Dukkah

I don't think the story is obvious if you have to look online to find it out. Do you mean the structure is predictable? Well yeah, but what story isn't, in the sense that it doesn't use a structure which hasn't been employed before? The point isn't to do something no one has done, but to do it in such a way that it's unique and entertaining. I think Skyrim did that pretty well in a game that focuses on dragons, which are by no means new enemies.

There were a few problems with mods, but nothing that couldn't be fixed. I haven't had too much time to play though, so I'll do some testing over the weekend.

Ah, you're right again - my mistake. It's been far too long since I've played either; my gaming time is devoted to Skyrim. :)

I must concede to most, if not all of your points, and am glad to see our views on the matter don't differ as much as it might appear. Nonetheless, I find myself with a deep sense of loss at this point in the development of TES series. Though I agree that the potential of this stats system is far greater than the more traditional one, I fear that's not the intention. Couldn't the same shift in the leveling system have been accomplished without abolishing governing stats? Though I agree that retraining must be streamlined to fit the scope and duration of a video game, does that mean we have to lose a definite sense of our strengths and weaknesses? I suppose these questions touch on my fear that when Beth abolished the class system, they did so in order to market Skyrim as 'an rpg without rpg', that is, an RPG without the elements that make it unappealing to broader segments of the gaming world, but nonetheless make it an RPG (complex stats, consequences for choosing a certain path, the inability to master everything). I realize that it's an often abused accusation, but the main reason I prefer the Oblivion system to Skyrim's is that the latter reeks of simplification. Though again, you are correct is saying this system has not been fleshed out, I wonder if such fleshing would align the game more toward a development of the notion of RPG, or the abandonment of that notion altogether. Now such a fundamental shift in the way characters level as you mentioned in your Heroes Quest example (a game I haven't had the pleasure of playing but am now curious about) would indeed be a great improvement. Whether older TES games or this latest one, it would seem we can't escape the meta nature of leveling. A shift toward a more role-based leveling system, as you alluded to, would require a more fundamental shift than the addition or subtraction of stats. Thanks for opening my eyes to that. Though thinking about it makes me feel worse about what we were given in Skyrim... EDIT: Dotting I's and crossing T's (read: grammar corrections).

I still can't understand claims like this. How is having arbitrary skill-sets forced on you (classes) and managing more arbitrary numbers (stats) more RP than freeform development? Role Playing is about developing a new existance through the medium, and yes, for decades this has been through classes, skills and stats. However, when you're working out, you don't suddenly realise "Hey, my strength went up to 30! Awesome". You also aren't limited through progression in life by your 'job'. An accountant doesn't spin his wheels if he decides to take up bio-chemesty. The new system in Skyrim is, in my mind, actually an improvement over the classic RPG system. It grands free form progression depending on your actions, rather than the old system which dictates what actions you have to take to progress. To add to this, the perks allow for specialization within larger skill-schools without the cumbersome management of extra skills. The new system, even in its current, unrefined state, offers way more RP potential than the old, classic D&D inspired one does. Perhaps I can shed some light on this issue, friend. While it's true that one isn't limited in progression by his job, it would take time for him or her to learn a completely different one, no? Months if the new one is related to his current, years if it is not. In this way, it makes no sense that someone who spends all his time practicing spells and enhancing his intelligence would suddenly be able to pick up a sword and expect to be as good as a trained warrior. The job system was restrictive, yes, but why would that not make sense? If my background before the story begins is that I was a mathematician, I don't expect to spend a week reading biology, then ace the MCAT. Yes, you're not free to change everything about yourself at the drop of a hat, but when has that ever been the case? Further, though one irl won't be able to track how strong he gets linearly through stats, at least he gets stronger at what he practices. In Skyrim, I can spend all of my time shooting arrows, but that will somehow make me more durable and better at picking locks? That's a deprivation of the RP experience if I've ever seen one. No, my sense of myself is not high enough to know that I'm a certain level of strength, but at least I know I'll be able to hit harder than someone weaker than me. In Skyrim, a mage can hit as hard as a warrior if he has enough perks in the necessary tree. Not to say I am against the perk system. No, what's wrong here is the stripping away of the many stats that informed you how your character was progressing (i.e, how far he'd gone in his role). It makes sense that if I jump around a lot, I should be more athletic. It makes sense that if I only use my fists, I should be better at fist fighting. It makes sense that if I spend all day lifting weights, I should be stronger than the pansy mage that lives next door. Are listed stats the best simulation of an RPG experience? No, of course not, but they're what's possible with the current tech. Problem with Skyrim is that we don't get rid of listed stats; we get a simplified stat system that takes more immersion away than it adds.

"I breathe now in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine." I think it's the way he says it that gets me. Makes Tiber Septim sound like a boss.

LMAO. I think it's pretty funny. Sounds like someone had a stick up his... Well, the forum would censor me anyway, so I might as well censor myself.

Invite it to a philosophical debate about just how intrinsic to its being shouting is. I have my doubts; shouting to the notion of dragon is not like the sum of its angles being 180 degrees is to the notion of triangle. :armscrossed:

I just watched a OMFG 2012 NOIZEZ video, and was not impressed. We live on a big planet; there are always strange things happening. There have been, there are, there will be. The only difference is that some people are paying closer attention thanks to media hype, then proceeding to perpetuate said hype. Also, those sounds don't sound like trumpets.

This isn't the proper place for this debate, so we should move to the debate forum if you'd like to continue. I will say, however, that the question isn't if it has to be in the game; the game centers around killing, such that to suddenly draw the line at killing kids is what is obtrusive. Don't just accept that there is a line. Ask why the line is there, and whether it is well reasoned. In this case, it is not, since there is no argument that justifies it. Don't believe me? Start the thread and we'll run through the gambit of arguments, as I've done before.

I can't remember a time when that place wasn't dominated by banhappy mods though. It's about 7 here. It's over guys. They've missed the deadline. :psyduck:

Very true. This is a good idea though. The other problem is that many dialogue options lead directly to or imply combat, with no middle ground (Thalmor anyone?), which makes it hard to escape in an RPG situation, short of cutting the conversation short when you see that sort of thing coming, which doesn't stack well in an RP situation either.

I like mathematics and philosophy. I also like that both are animated by the principles of logic, and thus share the same mother.

No.

In makes sense. There are taboos which are not to be harmed. Killing children in movies/games is on eof that. And that's not because you are a grown up and they want to tackle you, but for laws, where the rape and murdering children in movies is forbidden. And for real...think about it again, and verify if "killing children in a game" is appropiate... Any less appropriate than decapitating old ladies and then looting their bodies until they're almost naked? Or bestiality? Or theft? Perhaps you should verify that it isn't.