HighkingUlfricStormcloak

I like Leila because she tries to help Riften, Maven, to me, seems more concerned with her own political gain, she is seen at Elenwens party and is just a bad person, although ambitious and powerful. Thongvor Silver Blood, although he is somewhat extreme, he is a good Jarl, far better than Igmund. Although I am sure all of us agree that slavery is not good, Im glad to see that he will be, undoubtedly dealing with the Forsworn. The same can be said for the Silver-Bloods being in charge of Markarth, they own the Guards, and half the city. But they are not doing it for political immunity and gain. Well, Thongvor isnt anyway, his brother Im not so sure about. Thongvor is a good Jarl and a good man. Jarl Korir, I like his mind set of trying to help Winterhold, but I wish he would except the college and get over blaming them when the collapse wasnt their fault. When I first talked to Tsun he said "Well met, mage of Skyrim. The Nords may have forgotten their forefathers' respect for the Clever Craft, but your comrades throng this hall. Here in Shor's house we honor it still." And that made me realize that the college is one of Skyrims best attributes.

Hey guys. Im have some free time and thought I would pop in and say hi. RightHandofSithis - I was wondering where you went old friend, good to hear from you again. This is a quote from Sun Tzu - "Now when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted, and your treasure spent. Other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue." - Art of War Now to analyze this in comparison of the empire - Weapons dulled - military force weakened - Imperial legions depleted Ardor Dampened - Energy depleted - Losing the will to fight Strength Exhausted - Military force stretched thin - Keeping the peace in Cyrodiil Your Treasure Spent - Imperial coffers emptied to pay soldiers and buy off the Jarls of Skyrim and pay tribute to the Aldmeri Dominion Other Chieftains - Ulfric and the Jarls backing him Then no man, however wise, May be able to etc. etc. - The emperor and Tullius This may or may not be relevant to the current topic undergoing the critique of my fellows but Its a point I wanted to make nonetheless.

Honestly I think Ulfric deeply regrets that he broke during his imprisonment, I dont think they ever told him that the city fell before he broke. I think he believes he betrayed the Empire, in that case. with a Stormcloak victory you have the remains of the Stormcloak army with an Imperial Victory you have the Nords loyal to the Emperor and the Legions of High Rock and Cyrodiil plus the Dunmer of Solstheim and Morrowind. if the Dragonborn didn't show up in Skyrim then the Imperials would probably win unless the Thalmor intervene idirectly to prevent Imperial success (as they apparently were ready to do at Helgen when it looked like Ulfric was to be executed) @Sithis from the Thalmor dossiers it looks like they set everything up so that Ulfric would give them the excuse they needed to operate freely in Skyrim. the exact details are unknown. it also looks like Ulfric became uncooperative after they demanded that the Empire arrest him for Talos worship. Also, you dont have the Dunmer from Solstheim or Morrowind, House Redoran Runs both and they hate the Empire. They abandoned Morrowind twice and House Redoran barely saved the Dunmer people, twice! If High Rock had a real fighting force then why are their cities falling to corsairs? The Empire is who allowed the AD to operate freely in Skyrim, not Ulfric, he opposes the WGC. He's not using Talos worship, he actually worships Talos, this is said by the NPC in the Temple of Talos in Windhelm. Now sadly I must retire from the Forums. I cannot take the time to do this anymore. I just found out Im going to be a father. I want to thank you all for debating with me on this. It was fun while it lasted for me. I had a good run and now I cant take the time to think about this as in depth as I have been. So to all my fellow Stormcloaks, I bid you all good luck and know that you can continue the fight without me there to back you up, but feel as though Im leaving you for the wolves. In the future I may be able to "Rejoin" but as of right now, I feel I dont have the time mentally. For Kayyyleb. - Funny, you said that you feel attached to the Imperials because they fit you. I feel that way about the Stormcloaks, Im Swedish and Norwegian, my parents raised me as a pagan (they never converted to Christianity) and when Morrowind came out I fell in love with the Nords. Ever since then I have played as a Nord. I just love when people get truly passionate about things. The Stormcloaks won me to their side, each soldier, not Ulfric or Galmar, they, to me, were just bonuses. Anyway, good luck to all of you. I might return some day to reignite the flames of this Forum, if it has died in my absence. But I feel that I never really held the torch. Go with the Gods.

Sure, I can understand the Stormcloaks are biting at the bit to get into a fight. But why does Ulfric send them after his fellow neutral Nords instead of attacking the Legion? He took the unnecessarily bloody route when he could've saved many lives. It seems there's either contradiction in his character development or an oversight in the quest design because you're right that he seems reluctant or unwilling to attack at times then goes and makes a seemingly rash decision like attacking Whiterun. Perhaps Galmar can be blamed for the deaths at Whiterun because Ulfric simply gave into his pleas for warmongering. Seems like Stormcloak supporters unanimously like Galmar which is hard for me to grasp because I absolutely hate the guy. He comes across as a reckless, warmongering barbarian to me. Ulfric's personal attack dog more or less. While the reasons you dislike Galmar make sense, I think its funny how I like him for those reasons. I see him as a warrior, not a politician. He takes action when he needs to and even Rikke says "The Stone-Fists no fool, he's found the crown." But I focus on the "He's no fool" part. A lot of his dialogue is really cool, as you can see in my sig. When Balgruuf refuses Ulfric's axe, he asks Tullius for legionnaires to garrison in the city, so Ulfric is fighting the Legion. Like Tullius says - "If he's planning an attack on Whiterun, we need to be there to stop him." So there's a lot more thought put into the attack and defense of Whiterun rather than this seemingly rash decision to just storm the walls. Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer." Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around." Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun." Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?" Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us." Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that." Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?" Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message." Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet." Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?" Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?" Ulfric: "Soon." Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg." Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies." Galmar: "We're ready when you are." Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..." Galmar: "The people are behind you." Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing." This is said as if you were not listening, they are in the "War" room and are discussing this openly. Once you return to Ulfric after acquiring the Jagged Crown, he will remark: "Damn him - the old bear was right! Did you run into any trouble?" If you notify him that the Imperials were there beforehand, he will say: "Damn it. What were they doing there? Imperial spies are everywhere. Never forget that... I trust you gave them a thrashing? Now then...I'm glad you're here. I have a message I need delivered to the Jarl of Whiterun. Deliver this axe to Balgruuf the Greater." Asking him about the axe, he will continue: "Yes. An axe. How long have you been in Skyrim? Give the man my axe. If he keeps it, I will bide my time. If he returns it to you, it means war." Also asking him if you should say anything when giving the axe, he will tell you: "Men who understand each other often have no need for words. There are but a few simple truths behind one warrior giving another his axe. Balgruuf will know my meaning." This will initiate the quest, and you are now directed to deliver the axe to Balgruuf in Dragonsreach. Upon Returning with the axe. Ulfric: "You were right Galmar." Galmar: "Again?" Ulfric: "I'm in no mood to joke." Galmar: "Give the word, my lord, and Whiterun is yours." Ulfric: "Whiterun is only a means to an end." Galmar: "I've toured our camps. We're ready, Ulfric... Whenever you are." Ulfric: "Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many." Galmar: "No. But neither is every man able to give that order when he must. But you are that man, Ulfric. You've been that man before, and you'll be him again. And these men and women - they call themselves Stormcloaks because they believe in you... They're the meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer. And they want this. They want this as much as you do. Perhaps they want it more." Ulfric: "You're certain we're ready? Whiterun's army will no doubt be bolstered with Legionnaires. And those walls around Whiterun are old, but they still stand." Galmar: "We're ready. And I might be old myself, but I'll kick those damn walls down with my bare feet! - if you would only ask me to do it!" Ulfric: "And I'm sure you could do it, too. Alright. This is it." Galmar: "Yes!" Ulfric: "Send the word. "A new day is dawning and the sun rises over Whiterun."" Galmar: "Aye, and the sons of Skyrim will greet that dawn teeth and swords flashing." Ulfric: "So it begins." Also, a side note about Galmar - he has dialogue that contradicts itself. - "My hatred for the Empire is bested only for love of my countrymen." - "My hatred for the Empire is bested only by hatred for their which elf puppet masters."

By the way, Does anyone know who the "right" side is to side with in the quest "In my time of need." - both claim the other works for the Thalmor, but I dont know who to believe.

The "Heroic Nord Legionnaires " were in Cheydinhal, under the command of General Jonna, who's force consisted mainly of Nord legions from Skyrim, in the Nibenay Valley, the Emperor marched the main body of the Legions south from Bruma, while General Decianus came from the west with his Redguard and Cyrodiilic legions. The Nords were alone in the Nibenay until they reached the Imperial City, where they met up with the other forces (Bretons, Imperials, Redguards) They also had their "Unbreakable" Shield Wall at the Imperial city, thus keeping the AD's forces inside the City. So this gives insight into Nordic capability against the magic of the elves in combat. And in the lore of TES the Nords have battled mer throughout history, so this also tells us they know how to fight against magic. A number of those Nord legionnairres are now Stormcloaks, so they are vets of the Great War and can share their knowledge of this tactic to their brothers and sisters - aka Stormcloaks.

There are three passes, choke points that the AD would have to pass through in order to get into Skyrim. The Stormcloaks show they know how to use guerrilla tactics, so the AD has to chase the guerrillas through the jagged, rocky, steep, ice-covered, mountains and face the harshest climate, winter wise, in Tamriel and fight an uphill battle. If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300. Or the Nords could block off the pass with an avalanche or rocks, then ambush the elves and either wipe them out or severely weaken them. Or they could cut them off from their supply lines and starve them out. Its not like the world we live in, borders can be crossed, so the Nords could attack the elves in the passes from the other side. The AD has to do nothing of the sort. You don't conquer a country by chasing small bands of annoyances around in the mountain. You siege and capture their cities and force them to fight on your terms. The elves aren't idiots and are not going to go walking into ambushes and fighting on unfavorable terrain when a very simple alternative is available. Besides, setting up a phalanx in a mountain pass works great until the elves start throwing fireballs into your formations. Immobile, tightly-grouped formations of the sort used to block off choke points are highly vulnerable to such attacks. I daresay if I were an AD commander, taking the mountain passes would be by far the easiest place to crush them and exactly where I'd want them to bottle up. I'd just march into Skyrim on the charred corpses of the Nords who thought we'd just mindless throw ourselves at them. Destruction magic is far less effective in a wide open battlefield, so I'd be fighting all my battles in mountain passes or sieges where I have the advantage and the Nords can't maneuver. On the way through the pass the Nords could harass the AD's army. Decreasing Moral and picking them off little by little. This wouldnt be all the forces of the Nords. And I would imagine the AD wouldnt be so foolish as to send all their forces into one pass. Aside from in game logistics, the Nords have shown in the past that they have a formidable military. So if they AD makes it threw the passes they wont be able to just take a city so easily. And maneuvering siege machines through the passes wont be so easy, considering how narrow they are, the guerrillas could simply destroy the machines and keep the elves from making them.Plus using siege machines in a pass would be highly ineffective. The Nords know how to block magic with a shield. Not completely but it lessons the force of the magic being put onto the Nords. It is a skill in game and can be taught. Plus the Nords arent incapable of learning magic, as much as they dislike it. The "Heroic Nord Legions" were not annihilated during the war, if it were so easy to kill them with magic, how then, did they survive and defeat the elven forces. They did meat "Stiff resistance" but prevailed. This is all assuming that the elves do, indeed, have an army ready to invade.

There are three passes, choke points that the AD would have to pass through in order to get into Skyrim. The Stormcloaks show they know how to use guerrilla tactics, so the AD has to chase the guerrillas through the jagged, rocky, steep, ice-covered, mountains and face the harshest climate, winter wise, in Tamriel and fight an uphill battle. If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300. Or the Nords could block off the pass with an avalanche or rocks, then ambush the elves and either wipe them out or severely weaken them. Or they could cut them off from their supply lines and starve them out. Its not like the world we live in, borders can be crossed, so the Nords could attack the elves in the passes from the other side. I would assume that when the Empire collapses their wont be much resistance within Cyrodiil, and the Forts in Cyrodiil would be taken by brigands and bandits, so in order to take the Forts there they must divert more resources and man power to take the Fort and hold it as well. Hammerfell wont just allow the AD to roll through Hammerfell, Morrowind wont allow it either. High Rock, well we don't know a lot about the situation there. They, for all we know, could be allied with the Dominion, unlikely but who knows. - If anyone has any info on High Rock, please share it, all we know is thats its still technically a part of the Empire, but judging by Galmar sending a request for their help makes me wonder if it is or not. I'm curious about High Rock. In "A concise account of the great war" is says Breton blood was spilled for the empire in the war, so we know they helped. The Elves have resorted to a "Divide and conquer" tactic. I assume they do this because they cannot provide a real military front against either the Empire or Skyrim. But I could be wrong, they could just be playing smart and weakening them without using their own resources. Ulfric: Any last words before I send you to Oblivion? (To Tullius) Tullius: You realize this is exactly what they wanted? Galmar: What who wanted? Tullius: The Thalmor, they stirred up trouble here, forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion. Ulfric: Its a little more than a rebellion don't you think? Galmar: Ah! Hahaha! (agreeing) Tullius: We aren't the bad guys you know. Ulfric: Maybe not. But you certainly aren't the good guys. Tullius: Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you? Ulfric: You just said it yourself. Galmar: It makes us right. Tullius: And if I surrender? Ulfric: The Empire I remember, never surrendered. Galmar: That empire is dead, and so are you. Tullius: So be it. etc, etc. You say the Stormcloaks are incapable, right now, of an invasion. It would make sense, but Galmar and Ulfric's first goal, after siding with them in the Civil War, is to rebuild Skyrim, then train armies, recruit more men, then invade Summerset Isles. This will take at least two to three years. They are also planning on building up defenses and preparing for the imperials trying to retake Skyrim and for the AD to try and invade. Also, Ulfric isnt oppressing the Dunmer. Belyn Hlaalu is very wealthy and is upset that his brothers (other Dunmer) are complaining about their situation but not doing anything. "The only way to earn the Nords respect is through Hard work." - Belyn Hlaalu. He's just one citizen that feels that way, also Niranye, Arivanya, Ulundi, Faryl Atheron and a few others. Also read "Scourge of the Grey Quarter." It explains that the Dunmer of Windhelm are the ones to blame for their situation. Not Ulfric or the Nords. I'm not, however, condoning the behavior of Rolf Stone-Fist, or Angrenor Once-Honored. Sorry I haven't been on to reply to you guys, I got a virus. And for Sithis17 calling me a veteran (If I'm correct), Thank you and I'm flattered but I have to say, I'm not a vet, I'm still active duty and only an E-3, Private First Class. Unless you were calling Ulfric Stormcloak a vet.

Ulfric killed Torygg to prove how weak he was, how much better Ulfric is and was than Torygg, Toyrgg was no boy, he was the High King of Skyrim. He was the High King because his father was High King. The Empire said "Ulfric 'murdered' him to not lose Elisif's claim to the throne and not lose their position in Skyrim because they need the resources. With Ulfric as High King is jeopardizes their over-all position in Skyrim and this is not what they want. "Once we've driven the Imperials from the reach, we can stop the raping of her silver mines. That silver belongs in Skyrim." - Ulfric So Ulfric has severed potential with his allies by killing his king? Morrowind, controlled by House Redoran, dislikes the Empire for abandoning it twice. Hammerfell hates the Empire for betraying it, twice. Black Marsh doesnt really care, Elsweyr is with the AD, High Rock is suffering from cities being attacked by corsairs. The Stormcloaks hate the Empire for stealing the silver from the reach, banning the worship of Talos, enforcing the will of the Thalmor, bashing Nordic culture and torturing Nords. Ya I can see why the empire would get all the allies (Sarcasm) The Empire is screwed. Rather than giving an actual argument against our proof that the Empire is crumbling you have to attack and say "Ulfric is an opportunist" - Well so was Titus Mede I, and your fighting for that Empire. He Stormed the White-Gold Tower and claimed himself Emperor, during the Stormcrown interregnum. That sounds like something that opportunistic to me. Titus Mede II took the chance to sign the WGC after taking back his throne in order to keep his throne, sold out Hammerfell, banned the Worship of Talos, and allowed the Thalmor to establish roots anywhere in the Empire.

So Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Morrowind are just going to allow the AD to roll in and attack Skyrim. I dont think so. They will have to fight Hammerfell again, which they showed they cant do easily, they have to fight Morrowind, who hates them as well. They have to fight the Bretons as well, all of this will divert their resources. Also I have explained before that taking Skyrim, due to its natural defenses, cannot be taken without an overwhelming military force, which the AD doesnt have. Thus why they are playing the divide and conquer game. The Sea of Ghosts is also arctic waters, not some pond with no waves and beasts. To get to Skyrim they will have to take forts, kill Imperials who wont be caught off guard, they have to march through a pass which is a choke point allowing for guerrillas to attack. The guerrillas know they land far better than the AD, and the Nords have a large military force. A force of, at the minimum, of 5,000 men. So if the AD cant take Hammerfell, how could they take Skyrim?

Nords used to worship Dragons lol Some Deadra are pretty cool actually. Like how the Dunmer worship Azura. They worship the evil Daedra. Azura and Meridia are not entirely evil. As quoted by Bethesda, not me. Why have a weak king rule? No Skyrim doesnt need a puppet king. Torygg was a puppet king. He, even in Sovngarde, is and was only truly worried about Elisif. Many 'tongues' used the voice to further themselves in 'non' needed cases, this doesnt make Ulfric evil. Ulfric never swore the vows of the greybeards and even mentions that he doesnt like using the thu'um. Not according to her journal. The Great Bear of Markarth "slept" instead of intervening on Hammerfell's behalf, same as the Sons of Skyrim. The War had already ended for everyone else except Hammerfell. And not all Nords are with Ulfric. Actually, she does, she comes right out and accuses him to his face, outright. The hint is the part about "Sons of Skyrim" so she is referring to the Stormcloaks, then with Ulfric also being known as the Bear of Markarth, so we clearly know who she is talking about. An Imperial General intentionally leaves almost an entire "volunteer" Legion behind which made it possible for the Redguards to win Hamerfell's freedom. And the Thalmor never forced the Empire to stop Hammerfell from not being able to worship whatever God, just Talos alone. Then what's been established is in-accurate. And I didn't say that, Skaven did. I just happen to agree with it. I'm sure not all Stormcloaks are opportunists but she makes it clear that their cause is opportunistic (at least when it comes to foreign policy) because they slept, uninterested in Hammerfell's affairs and only going active when the Empire threatened their interests. So, the Stormcloaks were never concerned with Hammerfell problem's. I wonder.. if to some degree seeing how her husband was killed by the Thalmor after the Markarth incident, and the Stormcloaks an official fighting force at and after Markarth, that she blames the Bear of Markarth and the Sons of Skyrim for her husband's death as much as the Empire? 4E 175 - WGC 4E 176 - Markarth Incident 4E 180 - Stros M'kai She never says "Ulfric is an opportunist" like you claim. She is talking about all the Stormcloaks. Of course they didnt help Hammerfell, they couldnt. They were busy taking back the reach, busy trying to take Skyrim back from the imperials. Her husband was an Imperial soldier. He fought for the empire, thus meaning he died during the great war. The term 'sleeping' doesnt mean ignoring or denying. It means unaware or sitting by. Admiral Yamamoto referred to America as a sleeping giant. The Stormcloaks werent concerned with Hammerfell because they were pre- occupied. Your manipulating the information to you benefit. They also stopped the worship of Talos. Bethesda wrote that dialogue, not me. So dont try and say "oh it wasnt all the gods." Look at the facts, Your in denial.

Other than Skaven being a Redguard, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that she represents the entirety or the majority of Hammerfall's opinion of the Empire. You are overlooking two things. 1) She lost her husband in the Great War, and the fact that he was fighting the Thalmor in a "pointless war" meant nothing to her, the only thing she did seem to care about was how the Imperials didn't return his body, they cremated him. For her, the hatred of the Empire is personal and if it's personal then that's more of her opinion based on circumstance and certainly not all Redguards will share it. 2) Skaven's journal is by no means a "ringing endorsement" for the Stormcloaks to ally with Hammerfell. It's a blessing and a curse. The last paragraph refutes the idea of an alliance completely and also paints Ulfric as an opportunist and not a true crusader. She recognizes this difference, as do I. With Ulfric basically not doing anything about anything until it's convenient for him, her final thought on the matter is to see both the Empire and the Stormcloaks in Oblivion. By your viewpoint, then it would seem the Redguards view the Stormcloaks as not doing anything to save them just like the Empire did... Because either way Hammerfell stood alone, except for the Legion left behind by the Empire. So, this piece really does not help your cause at all because if you are to say that this reflects Redguard sentiment, then by her final thought the Redguards don't think very Highly of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks because they did not have Hammerfell's back either. On the other hand, Justianus Quintius, a Legion Veteran who was "there" writes his piece in a very rational, consistent manner. There is no trace of "utopia fantasies" in his piece unlike Skaven's, being wrought with emotion and bitterness with actual fantasies.... ... ... ... It really comes down to which piece is more reliable, that written by an enraged Redguard Widow who is mad at the Empire for cremating her husand in as she describes a "pointless war" with no mention of his sacrifice in the cause for Freedom? Or an Imperial Legion veteran who knows the score, just came from the War and seems to have a firm understanding on where the game is going next and is worried about how everyone will be affected by what's coming? "All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat." Never does he waver or change his stance unlike Skaven and his piece is written of a more mature and warrior like mind. In the end, I wonder who will win the day? 1) The opportunist(s) who *apparently* could have done something and did nothing. OR 2) The guy(s) who abandoned them, yet did just enough to secure their freedom? (History has shown they would have almost certainly lost otherwise) Place your bets folks!!! :biggrin: How did they secure their freedom when they are not allowing them to worship their god? Hm? Thats a bit hazy to me, also considering that a large percentage of Stormcloak soldiers are ex legionnaires who fought for the empire in the great war. We have established that The Stormcloaks are not opportunists, your in denial of this by continuing to call them such. "So why did you join the Stormcloaks?" "My cousin disappeared one night, some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasnt long before I found myself Under Ulfrics banner." - "Im a true Nord. Its as simple as that." - "I dont want some snotty elf telling me what Gods I can and cant worship." Dovahkiin to Ulfric: Why are you fighting this war? Ulfric: Were fighting because were done bleeding for an Empire that wont bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the dominion, and for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne. Were fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their peoples suffering. Were fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and theres no one else but us."

Where does she call Ulfric anything, thats a false claim "she paints him an opportunist" Thats a straight up lie. She doesnt even mention Ulfric.

Other than Skaven being a Redguard, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that she represents the entirety or the majority of Hammerfall's opinion of the Empire. You are overlooking two things. 1) She lost her husband in the Great War, and the fact that he was fighting the Thalmor in a "pointless war" meant nothing to her, the only thing she did seem to care about was how the Imperials didn't return his body, they cremated him. For her, the hatred of the Empire is personal and if it's personal then that's more of her opinion based on circumstance and certainly not all Redguards will share it. 2) Skaven's journal is by no means a "ringing endorsement" for the Stormcloaks to ally with Hammerfell. It's a blessing and a curse. The last paragraph refutes the idea of an alliance completely and also paints Ulfric as an opportunist and not a true crusader. She recognizes this difference, as do I. With Ulfric basically not doing anything about anything until it's convenient for him, her final thought on the matter is to see both the Empire and the Stormcloaks in Oblivion. By your viewpoint, then it would seem the Redguards view the Stormcloaks as not doing anything to save them just like the Empire did... Because either way Hammerfell stood alone, except for the Legion left behind by the Empire. So, this piece really does not help your cause at all because if you are to say that this reflects Redguard sentiment, then by her final thought the Redguards don't think very Highly of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks because they did not have Hammerfell's back either. On the other hand, Justianus Quintius, a Legion Veteran who was "there" writes his piece in a very rational, consistent manner. There is no trace of "utopia fantasies" in his piece unlike Skaven's, being wrought with emotion and bitterness with actual fantasies.... ... ... ... It really comes down to which piece is more reliable, that written by an enraged Redguard Widow who is mad at the Empire for cremating her husand in as she describes a "pointless war" with no mention of his sacrifice in the cause for Freedom? Or an Imperial Legion veteran who knows the score, just came from the War and seems to have a firm understanding on where the game is going next and is worried about how everyone will be affected by what's coming? "All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat." Never does he waver or change his stance unlike Skaven and his piece is written of a more mature and warrior like mind. In the end, I wonder who will win the day? 1) The opportunist(s) who *apparently* could have done something and did nothing. OR 2) The guy(s) who abandoned them, yet did just enough to secure their freedom? (History has shown they would have almost certainly lost otherwise) Place your bets folks!!! :biggrin: You forgot an important point. It was the Nords who saved the empire, not the empire. The Nords saved the Empire when they stormed the White-Gold Tower.

A legate who wishes for the unlikely. A wife who states the obvious. You must be ignoring that the Empire - royally screwed everyone but the citizens of Cyrodiil.

The Journal represents all Redguard hatred for the Empire, this is how Bethesda passes on the information. - Why would Hammerfell side with an Empire that abandoned them, and sold them out? Its a long shot for any alliance between Hammerfell and the Empire and by long shot I mean longer than any shot ever fired. She talks about going to war with the Empire - "Would that the Stormcloaks had half their sense. We could have used them to push the elves right off the continent and formed a new state to combat the empire." So - "Lets pray that a nation we betrayed and sold out will ally with us to help kill an enemy we are incapable of combating." Thats a hopeful gesture, not a thought out plan. If the Empire was so worried about everyone, then why in the past have they been focused on saving Cyrodiil? She doesnt damn the Stormcloak cause, shes upset that they are just now realizing the Empire for its true self. - "And now, when I am so close, a war breaks out. The sleeping bear of Skyrim, who would not come to aid us in Hammerfell, awakens now that the Empire has abandoned them as well. They think they know suffering at the hands of the Empire? They know nothing. I would see both the Empire and these sons of Skyrim into Oblivion myself."

For Mopel, welcome to the Forums. Its good to see a fellow Stormcloak. I concur with 90% of everything you said. The only thing I would say differently, the racism. Many NPC's say "The Nords are, at best, suspicious of outsiders." But some are no doubt racists (Rolf Stone-Fist, Angrenor Once-Honered) but I would call them "prejudice" rather than racist. But thats my opinion really. Best of luck further down range - prepare for a barrage of Imperial quotes and counter arguments. Ill help out wherever I can. For Kayyyleb, I cant find it anywhere saying that Tullius is commander of the 7th legion. It exists sure enough but nothing is mentioned about him being the commander, I see the 9th legion, 10th, 12th, 18th, 1st and 7th. But none are mentioned to be in Skyrim other than (mentioned only) - the 9th, 10th, and 1st, went to Akivir and never returned. But none are said to be in Skyrim. Its obvious to see that there is one or more but I dont find it anywhere saying which one or how many. Wait scratch that. I found a link - It says the 4th legion is in Skyrim being commanded by Tullius. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Legion So only 1 legion is in Skyrim. A legion consists of 5,000 men roughly. So we have to assume that the Stormcloaks have an army of greater or equal force depending on which side you take. I say that the Empire is weak in government and economy. Militarily the Imperial Legion out number (as to in game logistics) the Nords but it appears that Numbers arent the pivot in strategy. Its about who has the advantage and superior tactics and fighting ability. The Nords show they have outstanding fighting ability, as do the Redguards, also they show they have the will for it, the drive for it. Taking the Stormcloaks side you see that Galmar is of equal strategic capability with Legate Rikke. And we cant assume that the Stormcloaks are using "everything they have" to combat the legion. They arent fielding all of their forces at once. So they could have reserve armies waiting in camps in Eastmarch or wherever. Talos showed that during the battle of Sancre Tor, that numbers mean nearly nothing, he caught the Nords and Bretons off guard and flanked them. He used tactics and surprise to win the day, because he knew that a standard siege would have meant the end of his army.

Im happy that you have enlightened me on this subject, but why then would they have Tullius say that. Maybe its a mistake or not, either way it doesnt make a difference.

Its not all about Torygg, he was weak, truly, he was also more interested in pleasing Elisif than ruling Skyrim Righteously. Ulfric used the voice but did not kill him with it. Dovahkiin: At helgen, they say you shouted the king to death. Ulfric: Not entirely true, though not entirely false either, any Nord can learn the way of the voice by studying with the GreyBeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground, proved he had neither. However it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him. Dovahkiin: Why did you kill the High King? Ulfric: I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he cant even defend himself. Dovahkiin: Some call you a murderer. Ulfric: I challenged him in the traditional way and he accepted, there were many witnesses, no 'murder' was committed. True, he didnt stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet king of the Empire, not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him perhaps but not Torygg, he was too privileged and too foolish. More interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country. Dovahkiin: What of his bride, doesnt she claim the throne? Ulfric: Indeed, Elisif has become Jarl of Solitude, historically and conveniently home of the High King, backed by imperial interests. But the Moot has not met to name her High Queen, and they wont. Not as long as I have any say in it. But like I've said before, you dont have to support Ulfric to be a Stormcloak. I love Ulfric, almost everything about him, yes I would fix many things about him but I love him for what he is. Ulfric has compassion, a lot really, he may be fighting to become HK but when asked - Dovahkiin: Do you wish to become King? Ulfric: We haven had a true High King for generations. For too long he's been hand picked by the Emperor and given emphatic nods by milk drinking Jarls, addicted to Imperial coin. It's time we had a real High King, one of our own making. Later in conversation. - Dovahkiin: You trained with the Greybeards? Ulfric: Yes, they chose me when I was just a lad, it was a great honor of course. I was to become a Greybeard myself. I spent almost ten years at High Hrothgar, learning the way of the voice. Then the Great War came, I couldnt stand missing it. I often think about High Hrothgar, its very . . . disconnected from the troubles down here. But thats why I couldnt stay, and why I couldnt go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrims troubles, in their way. But I needed to do something about it. Im sure Arngier would call it 'one of my failings.' Dovahkiin: So you know how to shout? Ulfric: Yes, although I rarely use my training. The Greybeards believe the voice should only be used for worship of Kynareth. I have . . . fallen from their strict teaching, but I still dont think it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngiers lecturing was wasted it seems. Dovahkiin: Arngier - He's a Greybeard? Ulfric: Yes, the oldest and most powerful although he may not seems so. I doubt he's forgiven me for leaving. And for well, for what he considered blasphemy. For using shouts for anything but worship of Kynareth. Also, correction to my last post. I am not saying the elves dont have an army, but Im saying that their army was weakened severely during the great war and showed that they cant take over Tamriel by force when they went to war with Hammerfell. But the Empire (not the legion alone) cannot go to war again because it will cause even more civil unrest within Cyrodiil and they show that right now they cant seem to put an end to it. So after they are weakened after another campaign, spent even more money, stretched even further, and pissed off more people, they will ultimately collapse. But thats saying that magically the legion can act on its own, which it cant. Last time there was no heir to the throne the Empire fell into the 'Stormcrown Interregnum' and burst into civil war with petty lords trying to claim the throne, until Titus Mede I took it by force and declared himself Emperor. So now the Empire will burst into even further strife, making it use even more resources and lose more power. There may be a chain of command but if the empires equivalent to head of the DOD were to take charge, he would have to get his orders from someone else, the equivalent to the Sec of State, who would need to get his orders from the Emperor. the Emperor has the final say, and now there is no emperor. There is no proof or evidence that the Dovahkiin will become Emperor, only speculation and rumors. Like Lithium Flower said "The basic theme of the whole series is 'The Fall of the Empire'. As far back as Morrowind, they've been building up to it, hinting towards this inevitability. See the Talos avatar character Wulf's lines. Lots of dialogue in Oblivion establishes how unrest is growing in the peripheral provinces in contrast to the wealth and decadence of the centre and now finally we are witnessing its death throes in Skyrim. You would have to ignore real world history, you would have to ignore TES history, you would have to ignore the themes in at least three previous games to argue that the Empire is magically going to be restored if only Ulfric is killed and by then you might as well argue that the new emperor will be Doctor Who in the Tardis." For Mighty Zog - Its been 30 years since the great war and the Empire has not recovered. So how can suddenly killing Ulfric make it easier to rebuild?

I have never said (and you didnt say it either) that Ulfric doesnt want to be High King. He does. He killed Torygg to prove a point, that he was weak, why let him continue to reign? Ulfric killed him because Toryyg was a fool an a kings throne. According to Cicero's journal and the dialogue of many NPC's Cyrodiil is ripe with crime and drug wars. "27th of Sun's Height, 4E 188. Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached. May the Night Mother watch over her children in their hour of need. 5th of Last Seed, 4E 188. We received word today - the Wayrest Sanctuary was raided and destroyed by the corsairs. There were no survivors. There are now only three active Dark Brotherhood strongholds remaining: The Cheydinhal Sanctuary, here in the Imperial province; a remote Sanctuary located in a forest in Skyrim; and the Corinthe Sanctuary of Elsweyr. The Black Hand has ordered the Corinthe Sanctuary closed, and its members integrated into our own ranks here, in Cheydinhal. I will embrace those new family members as warmly as I was, when I first made my home here." "27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. The Listener, Alisanne Dupre, has been forced to employ sellswords to protect her own residence." "1st of Hearthfire, 4E 189. Cheydinhal has errupted into violece and chaos, like so many other cities before it. The Sanctuary has remained unbreached, but for how long? Our numbers are few, and with no Speaker, the contracts have dwindled almost to nothingness. Rasha's hold on the Sanctuary is slipping. "I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil, only to have it track me down here in Skyrim." - Inn keeps, other NPC's. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, Galmar and the Dragonborn all have more will to fight. They will fight to the death, "Victory or Sovngarde!!" Translated: Victory or death!! - More will. The Empire cannot afford another war with the dominion. The Thalmor have eyes and ears inside the Empires top members. They have an HQ in Solitude, right there is proof that they can easily find out what the Empire is planning. Tullius makes little mention of planning to attack the AD because he knows they will find out if he says anything. Ulfric and Galmar announce it loudly and proudly that they will fight them. "The legion is spread thin trying to keep the peace." - Brina Merelis an ex imperial captain. Ulfric did challenge Torygg. In the old way, The old way is when another Jarl believes the High King is not fit to rule, so he challenges him to a duel and fight to the death. the winner is crowned the High King. But the Empire didnt want Ulfric in power because it would jeopardize their postition in Skyrim, so they molded it into the fact that Torygg was an Imperial citizen and framed Ulfric as a murderer, and drove him out of Solitude, then Roggvir allowed him to escape because it was the right thing to do, then he was killed by the Imperials for it. The Reachmen also worship daedra and sacrifice humans. They needed to be driven out regardless of by who. "I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade.". Then he continues the story by saying "The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. I had spoken to Madanach once, that was enough." - Braig, a prisoner in Cidnha mine. He isnt talking about Ulfric, hes talking about Igmund, the Jarl of Markarth. And Jurgen Windcaller was way before Talos's time. Jurgen started the Way of The Voice and was the first Grey Beard. The Grey Beards taught Talos that he would become the emperor of Tamriel. The AD doesnt have some hidden military. Like we keep saying, the AD's army was whipped out during the Great War and cant fight a war like they used to. Otherwise they would have taken Hammerfell by now and they clearly havent. The empire just cannot go on like this, and its only getting worse. It cant help High Rock without risking opening its front to the Elves. It cant control its own cities, It has proven to weak to last much longer.

Ya I think my browser is bad or something. I use Opera, is that the problem? And Im looking into to shortening my sig, Im not sure which quotes I like the best though. I dont hate your name, I hate the fact that I read "Sisterov" haha, sorry, poor choice in sentence structure on my part. For some reason I get that <msbp> stuff. I know its the code for "enter" and quotations. Im not sure how to fix that. A also hate when I edit after someone has quoted me. I feel like an as$. I try to do it quickly so they can catch my fix. Im trying to be as nice as I can but I get to angry or excited a lot. I want to apologize in advance for attacking anyone personally. Im not here to do that, so if I do, im sorry.

And the Reachmen are not peaceful. It may have been said "It was a peaceful Kingdom" in the book "The Bear of Markarth" But that book is written by an Imperial scholar who also wrote "Madmen of the Reach" Igmund also says "It was little more that a chaotic uprising." And By the way. Talos used the voice as well. So shouldnt he be considered a usurper? He may have even killed Reman Cyrodiil to become emperor? Who knows. But he did use the voice. To kill Reachmen. Also the plans to invade summerset Isles, those arent just Ulfrics. They're also Galmars. Rikke knows Galmar is no fool. She says that herself. Galmar was a legionnaire during the Great War. He wasnt captured by the Thalmor or the Imperials, he also was at Markarth.

Skyrim needs to be independent. The Empire has no reason to be in Skyrim except for resources and man power. I have never said "the dragonborn being on the side of the Stormcloaks is why they will beat the dominion." It's actually something I left out on purpose. Militarily the Empire may have a chance. Maybe. The fact that the Stormcloaks try to get High Rocks help makes me think that maybe High Rock is independent. Im not sure on High Rock, its the only province other than the dominion that we know so little about currently. The fact that the Empire, the Empire, not the legion, has so many problems makes it obvious that it will perish and collapse. Lithium Flower made a great point. After TES IV: Oblvion we see that the empire is instantly weakened. Losing 4 provinces, one is completely devastated and invaded, yet the Empire does nothing. the empire plunges into the Stormcrown interregnum, Hammerfell breaks out in civil war, then the Great War comes. Then the empire loses another province, another breaks into civil war, and civil unrest breaks out in Cyrodiil, crime becomes increasingly high and the legion spreads itself out to try to keep the peace. Now the Emperor is dead, and a power struggle will take place, putting Cyrodiil even deeper in trouble. And if Ulfric is such a terrible strategist, then how is he and Galmar and the Dragonborn able to defeat the legion and take Skyrim back? Using the voice is smart. In Nordic Tradition they are called tongues. Using the voice is a tool. Torygg was to foolish to have taken Ulfrics advice. Sebille Stentar even says that he still would have sided with the Empire. Ulfric killed him because he was a terrible High King. Even in Sovngarde Torygg is only worried about Elisif, Ulfric is worried about Skyrim.

The Empire isnt going to get money from anyone to help bail it out. It will buckle under its own weight. I think the reason for being able to take both siides is to allow the player to see why the Empire is the wrong side to choose. I chose the Empire before I knew what happened in the Great War, I was uninformed and naive then, and now my views have changed for the better. For Sisterof - I hate it. Every time I read your name I read "sisterov" Like its slavic or something. I just needed to say it.

Also I made it clear that each Stormcloak soldier actually has reasons for siding with the Stormcloaks. Rikki and Hadvar seem to be the only two Imperial NPC's that voice saying Skyrims only hope is the Empire. Sisterof made a great point a while back. The Septim Empire had a supernatural reason to exist. To protect Tamriel form the gates of Oblivion. Now the Septims are dead, and the gates to oblivion were sealed shut permanently when Martin Septim sacrificed himself. There is no Amulet of Kings. The Allesian Empire used it, and Tiber Septim got it from the Reman Cyrodiil's tomb in Sancre Tor. So now theres no supernatural reason for this Empire to exist. And if a new Empire were to emerge it would need to be a new Empire. Not the shell of this crumbling a dying one we have now but one in which first the nations need to secede from and become independent, because every country in Tamriel has a reason to hate it. Black Marsh doesnt care really. So thats why we need a new Empire. Destroy the old one and forge a new one. But perhaps the Empire will live on, but if it magically makes it through all this, I wont be a part of it. I wouldnt even play the next TES game if this Empire is in control. Specifically this Empire, the Mede Empire. If a different Empire were to emerge (Other than the AD) then I will consider it.