MacSuibhne

+1 There are so few voices of reason and apparent maturity on this forum, I felt compelled to quote your whole post. It bears repeating.

When you live in a greyscale world you never see the edge of the cliff until you've walked off of it. Every tyrant, every monster that ever lived believed that morality and right and wrong were a matters of opinion. In such a world, anything can be justified, no matter how heinous...and has been and will be, using the very same arguments that you use.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I do think there is a right and wrong. Read my post above--#66. There is enough Lore and History and things known that you really don't need to rely on NPC's and hearsay to say that things are "rotten in Denmark." So then it comes down to do you hold your nose or do you step up?

Only if you abandon all reason and logic.

To some this is a black and white issue. And yes, there are a lot of ambiguities and a lot of contradictory cues, esp. if you give weight to unwarranted hearsay and discount the Lore and the history. But those who tend to see the world in greyscale are, in my opinion, more likely to dismiss or minimize the importance or the impact of people dying at the hands of the Thalmor. Or the fact that the mindset (attitude/policy) that allows the Empire to look the other way when Thalmor execute people without trial is not significantly different than the mindset that informs the star chamber executions at the very beginning of the game--mortis omnia solvit. Time and again we see folks justifying those deaths "for the greater good." Nevermind that in effect, the Thalmor are already waging war...with attendant casualties...against a portion of the Empire, ie., Skyrim. While the Empire does nothing for the citizens who rightfully look to it for protection. This is pretty black and white in my book...no excuse, no rationale can confer legitimacy on a government that will not stand for its people. In that context, there really is no Empire...only a functionary for the Thalmor and the AD. In other words, the Thalmor are in charge, and for all intents and purposes, are the government of Skyrim...and of Cyrodiil. When the Thalmor say "jump," the Empire asks "how high?" Skyrim owes no allegiance to the Thalmor (despite Imperial claims to the contrary) nor to a government that is unwilling (as well as incapable) of protecting its citizens. In that sense, it is really the treatment (or mistreatment) of Hammerfell, and its abandonment by the Empire, that is at the root of Skyrim's aspirations to independence and the concomitant civil war. The Empire sowed the seeds of its own destruction...and of rebellion...with the WGC and now it is reaping the harvest. Unlike most of the Jarls and the High King...who swear allegiance to a foreign power...Ulfric, for all his faults, is a leader with a vision, not just another bureaucrat doing what he is told to do. In that sense, any vision is better than none. All roads lead to Rome--you can point the finger of blame at this one or that one but ultimately it all comes down to the Empire. Beyond that...and cutting through all the sophomoric obfuscation...logically, the Empire would need divine intervention to regain enough strength to confront the AD. The Thalmor presence in Skyrim violates Skyrim's sovereignty...it is essentially military rule...and, in a larger sense, critically undermines the ability of the Empire to re-group militarily. To the extent that the Thalmor have a similar or even greater presence in Cyrodill (not an unreasonable assumption), the Empire too is under the military rule of the Thalmor and cannot effectively do anything that would alert the AD to its putative re-emerging power. With the WGC, the Empire handcuffed itself and is effectively dragging all its people and provinces down with it. Those are the facts as I see them and when you add it up, it seems pretty black and white to me... I suppose, given the history of these threads someone will come along and quibble or re-interpret the history and the facts no matter how baldly stated. Or introduce elements that have no basis in anything but interpretation, opinion, and speculation. That said, "to treat your facts with imagination is one thing but to imagine your facts is another."

Who mentioned the Stormcloaks?

Thalmor HQ is located in Castle Dour...further underscoring the close affiliation between the Thalmor and the Empire.

+1 :thumbsup: What would really be nice is if people who wanted to contribute (and I realize "contribute" is often a stretch) spent as much time reading and thinking about the posts they are responding to as frantically rushing to post something contrary. Everybody wants respect and would prefer that they be taken seriously. But it is unreasonable to look for respect when it is so starkly obvious that the poster hasn't taken the time to read, or read for content, import, or understanding, in the first place. A simple suggestion: If you want your posts to be taken seriously you have to extend the same respect to others.

Struck a chord, did I? No one has said anything remotely like that. You're free to play Skyrim any way you want. I...and many others...have said that, repeatedly. Apparently some people just weren't listening. What has been said...by myself, again repeatedly...however, is that if you come on a public forum and make scurrilous and slanderous remarks that have no basis in Lore, fact, or reality you should expect to be challenged. Just as a desire for independence drives the Stormcloak Rebellion (it is named after Ulfric...he didn't name it himself), so too a search for fairness and objectivity informs my remarks (and those who share a similar perspective)--a simple concept commonly referred to as "presumption of innocence." Maybe you've heard of it? When these kind of threads get going it is always the Imperial apologists who point the finger first--Ulfric is a "scumbag", "Ulfric is a murderer", "Ulfric is a racist", "Ulfric is this", Ulfric is that". None of which can be empirically supported...which leaves only opinion, and emotion (sometimes verging on hysteria), and "guilt by association" to carry the day. But such arguments are simply not serious enough to count. And, at some level, I suspect everyone knows that.

Fundamentally, controlling who or what people worship is controlling what they think. It is "mind-control" and nothing short. And mind control is the essence of totalitarianism...it is oppression defined. Those who aid or abet that oppression...or even look the other way...are craven if not complicit. It bears repeating that the Code of Hammurabi--"symbolizing not only the emergence of justice in the minds of men, but also man’s rise above ignorance and barbarism toward the peaceful and just societies"--was written more than 3700 years ago. The point is that even in cruel and violent societies, people aspire to justice and seek redress wherever possible... And rightfully so.

With all due respect...and I don't post here much anymore just because of the sophomoric, if not jejune, nature of the postings that you mentioned. But I suspect that the reason this subject (the fundamental controversy at the heart of the matter) keeps coming back, is that people are genuinely moved and interested by the issues involved. If they cannot discuss them on a Skyrim forum, where can they discuss them? I agree with most of what you said, and if I had my druthers, the conversation would be elevated several notches and perhaps some guidelines as to what is acceptable in terms of posting behaviour--no ad hominum attacks, for instance, and, even more optimistically, what standards of evidence is credible, would be established. But Forums don't work that way...usually. As it stands...if you will forgive the observation...it's kind of like the ban on Talos, however.

Imperistan, I'm sorry, I have to disagree with your premise. The issue has been raised...I've raised it myself on numerous occasions. The problem is that it falls on deaf ears...just as the concept of "presumption of innocence" falls on deaf ears. Just as "guilt by association" or "trial by innuendo" or "gossip mongering" or even the idea of "credible evidence", cause more quibbling than comprehension. The whole idea of protecting the rights of the few is a foundational creed in any democratic system of government and one of the the most critical ideas in any fair and just society. The idea that the "needs of the many outweigh" the rights of the few is the governing principle of flocks of sheep, or herds of wildebeests or schools of fish--the world is full of predators and only by sacrificing the nameless and unimportant few can the majority survive.

Thanks...here I am level 42 and all this time I've just been taking the hit.

Sometimes when you enter a dungeon or a room in a dungeon, you'll see some lit-up markings on the floor. If you step on them or even get close to them they will activate and you'll take damage. What are they and is there any way to avoid or activate them such that you don't get "hit"?

Looking more deeply into this issue...it is ambiguous, we don't know for certain that Torygg was High King at the time of the Markarth incident. But putting together the pieces...what there are of them and as twisted and distorted as they are from being forced into places where they don't fit...I'd have to say the chances are against Torygg being involved. The Markarth Incident happened in 4E 176. Ulfric was arrested shortly thereafter, maybe the same year. It is 4E 201 when Torygg is thrown down. We are told that Torygg is a young man. What does that mean? I would guess not more than 25 or, stretching it, 30. I doubt that Torygg was High King at five. Again, the whole thing is a picture puzzle. I've picked up this piece several times and tried to fit it into the larger picture--it doesn't fit where I thought it, did nor where I would like it to. But I'm not going to force it. It doesn't diminish the fact that the Empire engineered the Markarth Incident and then betrayed Ulfric. Hoo Hum. Another day...another capitulation, another betrayal.

I didn't say "Dunmer" I said "dark elf"...and maybe I'm wrong about the "elf" part--they all look alike to me. :tongue: But here again...it's one small piece of the puzzle--quibbling over table scraps. And despite that, the point is/was/and remains that for every Bodryn in the game, there's a Sylvian...all you have to do is the unthinkable!!--be opened minded enough to listen. Or to quote BrettM because it bears repeating... And... What is it in a person's character that they prefer to listen to the venting of someone's spleen, yet find equanimity uninteresting?

It's telling that you consider the presumption of innocence to be a lofty approach. But then many Imperial apologists seem to share this view. Along with the idea that people being led off to torture and execution is an acceptable price to pay to mollify the Thalmor and bolster a static, disingenuous, timid, and placatory Empire. The real problem is very like the fable of the three blind men and the elephant--they're blind, so all they can comprehend is what they "feel." They can't see the larger picture. It is no surprise that you see a dearth of objective evidence. But that's only because you're looking or listening to isolated NPC's and hearsay and rejecting those POVs that don't support what you've already decided. The dark elf on the way to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks because "Ulfric has the right of it" is just as believable as anything Brunwuff or Sybill Stentor has to say. Maybe moreso because he's not identifiably attached to any particular faction. To truly understand...to find an objective perspective...you cannot dismiss the WGC and the way that the Empire caved to the AD. You cannot dismiss the 30 years that have gone by with no significant movement on the part of the Empire to fulfill it assurances of rebuilding and re-arming. Or that, in fact, by allowing Thalmor patrols in Skyrim and Cyrodiil, the Empire has given up a critical military advantage. You cannot wave away the the fact that the Empire aids and abets Thalmor activity in Skyrim, anymore than you can wave away the political relationships between a vassal High king and the Emperor and the equally submissive relationship of the Emperor to the AD. You cannot set aside the broken promises, and the betrayal and arrest of Ulfric by the Empire; nor the fact that Torygg knew and "acquiesced" to it. You cannot disregard the Nordic Tradition that allows a jarl to challenge the High King nor Sybyll Stentor's (since she is a "credible" source in your world) affirmation that Ulfric had the right. Nor the fact that to a Nord, the Thuum is a legitimate skill to be used in battle. You cannot brush aside the fact that the Dunmer were given...no strings attached...the Grey Quarter; nor the fact that this was one hundred fifty years ago (long before Ulfric was born); nor the fact that they came as penniless refugees who were, in fact, slavers. You cannot diminish the fact that the Dunmer are racially "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Nor the implication that living in the Grey Quarter might very well be a choice that they willingly make--it gives them something to complain about, if nothing else. You cannot sweep aside the fact that nowhere in the game does Ulfric or Galmor or anyone outside the rank and file of Stormcloak chain of command make any statements that are racially motivated nor does Ulfric issue or support any laws, decrees, edicts that are objectively racial in nature nor is there any evidence that he actively supports any such. You cannot dismiss the fact that, the Empire cannot even protect its citizens...or perhaps, it's just that it will not...from the depredations of a foreign power. You cannot pooh-pooh Ulfric's and/or the Stormcloak desire for Independence from an exploitative and stagnate Empire that has no (or no longer has) legitimate claim to suzerainty over Skyrim. All these things (and more) are just pieces of the puzzle; parts of the bigger picture. They all fit together. In fact, by themselves they mean nothing...nothing. If you pick up one piece you cannot know what its importance is. You cannot see how it fits into the larger scheme of things. The problem comes when you try to put the pieces together and, not finding a proper fit, you either force a fit--through speculation and wishful thinking--or you go back to a previous piece hoping that maybe this time it will fit. That's the definition of irrationality, if not insanity--doing/saying the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. And I suspect, for those too lazy to work their way through the puzzle, the pieces need never fit.

You can blame the developers, I guess. But you're the one that's missing the point. Personally, I don't expect anything to change regardless of the outcome of the civil war...esp. not in the short term. But then I'm not laying spurious charges at the feet of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks, either--it's a perspective that has as its foundational principle, the presumption of innocence and an objectivity that relying on hearsay and gossip abrogates. Bottom line is that I am sure that expecting Brunwuff to change things is unrealistic...we agree on that. But if it's reasonable to expect Ulfric to do something about a problem that predates him by 100 years and is ultimately the responsibility of the Empire (or what's it for?), then it is not unreasonable to expect Brunwuff to do something different...and considering that Brunwuff himself (as well as these "lazy' devs) makes it such a big issue of it, it's not unreasonable to expect some immediacy.

But you're OK with street gossip and hearsay and even timelines plucked out of thin air? Everything has to be weighed against verifiability...proof, or at least credible sources that can be substantiated. You assert in another post that someone is "having them (non-Nords) publicly harassed". Who? Who is having them publicly harassed?! More speculation? More wishful thinking? Who? You are making accusations...it is up to you to prove them or drop them. If I choose to defend against accusations, all I have to do is shoot holes in the slander. So the issue of some sort of reciprocal guilt by association is just silly. I'm not projecting or suggesting guilt...that's your tactic. You can play this game any way you like...conjure all kinds of will-o'-the-wisp scenarios that are unsupported by anything except fish-wife gossip mongering...but if you bring it to a public forum you need to be playing the same game as all the rest of us. If only a half dozen Dunmer have had the incentive to escape (as far as I know no one is keeping them there) the Grey Quarter--given to them virtually free of charge when they first came to Skyrim a hundred and fifty years ago, and in all that time none of them have managed to buy, steal or manufacture a paint brush or a broom--something is going on there that facile slander of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks cannot explain. Parenthetically, I don't bemoan emotions. Everyone has them. But there is a time and place. I challenge using emotionally based accusations to support any position that requires logic and reason. Anytime someone starts slinging slurs (like scumbag, racist,etc.) around like some three-year old who has just learned a new potty word...senselessly, incessantly, chanting it in the face of anyone and everyone...I immediately step back and ask for proof. I get suspicious that there is a hidden agenda. So far, all I have gotten in response is more emotionally charged vitriol. The fact is that Bethesda made it remarkably easy for emotional people to fixate on some supposed racism. All you have to do is listen to a few people in the Grey Quarter...and ignore everyone else who is saying something diametrically opposite...and you have ammunition to support your dismay. Nevermind that it's all hearsay. Nevermind that it's all circumstantial. Nevermind that the larger picture defies such simple-minded conclusions. But, right there--the fact that it is so easy, ought to give any objective person pause...at the very least.

"huh!?" This is what happens when you rely on hearsay and speculation...it all merges into one big balloon of fantasy. From the Lore: The Death of Torygg The Thalmor would not allow the Empire to keep this pledge, and eventually, the young High King of Skyrim, Torygg, acquiesced to the Imperial demand to eliminate Talos worship. Jarl Igmund stressed that the peace with the Thalmor was more important than the arrangement with Ulfric and the Nord militia. Ulfric was arrested, and eventually brought before the High King in Solitude. Most of the Lore on UESP is derived from the Imperial Library. Often references are given to the books/sources from which they are derived. And while many books are obviously biased and even wildly inaccurate...such as The Bear of Markarth...they are, as a whole a better source of verifiable information than hearsay, gossip, innuendo, biased accounts, and timelines drawn out of thin air.

As I've mentioned, I've not taken a side but from what I've been told, if Ulfric wins, the Thalmor Embassy is empty. Why would it need attacking? It's a building. Is that not true? . I don't see how that follows. What has the physical location of the Hold Capital got to do with it? Would you prefer Kynegrove? or Shor's Stone? More importantly what logic is there to move the capitols? The fact is that we come into the game with the Empire mired in indecision, timidity and fear...doing nothing of importance about anything without Thalmor approval. Again, nothing has been done about the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter for the last 150 years. Maybe the problem is intractable, maybe it's not the problem...to the people of Skyrim...that some modern sensibilities desperately want it to be. We really don't know. But the point is that, given the time frames involved, none of that can be laid at Ulfric's feet. Or if you insist, then it may also be laid at Brunwuff's feet. At the Empire's feet. It really comes down to expectations...I believe that it is unreasonable to expect Ulfric to address the Grey Quarter issue while he is in the middle of a fight for his life and for the vision he holds for all of Skyrim. More to the point, I suspect that it is fundamentally misguided to expect "racism" to be an issue...or even understood esp. in contemporary terms...in a feudal society such as Skyrim. Now there are people here who, despite historical analogues, despite a paucity of hard evidence, despite reason and logic, disagree with me. And that's fine. But if they expect Ulfric to address the 150 year old problem with the Dunmer (even though a case can be made that it is ultimately the Empire's responsibility), then logic and fairness compels that Brunwuff be expected to address the issue post haste. Anything else is hypocrisy.

Thank you....

No need to worry, I'm not angry. I just want to see some evidence, besides the innuendo on the street, for that assertion. I don't think there is any. By the same token you can't use game limitation to project what Brunwuff may do. Especially when we can see with our own eyes and verify that he does nothing in the aftermath of the Civil War. It's like saying that the Empire is just biding its time and re-grouping...for the last thirty years and how many after that? If it's not happening, hasn't happened, given a reasonable amount of time, the chances are that it's not going to happen. If we come back to Skyrim 30 years from now, the chances are good (given what we do know) that Brunwuff won't have done a dern thing for the Dunmer. The Dunmer have had 150 years. Ulfric maybe 30. It's a problem that hasn't yielded to any Jarl in the past. It's a problem that the High King and the Empire have not seen fit to address. Maybe it's a problem that can't be solved easily...or in the middle of a Civil War.

Yes, I can do that and it appears that at least one other of them still has her head...at least the body does. Then what?

I don't understand. I am the head of the companions, as well. I killed the witches at Glenmorill coven and cured Kodlak. But I've not gotten a significant quest from the Companions since. I don't have any witches heads in my inventory. I don't remember any reason to have collected more than one of them....? I don't remember the Totem of Hircine Quest, when does that happen? (I did Ill met by Moonlight.