Fortunado3

Steam. Yeah, all in all, I don't mind Steam, and actually like it. Its pros and cons, along with its praise or criticism is very subjective, and usually an extremist viewpoint whether for or against. Steam is a hassle sometimes, but compared to big gaming (what I call the console industry), and where big gaming is headed, Steam looks like a pro gamergod send. There are legitimate beefs with Steam, but I find a lot of it is blown out of proportion. You know the type, the ones that come across as sob sister blow hard communists, thinking Steam is coming to take away your freedoms and make you a slave. That's M$, not Valve.

I think it would work more than once though. The sheep are only dumb in mass. Like a Hive mind, but reversed. Without the peer pressures of explosions and headshots, I think most gamers would still get into a non dumbed down ES. I mean, Daggerfall and Morrowind were more complex and had more stuff, but they weren't necessarily hard to understand, or complex in a confusing way. There were simply more options to play the game. Which is a good thing for all players. There's a reason why people that started the series with Oblivion are looking back on it with fond memories, while the even older vets see Oblivion like Skyrim, a compromise. But now, it doesn't even seem as bad as Skyrim, even though we gave Bethesda hell for Oblivion's lack of... everything. It makes the future look bleak. I mean, even though its watered, dumbed down shell of its former self, its still an RPG. People that didn't like RPGs, then bought Skyrim, but still don't like RPGs, are not going to be swayed by Skyrim's lack of depth, or extra hand holding. They still hate RPGs, for all of the same reason. All of the people that bought in on the hype, but still got 'an RPG', will not be buying the next ES, most likely. Other than the many problems of level scaling, was Oblivion too complex? Or too hard to understand for your average twitcher? No.

I agree with every single point you've made except for the very last one, in which you suggest that Bethesda "should" make games for the vets. Should, why? They're a game company, and their purpose is to make money. I'm sure the vast majority of Beth employees would like to please as many diehard fans as possible while making that money, but that desire to cater to long-time vets is trumped by the need to feed their families with a paycheck -- and also to be able to continue developing the next game, which means the current one has to sell. Just because we buy their games doesn't mean they somehow owe us a damn thing, let alone that they owe us to a degree that they "should" develop according to our standards and in doing so lose gobs of money. They don't owe us that. Should because we're the only ones that matter. The newer players will buy anything. Its like giving ice cream to somebody who has never had it. You can give them vanilla and call it chocolate. They will be none the wiser. Do that to someone who has had it and you will be criticized. If they will buy anything, since they don't know what should be there in the first place, then making the game for vets its common sense. Unfortunately Bethesda doesn't even know their own influence and power. They probably think that there's a chance that their games can fail. Bethesda could make a Disney game and its going to sell great. Unfortunately this seems to be making them greedier and lazier etc. The standards you speak of, we're the only ones that have them. The newer players have no standards, or preconceived notions about this game other than "I don't like RPGs" most likely. We're the reason there is an ES in the first place, why should we be thrown aside, like we have been? Especially since their new demographics will buy anything, where its as mindless as "Gears of War, or as complex as a Total War game. And I'll never understand the whole "feed their family" crap. These people will make the money regardless. These people weren't hurting back in the Daggerfall and Morrowind days, when they were making their best RPGs. Why would they be now, especially with all of the extra greed tactics the gaming industry has. Hell, they'll be sitting like King Croesus just from the DLC. They wouldn't have lost a dime if they had had Spell Creation, attributes, acrobatics, the cut spells, H2H, degradation, etc. They actually would have made even more money, since I know plenty of people that didn't pay for Skyrim because of all of the cutting.

What I'm saying is, make a game for the vets, stay for the newbs, since the casuals, unreceptive, blah, blah, will buy anything (as long as you market it like Skyrim, i.e. for the unreceptive and neophytes). Obviously we're the minority, but we're also the only ones that should matter. If Bethesda wanted to make a game for idiots, they should have, but they shouldn't ruin ES, or even Fallout to do so. And there definitely was laziness. Look no further than gamejam for proof. But yeah, I pretty much agree with you, as you seemingly agree with some of the points Ive made. Also, I used paragraphs, not 'walls of text'. Not sure how, or when Todd Howard turned into Michael Bay, but its pretty hard to grasp that this is the same Todd Howard that lead the Morrowind team.

...You rambled on about stuff that has nothing to do with what I was talking about, mixed with a bunch of fallacies that made it look like you totally lack common sense. Your first ES was obviously Skyrim. Know more about the series, and Bethesda. Skyrim was obviously compromised for the newbs, casuals, dabblers and the unreceptive, coupled with console and time limitations. Just because your too new to the series to realize it, doesn't mean the vets are too. Bethesda is a sell out shell of their former self, get over it. Not really, just more ill informed nonsense. We don't want more than whats been given before, we want the bare minimum that is required to make an ES game, not this watered down POS compromise. LOL at the whole "make your own game" fallacy.

Its actually less than Oblivion with better graphics. Its just better graphics, with most of the fundamental mechanics of the series missing. I can just imagine how linear and dumbed down the next Fallout, or ES will be.

Numbers do not matter whether for or against really. Sheep will buy anything. They'll buy a game as complex as Mythus Dangerous Journeys, and out sell Skyrim, if you market it right. Like I said previously. The PR was lowest common denominator, but the actual game didn't have to be.

Because of how dumbed down Skyrim is compared to its predecessors. Its a joke really. The pre release PR itself was hilarious. With every one thing they said they added, they announced how they cut three things, until we got Dark Messiah meets Grand Theft Auto, as opposed to an actual ES game.

A realist...we are becoming a small section in the demographic picture. I was really tempted to just let this go because I absolutely realize no amount of discussion of economics is going to change your opinion, but I've just got to ask. What are you talking about? Pander to the lowest common denominator? Lazy? Greed, absolutely. If by 'greed' you mean 'get paid and feed your family'. Do you think that everyone who works at Bethesda is knee deep in hookers and blow? All these insanely wealthy game developers, hanging around on their private islands and being escorted around in gold-plated limos? But lazy? Skyrim has probably invested more time and money just into the motion capture animations than was spent in total on Morrowind. More time, more money, more people were invested in Skyrim than any TES game prior. How is that lazy? That one boggles me. Like somehow all these people who went into game design because they love in instead of taking a higher paying job in some soulless IT department just don't care about their work? Admittedly I know a few people in the game design industry. Nobody at Bethesda, but still. Pandering.... not sure where 'lowest common denominator' comes in. The console market is over 80% of the business now. It wasn't at the time Morrowind or even Oblivion were being developed (around 2000 for Morrowind and 2003 for Oblivion) and thus the games were designed for PCs and ported for consoles. No question Skyrim was made for the console market - which is why it could be made in the first place. Skyrim sold more copies in the first two weeks than Oblivion did since 2006. Because of that TES VI is going to get made despite the rising cost of game development. They are selling their product to the largest group of people who will pay them the most money for it. Are you saying they should feel guilty and ashamed for that? That attitude is a great way to get your opinions and recommendations utterly written off and ignored. The reality is you want someone to go above and beyond what everyone else is paying them for (and happily so) and do something extra for you but all for the same price. The whole point of my post, from the start, is to say that if you want to do that you need to provide them an impetus to do so. Are you going to pay extra? I'm pretty sure 'I promise not to badmouth you on the forums anymore' isn't going to do it. Again. PC gamers are now the minority. We want special treatment for the same CPU (cost per unit) as console gamers. Right now we add value by making mods and generating word of mouth advertisement. Our best angle would be to become the 'high return' market segment. Longer loyalty, higher return per consumer (more likely to buy DLC, etc). That's where piracy comes in as a negative. Everyone who pirates a game on the PC just cut their value of the copy of the game you actually bought in half. Literally. There is an inherent resistance to investing in a market that has a lot of loss due to fraud. If you sold TVs all over the country but in Flushing, NY 1 in 10 of the TVs you ship there got stolen when everywhere else in the country it was closer to 1 in 1,000, how tempted would you be to stop selling in Flushing? You're still going to make 90% of your sales, but still. What if it was 50%? You'd have to make everyone else in the country pay a little extra to offset your losses in Flushing. That is why piracy hurts PC gamers. It drives business decisions away from our market. Or you can just believe that everyone else is just 'out to get you' and that businesses make their decisions based on some strange desire to do evil. Whatever floats your boat. Hope that works out for you, keep us updated on how it goes. I'm going to stay focused on actually getting what I want based on economics and the realities of business and industry. So many ill informed fallacies in your ramble, where to start? More like, what are you talking about, newb? First off, read next time. I'm talking about gamers, not console VS PC. The game was made for newbs, casuals, and the unreceptive. Which is the lowest common denominator (on any platform). Know more about Bethesda. Your post was nothing but fail. Skyrim is the most dumbed down ES since Arena. They made it for idiots and the pick up and play 'next best thing' crowd. It was made for graphics whores, and people that thought they were buying a Viking game with dragon head shots. Fact is, they could have kept all of the cut stuff, and not added all of the extra hand holding, and Skyrim would have sold the same. Its greed, laziness, and selling out. Hilarious how your whole rant missed the point and had nothing to do with what Ive been saying. The fact that Morrowind, Daggerfall and Oblivion had less people working on them, and less resources, but still totally owns Skyrim in everything but graphics pretty much shits on your whole diatribe. Morrowind and Oblivion were on consoles too, and neither were as dumbed down as Skyrim (though Oblivion was close). They can make an ES game on Wii, or Tiger handhelds, or an uber PC exclusive, still doesn't change the fact that they are getting dumbed down at an alarming rate. So yeah, you should have let this one go, since you obviously have absolutely no idea what your talking about. I always find tools like you hilarious, since you'd rather be junior amateur PR accountants for big gaming, than be pro gamer and tell it like it is. Or maybe you don't know how it is, because this is your first ES, yeah that's probably it. So hell yes they should be ashamed, they totally pissed on the faces of the one who brought 'em. It has nothing to do with Steam, and everything to do with this gen console limitations, and Beth's prerogative to dumb down the series so any ADD riddled twitch kiddie can pick up and play it. Any successor is going to sell more. The next ES can be more complex than Daggerfall and Morrowind combined, and it will still sell more than Skyrim. It can also be the most dumbed down ES ever and sell the most. Sheep are stupid and will buy anything whether they'll like it or not. Seriously, who wants to play a dumbed down ES that's a shell of its predecessors? Not the vets. This part is so stupid it gets its own reply, then you'll be written off and ignored. The reality is I want an ES game, not some linear POS dressed up as one. We've been paying the same, or more, for less since Oblivion. More like, if Bethesda wants to keep dumbing down the series, do we get a discount? As said before, the sheep will buy anything. If you advertise it, they will come. But its the vets that matter. We're the ones that know the difference between an ES game, and a joke money grab before the next gen hits. Obviously the whole point of your post from the start was to fail and come off as a complete neophyte. Perhaps harsh, but you earned it.

How many times are people going to post this lame crap?

Daggerfall had nudity, and English curse words are not prevalent on Nirn. Nwah, fetcher, swit, etc.

Not really. Morrowind and Oblivion wasn't this dumbed down, and both were on consoles. And these games aren't getting dumbed down because of piracy. Its because of laziness, greed, and wanting to pander to the lowest common denominator.

I think this may be a joke thread.

I think this may be a joke thread.

What cursing? Beheading is less offensive than saying damn? ...Your an idiot. Seems we have a previously banned user wandering the halls... Door's this way. User banned - TVD.