Casputin

In response to post #46355360. #46355735, #46357775, #46358530, #46359735, #46362070, #46363695, #46368255, #46371045, #46381315, #46381750, #46382340, #46383075, #46385150, #46385445, #46400635, #46400955, #46423275, #46423530, #46424150, #46428470, #46428730, #46430820, #46445675, #46486685, #46506375, #46506475, #46591830, #46593475, #46607870, #46613420 are all replies on the same post. I have a good friend who's Finnish, when we first met I was very curious about Finland and one of the first things she told me is Finns are quite cold (no pun intended) people. Saying "please" or "thank you" is not the norm, they see such things as needless and silly, they also dislike casually chatting with strangers. I don't know Elianora so I have no idea if she's Finnish or just rude, I'm just talking about what I've been told about Finnish people. She does make great work though and deserves respect like any other human being.

You just hit what I've been trying to say this whole time. People keep taking Bethesda to task because it hasn't been made clear that this is all stuff that's coming down from Zenimax. These are the same people who preemptively sued Notch for trying to trademark the word "Scrolls". Coming soon: Zenimax try to claim the word "game" is their IP.

Tartar, I don't think you can rely so much on history to provide an answer. Yes, it's good practice to learn from the mistakes of the past and to find precedent for modern events but the future is uncertain, what has passed can only tell you so much. Things have changed a lot since the 80s (I was around for most of them.) I try to live in the present and stay as aware as I can of what's happening around me. I see everything being monetised and everyone believing they are a beautiful and unique snowflake who has a right to whatever they want, never mind that those rights are absolutely bound to clash with the "rights" of others. Console users do not have a right to mods, just because Bethesda has put the framework in place for them to be available. PC users do not have the right to them either and I've seen plenty of shitty comments on peoples' pages from users who demand they get what they want immediately. The way to deal with this attitude cannot be to take steps to cater to them or they have no incentive to moderate their behaviour. If you take torrenting as an example, musicians and their labels were losing a lot of money to piracy and that hit musicians worse than the labels as the money the artists recieved from sales was already an unfairly small cut. The evolution of the situation has lead to streaming services like Spotify which pay the artists almost nothing but are a good enough compromise for the record labels. The creator, the originator of the valued item, is disrespected and the creative work is devalued but the company get what they want. The second modders start selling their work, they are no longer paid in respect and gratitude, their work is no longer a work of love but of... just work, like any other, work for money. That will undoubtedly have an impact on the attitude of people towards modders and modders towards each other. You make it sound like it's inevitable when it's anything but. If you resign yourself too early to an outcome you ultimately don't want, you do yourself a disservice. "Do not go gentle into that good night, Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

I like what you're saying and I agree that we're definitely at a point where things won't be as they were before, things are going to have to change and it's a matter of balancing which elements are more important to preserve as best we can. That said, keeping modding free is perhaps the one thing I would value above all else, it's not just that I'm in love with the idea of modding existing as a non-commercial enterprise based on respect, it's that I think that idea is at the very heart of the modding community and removing that element could divide the community in a way it never recovers from. Yes, one reason I'm avoiding DDP's thread is the toxic nature of some statements but being perfectly honest, part of it is that I don't like arguements and I don't want to end up on the wrong end of vitriolic comments (which would very possibly never happen, it's just an anxiety.) I'm not trying to tell people what to think, I just wanted this thread to be free of angry comments and any putting down of other people who want to speak their mind. That comes from being someone shy who can't stand quiet people always having their voice drowned out by loud people and - at worst - bullies. I'm not saying that's what's happening in other threads, again, it's just an anxiety.

I can't realistically see them shutting down Bethnet because it would cost them in the long run and they'd lose face. Sometimes I think half the reason they're so slow to react is because they want to avoid admitting there's a problem unless they absolutely have to. A single button to flag a mod as unauthorised is definitely a winner and likely wouldn't take them too much effort to implement. I'd love to see them vetting their mods before they're posted but that would involve more manpower on their end, something Beth seems reluctant to do but it may be their only realistic option in the end. Flagging stolen mods would require more manpower anyway, to react to claims. Paid mods... I know sometimes you can't afford to be an idealist but I really don't want people to have to pay for my content, or not have it at all. I know what it's like to be short of cash (I'm pretty goddamn poor) and times are hard for a lot of people at the moment. If I can give them something they like which I've enjoyed making and feel pride in and it's free and puts a smile on their face, that's pretty special. i don't want a few theives to ruin that for everyone, that would be an awful outcome. I should point out that I'm not posting on DDP's thread because the tone isn't all that constructive, I am reading through the posts as they come along though. I don't agree with malicious code being any kind of solution but a simple script to disable unauthorised ports of mods could be a decent step to take, as has been pointed out a half-baked port of a PC mod could cause its own problems anyway.

I don't think the law and legal action needs to come into it, that's a bit of a nuclear option (no pun intended) and I can't see it ever having a happy ending for anyone involved. It's an extreme, skipping every less-drastic course of action which could be taken. For now, dialogue with Bethesda / Zenimax is what's needed. Yes, they are a company and profit is their bottom line but I don't think they'll point-blank refuse to enter discussions with the community, they want mods as part of the appeal of Fallout 4 and if modders pull back from their game then they will lose face and potentially profits as a result. I know emotions are running high but please try to keep this thread civilised & constructive, otherwise how is anything positive supposed to come from the discussion? Thank you to those of you who've put ideas forward and kept it civil. Using E3 as a platform to make a statement isn't a bad idea in one sense. No, speaking to Bethesda won't be possible but keeping it light but visible you could whip yourself up a t-shirt saying what you want to say. Just keep it clean or you might get thrown out. Just an idea. I think organising anything more grand would be near-impossible at this stage, besides people won't want to trade in their E3 experience to protest instead. AND last but not least, the idea of mods implementing a type of DRM has already been passed around. It might turn out to be the tidiest solution but it'd be a shame to have to take that step.

Which is why we're relying on Bethesda to do the right thing and need to communicate with them, rather than locking horns with them. If we had an "official" voice to represent our concerns, we could maybe make Bethnet and console mods work for everyone. I honestly don't believe they hold us in any contempt, contrary to a lot of what's being said.

I know this is the internet but can we try to keep this a constructive discussion? That's the whole reason this is here, to try and discuss the issue together under a common cause and see what we all agree on.

Maybe we don't have a right to not have our work stolen but it's a courtesy that Nexus and other modders/ users have afforded to mod authors for a long time, it's become part of the community's self-governance. Yes, Beth allow us to mod when legally it could be seen as a breach of IP law but it's also worked in their favour as we've extended the life of their games and served as a (fairly) unique selling point for Fallout & Elder Scrolls games. It's a symbiotic relationship, which is why it's worked until now. That symbiotic relationship needs to extend to protecting our work because although we use their assets and insert our content into their game, it's still us who put very real time and effort into what we do. We cannot defend our work on IP / copyright grounds because we're modding so we're relying on Beth to step in on our behalf. I think that's where a lot of this frustration and anger is coming from. EDIT: Thinking about it, it makes me really appreciate how Nexus treats modders. I was in no way paid by Nexus to say that ;)

Thanks Trykz. It's important to bear in mind that Beth don't have experience vetting and curating mods, and while I doubt they went into their Bethnet experiment with their eyes shut tight there are probably plenty of idiosyncrasies in the modding community that they need to learn about. I feel a lot of pride in the consideration that PC modders and mod users have for each other (most of the time,) and while it's a high standard to hold console users to when they're new to it all, it's pretty clear that they have a lot to learn and need encouragement to learn it.

The tone of the post is maybe a bit more militant than I was going for. I just think it's important that we have a unified voice with which to address the issues and leave Beth in no doubt about the importance of them, it's not about confrontation. As you said, union not angry mob. That's part of the reason I didn't just start the petition myself, I think there needs to be a discussion about what exactly would be -positive- steps Bethesda / Zenimax could take, before we take our request to them. A dedicated theft reporting system would be a good start, I'd love to hear more ideas. :tongue:

So it's obvious a lot of people have had their work stolen and a lot of authors have taken down their work both on Nexus and Bethnet. Complaints have been filed and we wait to see what action, if any, Beth / Zenimax will take. There's only so much we can do to be proactive but I think getting organised would help give the modding community a stronger voice that Bethesda would have to listen to. I'm not saying it would change the world, it might not change anything at all but it would be a positive step modders can take. The best start would be a petition, making clear what we want to change. We need to discuss what needs to be done and then get together to put our names behind it. I'd rather not be the one to create it, I'm an obscure modder with only 2 non-Fallout 4 mods to my name so I'd like to see a prominent modder effected by the theft come forward to put their name to the petition and get the ball rolling. It's not a lot, I know, but it's something we can do to take a positive step forward. As it stands, Bethesda have the upper hand because we're not organised while they are, this could be a good step to rebalance that to a degree. Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think.

Thanks for posting this, was exactly what I was looking for :)

Hey all, this is my first post so please be kind. I'm working with custom watertypes and want to set the rads/second for each of them but can't find a setting anywhere in Geck or FNVEdit for that. There's an actor effect which alters rads and healing when you drink it but this doesnt effect rads taken from walking / swimming in the water. I really appreciate any help you can offer, it's driving me nuts!