your goal is to kill off a racial/religious group. Unless you know a way to kill of a racial/religious group without killing. PS. Hitler's/the Nazi's aim was to establish a New Order of absolute Nazi German hegemony in continental Europe. And killing off most none Nazi Germans was the best way to do that. Back on topic one of my "What have I done?" Moments was after I killed off the vampire clan in the end of Dawnguard I thought "You know? If I had joined them they would have been my allies and I would have got to know them maybe even become friends. But now I'm killing them just so I can kick Harkon's ass". The anther time was when I did "The Forsworn Conspiracy" and found Eltrys dead in the shrine. Of course I want and did the right thing sending all the guards in Markarth to Oblivion :devil: to bad the towns people didn't see it that way... But that's what saves are for.

@Kayyyleb REALLY? Then how is it murder and stilling are crimes in every country on the world? How is it people that never had anything to do with each other can agree that harming another person unprovoked is wrong? Well? Simple, there's a universal standard of morality that all humans instinctively have (I did not com up with this). Personal question: Do you think the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is justifiable?

@jonarus_drakus So your saying that the Nazi death camps, Japaneses death camps, Communist death camps, Catholic inquisition and The first crusade where the right thing to do? Simply because they where tailored to the conditions/circumstances and where successful dissipate being some of the worst horrors ever commuted by man? That's down right twisted. Evil is NOT at all subjective, evil is willfully harming or trying to harm another (the only possible exaction is self defense) this has been a recognized fact throwout all know history even children know this. The only "subjective" thing about evil is how evil a given action is. Evil has a VARY big place in the real world and is a vary real thing.

I actually did exactly that yesterday (I was just trying random things and it seemed like a good idea at the time) but I missed one robe, the one I had in my inventory and was using to test if what I was doing worked or not :facepalm: . If you hadn't explained it I would probably have continued doing random things for who knows how long. Thank you :biggrin:.

@kradus Then buy a flower :geek: at lest she will sell you one not like that false advertiser Gloorolros "fresh sticks" he says "guaranteed no leaves" he says but will he give you one? No, never, not ever WTF he gets your hops up for nothing >:( . But yeah I get how you fell. Every time I walk past Sofie I go nuts because it's night and she only sells flowers at daytime and I can't adopt her because no one will sell land to the vampiric succubus queen of oblivion :dry: .

Okay, so I have The Art of Magicka which replaces the Psiijic robes, Dark Brotherhood robes and necromancer robes. I really want to change the robes back to vanilla but continue using the mod, so my question is how do I remove changes to vanilla items from a mod?

They do have something up there sleeves it's called Elder Scrolls online.

@imperistan I like your leveling system, it really lets you play the game however/whatever you want and is the first leveling system I have seen that allows for more then just killing.

-lowering the total number of armor pieces dose not change the number NPCs you can have on screen at a time by a large enough amount to be justifiable. -lowering the total number of armor pieces dose not allow the armor pieces to have more detail. In fact some of the highest detail armors have lost of pieces. -I don't see how making each individual armor piece more important justifies dumping down the armor system. -lowering the total number of armor pieces dose not make perk systems doable that's just bulls*** you could have each armor set have 50 pieces and still have a working perk system if you actually spent the time to make it and didn't just rip it from fallout. -With Skyrims dual enchanting system you can have 14 enchantments. Armor, Boots, Gauntlets, Helmet, Shield, ring and necklace. In Oblivion you have Cuirass, Greaves, Boots, Gauntlets, Helmet, Shield, 2 rings and a necklace all of witch can be enchanted with 1 or more enchantments. Meaning you can have 9,18,32 or 41 enchantments. In Morrowind you can have a maximum of eight effects that can be added to an item and seeing as you can have like 10 15 items on at a time you can have 120 enchantments. So no you do not have the same number of enchantments by any stretch of the mind. As for your "Mechanically, Skyrim does far more per item then Morrowind ever did." Skyrim was made 10 years after Morrowind, if Skyrim did not mechanically out do Morrowind by a landslide it would be downright pathetic. Skyrim should out do both Morrowind and Oblivion numerically and mechanically (again it's 10/4 years older and way more money was spent) but as it is Skyrim is barley (if at all) better in either way. If you included moding witch is biggest feature and selling point of Elder Scroll games Morrowind and Oblivion are mechanically and numerically just as good as Skyrim if not better.

@sajuukkhar9000 Clueless did you even look at the plot of Oblivion or Skyrim for that matter? The world IS ending in game (Skyrim) a daedra army was invading (Oblivion). What's more YOU'RE the one that was arguing that the actions of the player did make large changes in the game world not the other way around and to prove it I will quote you (read the part in bold). People do know, they jut dont care. Tell me, do you go "OMG YOUR THAT POLICE OFFIER GUY I HEARD ABOUT" every time you meet some random police officer you saw on TV, assuming you had seen one on tv? No, people treat you normally becuase that is how people act IRL. All I can really say is FALSE, on many levels. -Preventing the world from ending is significant -Killing the emperor and allowing for a change in regime is significant -Handing Skyrim over to the Empire, or the Rebels, is significant. The choices you do have are visually different, in all the Daedric quests that have choices, which is to say practically all but two, the different endings either spare someone, thus letting them live, or allows you to kill them for an object of great power. Letting them live gives you an alternate reward, including possibly letting them be a companion. I dont see how you can claim there is no closure, especially considering every story is wrapped up before the game is over. And -Having half the holds in the game have their guards/Jarls changed. -Having around 6 forts occupied with soldiers, when before they were occupied with bandits and the like. -Having remnants of factions like The Blood Horkers, or the Afflicted, attack you. -Having random Thieves attack rob cities you have taken over for the thieves guild. -Having every NPC you have ever helped ever constantly thanking you as you pass them by. -Having the ability to bribe guards, and tell those random thief NPCs that you are in the guild, and thus to ignore your crime/not rob you -Having random encounters with people like Sinding, should you spare him Amongst a large list of other things, does significant impact on the world around you. Frankly, the only way anyone can say what you do doesn't show up in the world, is if you close to your eyes to everything that happens in the game. furthermore, Oblivion's guilds were not decently paced, they were padded out with tons of misc quests that had nothing to do with the main guild story at all, so to say Skyrim;s guilds are rushed, when they are, in fact, not rushed, just plot focused, is a falsehood. I think this proves imperistan conclusion, this is completely pointless.

imperistan I think your wasting your time, sajuukkhar9000 can only say the same bad argument again and again or change the argument to something unrelated or worse yet he will just change the rules. I would like to clear up some of sajuukkhar9000's errors tho. Vanilla Oblivion has 13, Animals 8 Monsters, 14 Undead, Goblins, 10 Daedra, Mehrunes Dagon and a Daedric Siege Crawler in all that's 48 Creatures. Vanilla Skyrim has 16 Animals, 11 Monsters, 5 Undead, Falmer, 3 Daedra, 3Dwarven Automatons and Dragons (that are not listed as Creatures) in only that's only 40 Creatures. So vanilla Oblivion has more Creatures then vanilla Skyrim, if you add in the DLCs Oblivion would have 60 and Skyrim would have 56 so yes Oblivion has more Creatures then Skyrim DlCs or not. As far as human opponents go Oblivion and Skyrim are about the same. - Being able to be a moat or having set classes is nether bad nor good, everyone likes things different. - Non-linear stories are NOT IMPOSSIBLE to do in a open-world game like Skyrim, seeing as moders did it for Oblivion and I believe have done it for Skyrim to. - imperistan is right if a quest is started it's accepted (how the hell do start a quest without accepting to do it?), if you reject a quest it should NOT be started simple as that. This is not something imperistan made up it's a recognized fact no matter how much sajuukkhar9000 screams. - Quests ARE forced on you, even if you don't HAVE to do them they're still started and listed as being accepted. - The rules in an RPG only tell you what you can and can't do, not what can and can't be.

Duh, build your own home :whistling:

Ho, so your saying that as long as talking to someone is needed to start the quest even if the dialog isn't started by you it doesn't count as being started "just by walking past two NPC in conversation"? Even tho walking past them is what triggers the dialogue that starts the quest? Fine then. 1. Dawnguard is added to your journal if you walk past a guard and he says "Heard they're reforming the Dawnguard. Vampire hunters or something, in the old fort near Riften. Might consider joining up myself." 2. Surgery is added to your journal if you walk past a guard and he says "People say there's someone in Riften that can... change your face. Make you look completely different. Do you believe that?" I believe there's more but I have yet to do all the quests and don't fell like looking up every quest in the game to check. So yes quests CAN be started just by walking past an NPC thats talking.

@sajuukkhar9000 No I'm 100% right. To start take up arms all you need to do is come in rang of the fight with the giant and after the battle Aela will actively seek you out. Do you get the point? SHE COMES TO YOU and starts dialogue you do NOT GO TO HERE To start Innocence Lost all you need to do is walk past Idesa Sadri and Grimvar Cruel-Sea and over hear them and the quest is added to your journal even if you never talked to anyone about it. To start the forsworn conspiracy all you need to do is go to the market the murder happens and Eltrys will come up and give you a note starting the quest even if you never talk to the guards. So in the end there are in fact quests in Skyrim that are added to your journal just because you walked past two NPCs talking or walked into the wrong place and didn't run away. Also the programmers being lazy is not a good resin for quests and guild chains to be completely liner. What HeyYou meant when he said "I find it amusing that you think this "unrealistic", even though it has already been done for Oblivion......" was that in Oblivion you could actually get suspended or in the chase of the Arena, Fighters guild and Dark Brotherhood permanently kicked out. So yes you could in fact leave most of the guilds permanently at any time you really wanted. I'm wasting my time aren't I?

@sajuukkhar9000 It seems I am wasting my time with this as as you missed every point I was making. The quests I was talking about are the companion guild quest, Innocence Lost and The Forsworn Conspiracy. No, it makes perfect sense that you can destroy a guild once you join it. Look at real life some of the greatest organizations where destroyed from the inside ether by traitors or by people that joined them only to destroy them. In fact just look at the Dawnguard main quest it's a vampire that helps you destroy Harkon. Also in case you never know people join guilds/organizations and then quite them all the time in real life. That was not the point my point was that lots of people want main quest removers/delayers and they where able to add them to Oblivion in ways that did not clash with the lore or feel of the game therefor it is clearly something people want and is not all that hard to do. And you can call asking for more options (MQ delayers/alternatives) selfish and petty, but the fact is If players never asked for more and never wanted more we would still be playing tetris. Also Skyrim is a million dollar modern game that always boated "You don't even need to do the main quest". So it would be perfectly sense able for there to be MQ delayers/alternatives. But in the end I'm just wasting my time here because nothing in this world would change your mind and I'm not changing mine so this is pointless at best.

@sajuukkhar9000 WRONG! just walk into Markarth go to the market and a quest is forced on you, or just walk in the wrong street in Windhelm or .just walk past some people killing a giant in a field. Be that as it may the point is once you finish the first part of a quest chain the next part is forced onto you (90% of the time) also many many players start quest chains with no intention of finishing them. It's also not strange to want to be able to destroy the DB or TG after joining it, after all the best way to destroy an organization is from the inside right? You never moded Oblivion did you? There are mods that delay the main quest so you can in a way turn down the main quest in fact ive seen people asking for mods that remove the main quest and even a mod that lets you fail the main quest (it's only a WIP tho) so asking to turn down the main quest is not all that absurd or illogical. And last but not lest a quest must have more then one end or more then one way to finish it for it to be none liner, the choice to do it or not is completely irrelevant.

@sajuukkhar9000 Did you even read what you said before posting? Basically you just said. The quests in Skyrim are none linear because you can choose not to do them whereas books/ect are linear because you can choose not to read them. You can argue that you can still do other things in Skyrim but that's irrelevant because you are, and I quote and last I checked adventuring off into countless caves, ruins, and cities at your leisure has nothing to do with quests. This is probably a wast of time because you'll either just say the same thing again and just word it differently or start insulting me.

Like most people I use 3rd person most of the time and first person whine using bows.

@bjeet We do have robots that can walk/run on two feet like ASIMO and have had them for some time but thats the best they can do (They can't jump and stuff).

I choose to see how the Forsworn are now as being the result of Ulfric's actions. Just like the Falmer fell into savagery after the Dwemer betrayed them, the Forsworn have fallen after their dream of a free kingdom was broken by the heel of Ulfric. The fact is that your hero of national liberation quashed a national liberation. Yeah, you choose being the operative phrase here. Besides, who cares about some stinking Daedra worshippers? So being Daedra worshipers means there lives are valueless? That no one should care if a few million of them are killed? And to answer your question who cares? I think there orphaned and homeless children and families care but thats about it.

Morrowind had 2 major expansions: Tribunal and Bloodmoon. 8 Official Plug-ins: Adamantium Armor, Area Effect Arrows, Bitter Coast Sounds, Entertainers, Helm of Tohan, LeFemm Armor, Master Index and Siege at Firemoth. Not sure what in all they did as I have yet to play any of them. In all that's 10 DLCs or 2 expansion and 8 Official Plug-ins. Oblivion had 1 major expansion: Shivering Isles. 1 small expansion: Knights of the nine. 4 house DLCs: Thieves Den, Vile Lair, Wizard's Tower and Fighter's Stronghold. A Horse Armor Pack and Spell Tomes. 2 quest: Mehrunes' Razor and Orrery. In all that's 10 DLCs or 1 expansion and 9 Official Plug-ins. So if Hearthfire would be like the 4 house DLCs, Dawnguard would be knights of the nine and Dragonborn would be Shivering Isles. Then the best we can hope for is one or two quest/item packs if Skyrim has the same amount of DLC content as Oblivion. That's of course assuming that there's no Orrery or Spell Tomes equivalent and only leaving a Mehrunes' Razor and Horse Armor Pack equivalent. Of course if all this Redguard talk is true things could be completely different.

@RighthandofSithis The point I was making was the Nords are over confident and arrogant just like the French and would lose just like the French. Also "EDIT: The Akaviri took a naval route (because Vivec attacked their navies from the rear), they didn't have to cross the mountains." so could the Thalmor. Now I would love to argue this for the rest of time but seeing as we are talking about made up people fighting in a made up world, i don't see anyway one could prove the other wrong or them self right. I will however end with this statement "There is no land in the world that has not been conquered and there is no such think as a impregnable fortress. So long as the attackers have the time and money needed".

XIII Thou shalt not use a misleading name or description for thin mod. Seriously, the name should have something to do with the mod and the description should be a description not a propaganda pamphlet :mad: .

I have Serana why do I need other followers? I have nothing against follower mods as long as they don't have misleading names (ie names that make you think they are an armor mod or something useful). I cant count how many times I've found a mod and thought it was going to be something really cool for it to only be a follower mod or worse yet a save game. PS. Save games are NOT mods and should all be deleted :nuke: :devil: :nuke: .