yatz

I do understand. I personally know 3 different engineers from Microsoft that quit because of the way things are going there. They laid off a significant portion of their QA team and are using their users to do all the QA form them for Windows 10 and the upcoming Server 2016, hidden under the guise of making the users think they are part of the process when they are just being used for cheap labor, basically (whether Microsoft is doing that intentionally or accidentally, I'll keep my comments to myself). Funny, they actually told one of my friends to not worry about whether the code fully worked - just implement the feature and they'll work it out after release. He then "gracefully retired". Not that it's just Microsoft either. So, yeah, I do feel your pain to some degree at least. By the way, if the "documentation" from Microsoft you're dealing with has to do with Windows 10 or Server 2016, don't trust it. Much of the documentation published as recent as May is already incorrect and superseded by the new upgrade system and v1511.2 onward, and they aren't doing much to get good info out there. I've spent hours researching to find the "correct" information and then made a link repository for my co-workers so they had valid info. All we can do is just slog through the muck as best we can :) Take care.

It is what it is. Obviously we are no help to you (or at least that's how your post is coming across). I deal with modding across multiple platforms in my personal gaming "life" and nothing is the same or "easy". Additionally, even at work, I open premier support tickets with Microsoft and major vendors all the time only to have them refunded because I figured out the answer and bug before they did (because even their own in-house documentation is poor these days). It's the state of affairs. I agree it's not a great state of affairs, but unless you'd like to make some documentation yourself for all the different games and how their modded... it is what it is. Sorry.

First and foremost, the full documentation for what is available will almost always be in the header of the XML file for something like this. NMM and MO have to understand how to interpret the XML, so they have to use something as a base API (in this case, an XML schema). For example, there used to be plugins that you would install for MO and NMM, allowing for the interpretation of the XML code, which is now generally just part of the latest versions of NMM and MO. So, where is that master reference? Find a newer FOMOD installer (from a well known author) and extract it. You will find a "fomod" subfolder with a ModuleConfig.xml file. Open that up in whatever text editor you want (or just view it in IE/Chrome) and look at the top line: <config xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="http://qconsulting.ca/fo3/ModConfig5.0.xsd"> If you then navigate to http://qconsulting.ca/fo3, you can open up the various XSD files and see the progression of the XML schema. @cdcooley, ModConfig5.0.xsd is the current master reference you are looking for. If you don't find an option defined in this document, then you can not do it using an XML FOMOD installer - you must use a C# installer or possibly Wyre Bash. So, I would recommend you start here for your "reference". You seem to be much like me in that you code most everything directly. However, I would still recommend you use a tool like Wenderer's FOMOD Creation Tool mentioned above. As of the last conversation I had with him, I believe he has finally incorporated about 99% of what's possible into the tool. So, you can use the tool, then compare against the XML to see what is going on behind the scenes. Great way to learn, even for us "hand coders". @TechAngel85, thank you for the work on the wiki that you're doing - looks nice. If I may make a suggestion, I would recommend adding a brief section on the history of the current FOMOD installer (and, yes, that is the correct term for the latest Beth games when talking about the XML installer). For example, noting FOMM (the precursor to the FOMOD installer), the old plugins for NMM and MO, the relationship of NCC to NMM and how it affected these types of installers, etc. Alt3rn1ty also has a good point surrounding Wyre Bash that you would want to mention. Please note, I am not suggesting you provide "instructions" for FOMOD C# or Wyre Bash installers - I just recommend mentioning them and how all these items relate. This way, when people come to your document from all the varied links and forum discussions, they know how all these terms relate and which terms & technologies have been superseded. I am currently testing and providing feedback on a couple of new FOMOD installer tools in development. I can't say more than that, but I think they will make some nice additions to things like Wenderer's tool. But, probably 3 to 6 months out before those get released (although I lost contact with one creator - so, hopefully they get released). EDIT: By the way, if you would like some initial information on FOMOD C# scripting, try here: http://miere.ru/posts/nmm-installer-scripting.

After searching through the forums and a general internet search, I've found only one other person so far that has had this issue (and that was a post on Reddit). As you start entering the sub-levels of the Mechanist's Lair, just past the "decontamination arches converted to laser traps" (http://i.imgur.com/5e7LNkV.png), take a right and open the 2nd M-SAT door (http://i.imgur.com/EEsjww1.png), you will come across a typical maroon metal double-door (http://i.imgur.com/vzKXmsL.png). I can walk up to the door and everywhere in the room. However, the moment I open the door, the game freezes (no crash/CTD, and yes, there is a difference for "that guy"). If I stand at a distance, I can order Ada to open the door (http://i.imgur.com/NGkiCNy.png) and I can see inside the room (http://i.imgur.com/4WUI9yC.png). However, once the door is open, it then freezes the moment I get anywhere even near the door (whereas before I could go right up to the door). If I console into no clipping mode, the game freezes anytime I get close to this area - I have not found a way to get around it enough to even get beyond this area without the freeze (i.e., just skip it somehow with TCL). The Papyrus log ALWAYS states the following between the point I open the door and when the game freezes: I've opened up the DLC in FO4Edit and the CK and couldn't find anything that helped me understand why these specific errors were occurring (something just isn't clicking) or if they are just benign and ignorable and the real error isn't captured. The only other instance of this issue I've found is this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/fo4/comments/4hkiwc/crash_when_entering_mechanists_lair. No one responded to the post, but the individual figured out the issue by disabling "hyperthreading" via the Fallout 4 Configuration Tool (they had apparently enabled it via the tool prior to this). I've never used the tool and I have never heard of "hyperthreading" in Fallout: multi-threading, yes - hyperthreading, no. However, I downloaded the Configuration Tool from the Nexus anyway and couldn't find a "hyperthreading" setting, so I'm assuming either I'm blind or that setting was replaced with the proper nomenclature or removed entirely in future releases of the tool. Assuming at this point that the individual was possibly just using the wrong terminology, I played around with the multi-threading settings, both from the INI and the console (e.g., tmta and tmtrdfl). No, I did not think this would actually help since most (if not all) multi-threading is disabled by default, but to ensure I checked everything, I played with various combinations of on and off, in game and via INI, just in case. No helpy helpy. So, now of course it's mod time. I have 182 mods, including 147 plugins, all managed via NMM. Just for reference: (1) I manage over 800 mods in Skyrim with no issues, (2) I have had no issues with this group of 182 mods for the entire game, and (3) I have completed the entire game, 2nd playthrough (approx 700 hours), without one freeze or CTD - no joke - NOT ONE. Until now. Next steps of course are to disable all the plugins, verify game file integrity, reset INI files, blah, blah. Did everything EXCEPT disabling ALL mods (basically, I didn't disable the texture only mods that have no plugins). Just too many texture mods and don't want to go down that route unless I have too. I did make sure I was on the latest version of all my mods and that applicable Automatron DLC patches/versions were installed where applicable (that can be a new main mod file, an option in the FOMOD installer, a separate patch download, etc. - but all confirmed set for the Automatron DLC as supposed to be for those mods that required it). None of this helped. Starting thinking about textures and meshes. However, if I can have Ada open the door and look inside, including down into the lower area, it would strike me as profoundly odd that a texture, mesh, lighting, shadow or related item could be the culprit because they should have caused the crash with Ada opening the door also in that case. Went back to a Pre-DLC save, rushed through just what was needed in the DLC to get back to this point (no consoling, just did the bare minimum in game as quickly as possible) and as soon as I got back to this door, same freeze. Lastly, yes, I am aware of the CTD issue where leaving the lair at the end, or fast traveling to County Crossing, and other similar things caused people to CTD. This is NOT that issue. HOWEVER, because I'm thorough, I installed the mod that patched the icon for that - no help. Removed all mods that affect any part of the UI, the map, etc. - no help. Deleted the entire contents of the Interface folder - no help. Didn't think any of this would help, because this issue is not that issue, but hey, at least I tested it, right? I'm at a complete loss. Any help would be appreciated. :sad:

As I mentioned very early on: I guess everyone missed that comment. I am constantly bouncing between testing others and my own mods and I just fix things and move on. I don't take official court records of every single thing I do, so I don't remember everything in enough detail to provide you a good enough example. Hence, why I said I would come back when I had my next example. Whether intended or not, this particular line of questioning is an absolute slap in the face to be honest. But, I'll roll with it... Leaving Skyrim out of the picture, I currently have between 180 and 240 active mods in FO4, with 134 plugins right now. I'm installing, removing, testing, creating, etc. every day pretty much. Knowing if someone's mod is bad is not rocket science. In fact, most people's mods have something wrong with them (my own included). It might be as simple as something being done less efficiently than it could be (just due to the person's knowledge level at the time) or a simple typo somewhere that isn't found out until you do one specific thing in the mod that 75% of people may not even do. You make mods, you learn from experience, improve upon them, etc. So, let's say I install someone's mod and it seems to be working fine, but I then run across a particular scenario. Instance naming doesn't work as stated on an author's page as I'm modifying an item at the workbench, so I know that's an issue with an INNR record, a keyword, etc., Or, I start modifying a weapon that someone has created, but one of the workbench modifications doesn't work right, so I know that's attached to something coded wrong in an OMOD or something referenced by or in the OMOD. Maybe someone has included texture changes in game and one of the textures doesn't work right. Could be a missing texture, could be an issue with the MSWP record, etc. Maybe something is supposed to glow but doesn't. I look at the BGSM files and NIFs and one particular one has a typo in it or they copied and pasted from vanilla and forgot to change a key string, so if you happen to get into one particular scenario in game, the glow map doesn't get applied onto the diffuse texture and you have no glow. Do I really need to go on even more to answer your question? Or is that enough? Because I feel like I'm getting attacked for no reason, simply because... well, crap, I don't even know why (makes no sense to me at all). I mean, I highly respect both of you and have for a long time, but seriously?. I stopped by just to express my general preference towards BA2 files, but that I'd seen some odd behavior and then stated I would try to remember to come back when I had a specific example. And I stated that FROM THE VERY BEGINNING! I know you guys probably want to keep bad information from propagating (and I understand and appreciate that), but just because a lot of bad information is out there, doesn't mean you start off assuming the worst, which is how I feel like you're treating me. I don't feel like I communicated ineffectively - rather I feel like (forgive me if I misinterpreted this) you both either skimmed what I wrote OR read more into my comment than I intended, and immediately started trying to poke as many holes in my comments as you could instead of simply waiting for me to come back with an example. Or, God forbid there's something that seems like it wouldn't be possible now, but 6 months from now, lo and behold, there's this one situation that turns out to cause issues because of X reason that no one recognized or thought of. But I digress... I need to get back to Reneer's interrogation... :) Basically, if I find an error, I fix it for my own game, then I'll post a bug or send the author a PM to let them know (usually the latter as it lets them decide what "errors" they want to make public or not, especially since many errors are just accidental). I don't keep track of all this stuff. I even had it happen with my own mod once as I mentioned, but I don't remember all the details. I was doing something with the Chem station and wasn't paying attention to a detail somewhere (I believe I had copied a vanilla record that I didn't edit properly). Had nothing to do with the Recipe - that much I remember. And it had nothing to do with the object created by the recipe. It was something else. But when I went in game, it fubar'ed the chem station menu. Interestingly, it was a packed mod. I went back to the loose files while troubleshooting, but found that my item in the Chem station menu simply didn't show up now, but the other mods using packed archives now showed up fine (so a problem in my packed archive negatively impacted, somehow, other's packed mod archives that went away simply by me switching to loose files before I even fixed my issue). I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THAT HAPPENED THAT WAY! I ONLY KNOW IT DID! I wasn't drinking. Wasn't doing drugs. Had plenty of sleep. Kids weren't even at home to distract me. I saw what I saw whether it make sense or doesn't. Maybe the fact that Beth split loose files into Main and Textures causes a unique scenario that we just don't understand yet. Maybe... oh good grief, never mind. I'm spending time on this when I could be playing the dang game and enjoying myself. I still highly respect you both and appreciate your tremendous contributions to this community. I've done nothing but endorse and compliment your mods enthusiastically, supporting you both as best I could for awhile now. Then, I come in and make a comment and rather than a simple and respectful comment like "haven't seen that, but maybe there's something we just haven't run across yet - would be interesting to see the example you mentioned when you come across another one", I get an ear full from both of you (is ear full even really an appropriate term in a text only discussion? :) Anyway, I've rambled enough. I'm sure I've given you both plenty more to pick apart and explain how wrong I am or how everything I said doesn't make any sense. Knock yourselves out if that's what floats your boat. As for me, I'm not going to be participating in this thread or the Mod Author's forum for awhile because it just isn't worth the headache - I have enough of those from medical problems. However, I do look forward to your upcoming mods. Looks like you both just released some updates. I'll probably try out Shor's Stone this weekend hopefully. Always did enjoy those small village updates you've done, Arthmoor... Take care guys.

All I can tell you is that it does. If it doesn't work, I change a record in someone's bad mod, and it works, then that's not really arguable against. That why I was asking about how error handling works when the engine reads packed archives vs. loose files. And I know it happens with the official tools as well because I've had it happen with one my own mods, records created from scratch in the CK, not even copying vanilla records. I disagree about the support nightmare for various reasons, but don't really feel like arguing about it. Thanks for the feedback. :)

I know I can actually change world map textures in game simply by uninstalling/installing mods in NMM, then re-displaying the Pipboy (without existing the game), so your DDS comment should be spot on. I would think it would be an MSWP record. Haven't dealt with the Pipboy, so I don't know where the entry point would be for triggering the material swap (I'm used to triggering them from OMODs, etc.), but it seems like it should be straight forward. I'm doing some modding this week and weekend, so if I have some time to poke around, i'll let you know if anything stands out.

For the record, I understood the original meaning and context :)

"That thing is awful..." and "might be the worse UI I've ever had the displeasure of using". My lady and gentle fellow, I have but one response: never has a greater FO4 truth been expressed. That crap (my apologies to the developer of it, but reality is reality) doesn't need to be overhauled. It needs to be completely scrapped and redone from scratch. I kid you not, I would PAY without hesitation for that mod (if done well, of course).

Thank you very much everyone, especially for the links. Once you started going back and forth, I remember dealing with this from the "using the mod" side in Skyrim and it started to come back to me. Now that I'm on the other side of the modding equation, obviously I have to pay more attention :) I think I'm going to have to experiment some more to understand it better in my particular case now that you have all successfully jogged my memory. So far, I've seen no negative affects either way I handle it. Haven't tested the uninstall yet - but need to if for no other reason than my own curiosity - I'm using the basic vanilla wall safe (drag drop into render window), so if I'm understanding what I'm seeing correctly, the form id is of course the same since I didn't create a new safe object before drag and drop (to ensure all the other dependencies worked as expected), so I would expect it to remain after the uninstall. I guess we'll find out :) Anyway, you guys are great and provided the exact info I was looking for. Thank you very much!

I haven't been creating mods for that long, so I'm not sure how valuable my input would be considered (though I've been a developer for decades). However, I've never had any issues with my BA2 archives. I HAVE run across issues when a packed mod is not setup properly. Haven't pinned it down yet to a particular record type, and it DOES affect certain other packed mods that follow the bad one in the load order (which only partially makes sense to me). But, when I run across it, I can open the problem mod, find an error and fix it, repack it, then that mod and all packed mods afterward that had a similar record all work fine. I can also leave the error, extract the mod into loose files, and everything works fine (except of course whatever is broken in game due to the obvious error). I can only guess that the engine just doesn't have strict error handling for one of the methods and so it gives the appearance to some people that packed mods are problematic. Kind of like how interpreted languages that use variant variable types allow you to get away with some things you normally can't in strictly formed compiled languages. Perhaps Arthmoor would have an idea HOW that can happen - I only know when it does, I can fix it as described. The next time I come across an example, I'll try to remember to come back and describe it. Also, just my personal perspective, but I always offer both packed and loose downloads. Most people download and use the archive, but it provides an option if someone wants the loose file version. You could argue that some people are downloading the loose version because they don't fully understand something and need to figure out the real issue, and I would have no objection. But at the end of the day, just like you sometimes need a quick raw script to get a quick task done at work, even if not formatted properly, sometimes people just want to get in the game and play. If me offering both as an option helps in that regard, then why not? :smile:

Nice offer Marcus, thanks! I'll definitely keep you in mind for any future mods that require back story. Don't have anything at the moment though.

Cool, thanks everyone. All new to me having used the Render Window for a mod for the first time, but glad it isn't something unexpected or out of the ordinary. Appreciate everyone's feedback and pointers very much!

I can't speak for the OP, but that wasn't what I was referring to BigAndFlabby. Although it is along the same lines. However kudos on #2. Haven't heard of that and taking a look now :)

When creating a new object in a cell, is it best to leave it's Record Flag at the default "Temporary" or should I change it to "Persistent"? This is my first go at adding objects and can't seem to find a consistent answer on this that is flipping on the light bulb in my brain. It is a safe, on a wall, which should remain there for the rest of the player's game as long as the mod remains installed. It should of course be removed if the mod is uninstalled. Also, if anyone can share some links (on or off the Nexus) that provides "official" or "majority accepted" notes on this, it would be most appreciated. I have had a difficult time finding things that I trust. I'm assuming I'm just not using good search terms or something. Thanks!