Anska

Oh, the Twilight Sepulcher! Bound to Nocturnal are we? So, tell me, friend thief, in what way would the Dovahkin make a better ruler of Skyrim than the Emperor or Jarl Ulfric would? Or is it in the end just your dragonblood beckoning, calling out to your inner need for domination? Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though, I've read a couple of times that the Dragonborn should just take over Skyrim so s/he could turn it into a juster, better place. Which is (apart from probably being a fun game idea) basically the same thing Ulfric is currently doing and perhaps underlines the idea that, in order to fundamentally change anything about Skyrim, you need the title and power of High King or Queen. Disapproving of Ulfric for wanting a position while at the same time wishing to take it over for oneself (for the same reasons no less) seems a tad hypocritical to me. Wouldn't you agree?

The Rift isn't imperial at the beginning of the game, and even if it was: There is only a very narrow, steep path that goes up to Ivarstead somewhere near Dark Water Crossing and I don't think it's even broad enough for a horse-cart. I think they picked Helgen, because it was the closest town with a military base. Just look at it: Half of the town is actually an Imperial fortress. That Roggvir's execution was delayed for so long is odd indeed, but the rest seems rather plausible to me. The Stormcloaks as such are older than the CW, the original ones apparently were the men who followed him to Markarth 25 (?) years ago. The name was originally meant as an insult but was later adopted by the soldiers themselves as a sort of honorary title (And I currently can't find, where I read this. I think someone in Markarth or one of the Stormcloaks tells the tale.). So after the duel Ulfric's troupes didn't form, they just grew in numbers - just as the country was now forced to take sides. Things went well for Ulfric until the Empire sent its man for dire situations, Tullius, up, who managed to turn the tables again. Catching Ulfric out of his own territory seems indeed daring. Apparently all previous attempts to catch him had failed. At least, that's what Hadvar tells you. Edit: And Helgen becomes perhaps a bit more logical too, if you consider that they were actually on their way to Cyrodil, when Tullius suddenly changed his mind - also according to Hadvar. Perhaps he was afraid the Thalmor would meddle after all.

The whole point, I brought the duel up for, was as an example for Ulfric using a legally accepted custom/ rule to get his ends, which according to Sybille it was. It might not be a very nice custom or a very clever one (and I still think it was an ugly affair ) but within the legal system of Skyrim it is apparently possible to challenge your High King if you think, he isn't fit for the job - so no matter how unpopular this particular rule is, I believe the example still supports my point. And, to add a particularly heartless observation, from what Sybille says, Torygg very much had a choice. He could have played it cool and waited for Ulfric to call the Moot, changing the battlefield from one he was certain to loose to one he might have had a chance to win (if with a dented reputation).

I was just looking up that quote, I promised yesterday and have to take back what I said about them being shocked. Sybille simply regrets having not noticed sooner what Ulfric was up to. The following quotes should also settle the question if it was a duel in the first place and they also pretty strongly indicate that Ulfric was able to leave Solitude, because nobody objected to him having won the challenge yet just after the duel. Apart from that, they all seemed to have needed some time to recover from the shouting. And from the way Ulfric and his thu'um are described, (Eilisif even compares it to "something out of a legend... Or a nightmare.") Ulfric made just the impression he was aiming for.

To start at the bottom: Is the theorie I go with. They should have expected someone to die in a duel. I don't really go with the idea that Ulfric just showed up in the throne room, killed Torygg and left. I think Ulfric issued the challenege for the duel as it was supposed to have been (which admitedly came as a shock to the court too) and the rest is somewhat shadey and the reason for not jumping into action right after the duel. Secondly: when did "respected him" become "great respect"? The court assumed Ulfric might try to talk Torygg into leaving the Empire, an endeavour all of Torygg's advisors would have opposed. So it is doubtful if it had really been as easy to persuade Torygg as Sybille makes it sound. ... but what Torygg would have done or wouldn't have done is a very uncertain topic at best. The quote from Torygg you posted actually indicates that it was a duel situation too, even if not an honourable one. Torygg had enough time to prepare for death to actually face it fearlessly and think about his terriffied wife, also the questioning of honour makes only sense in a duel situation. It is called "murder" by some people because they equal a dishonourable duel with murder. Doesn't everything taste like chicken anyway?

Just to clarify: By Forsworn armor you mean the chest-piece, right?

I pondered this a while and have to concede. I totaly forgot the very basic idea that when you aren't in the mood for something it simply won't do at all, no matter how great it would be otherwise. If you are in the mood for a suspense laden plot with many twists and turns, a sappy and predictable romance story won't make you happy - just as it wouldn't work the other way round. As for deadking Torygg. I would think, a dead man should be the one most biased by his own demise because he is, after all, the one subjected to a rather life-changing experience (or crime, depending on your pov). Not to mention, I am not sure how accurately he was able to percive the last moments of his life, since being shouted at is a pretty shattering experience in itself. Apart from this; how come everything Ulfric says is either a flat out lie or somekind of rhetoric manipulation, while everything the other characters say is either taken literally or as statements "unspoiled" by rhetorics or bias? In his short speech in Sovngard Torygg presents himself as the cultivated, romantic hero (fearless in the face of certain death, while his only thoughts concern the feelings of his lady-love) while casting Ulfric in the role of the honourless brute of a villian who slew him. This is conveyed by the very poetic wording and syntax which presents Torygg as a gentleman capable of genteel speech, while Ulfric on the other side comes across almost as a force of nature (something that subjects you to an inescapable fate, like a great storm for example) and is associated with a "savage" (in other words uncultured) practice. The Highking of Skyrim dares to call one of the most sacred traditions of his own country savage... Apart from sounding somewhat miffed, Torygg's short bit in Sovngarde underlines nicely why Ulfric claims to have killed him: he cared mostly about his wife, was too soft (overly cultivated in a cyrodilic way) and didn't care too much of the more traditional aspects of Skyrim's cultur. Concerning the duel and the escape afterwards: I have never really thought about where the duel took place. I always assumed, it had taken place either in or somewhere near the palace, but Castle Dour seems a plausible location too. If Ulfric had had a large number of people with him, I assume someone would have included this within their story. Yet I would guess he did have someone with him (at least someone who waited for him outside the gate), because it would be odd for a Jarl to travel this far completely on his own. My guess would be that, what made Ulfric's escape possible is exactly the topic we have been debating about on the last page: the confusion over whether he had won the duel or commited a crime. When you ask Sybille Stentor about it, she remarks that they had been too shocked by the events to react at first (I'll look up the exact quote later). I guess in regard to the guards "shocked" simply means that they were somewhat nonplussed, when the duell ended the way and as quickly as it did. They didn't object to Ulfric leaving the scene, because they were not quite sure what to make of the events at first. By the time the dust had settled and the opinion that Ulfric hadn't won the duel but murdered the king had taken shape, Ulfric was already halfway through the city. Now I have two ideas how the story might have concluded: In the more dramatic one, the guards charged after Ulfric and caught sight of him just before the gate. They shouted at Roggvir to close the gate but he didn't. Ulfric escaped and Roggvir got arrested instead. In the less dramatic version, the guards only reached the gate after Ulfric had already left and Roggvir got primaly executed for being the only person in Solitude defending Ulfric's position instead of claiming he knew nothing about the exploited duel and regretting he let the man get away.

Can you actually read those rules up somewhere? I am just curious. The thing which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about the whole affair is that it wasn't an even match. Torygg never stood a chance. Otoh that was exactly Ulfric's point, wasn't it? *sighs* I guess in the end it runs down to me feeling somewhat sorry for Torygg - which is an emotion that isn't rather helpful in this matter.

Most of all it was his conversation with Galmar after you return the axe to him which went along the lines of "Then I was wrong about him." "Told you so" "Do shut up." .... it was a bit longer, but that's the gist of it. Additionally, I wonder, why do you find it so implausible that Ulfric indeed would prefer to win as much of Skyrim as he can without bloodshed? Just because he apparently has no qualms over killing Torygg? 2nd Edit: I just saw that we probably misunderstood us. I don't think that the "duel" was absolutely in accordance with the rules. Ulfric claims it is. I meant that it's rule-bending if ever there was some, but he at least tried to get rid of Torygg under a sort of legalish pretence. He didn't just kill him, he tried to find an culturally accepted frame for it.

Only, it wasn't really just a guise or some way to look good in the end. (Although I wouldn't put this past him either.) Ulfric didn't really expect the thing with the axe to go that way, he expected Balgruuf to join him. It's odd really, I usually get the impression from these early stages of the CW that Ulfric likes Balgruuf quite well and holds him in high regard, while being totally oblivious of the fact, that Balgruuf can't stand him and thinks nothing of him. There is an odd parallel to Ulfric and Torygg in this. And I wondered about the way Ulfric talks to Delphine too. Edit: Just to clarify, I agree with the general statement and especially with the assumption that Galmar couldn't pull of the CW on his own even if he wanted to. He is a good right-hand but not such a great leader. And I think Ulfric's "duel" with Torygg is quite a good example for him being political, if you are looking for one. He tells you at the same time that while it wasn't really a fair fight (Torygg never stood a chance) it was absolutely in accordance with the rules... The thing with the axe though ... it leaves me a little puzzled whenever I think about it.

I remember to have seen a mod once, which allows you to sell the stones to the Trading Carawans if you don't want to do the original quest. I still think, that is the smoothest solution for the problem. I forgot what the mod's name was, but I am sure you can easily find it in the Nexus. :)

I am a bit surprised nobody mentioned "Shalebridge Cradle" in regard to scary things in games yet ... Apart from that, the zombies and Lucien's mangled corpse from Oblivion weren't scary, they were disgusting. There's a fine line and I'm quite glad they didn't try too hard to cross it in Skyrim.

So quick answer: it is certainly possible - I mean for all we know the whole dossier could be a fake just waiting for a nosy intruder to pick it up - however I don' t think it very likely, the story told in the dossier just simply makes most sense if you accept it at face value. You could say that, according to the dossier, the Thalmor conditioned Ulfric to really hate them (amongst other things) so they would have one more person of importance who would not like their terms, should the need for a treaty arrise and possibly cause trouble in the future . They wanted to let him go, but simply releasing him might have caused suspicion, so they allowed him to free himself. However, as you said yourself, for your argument it's totally irrelevant whether or not he really escaped.

Thanks for the link, you two. I'll try this the next time I start a new character, it looks like fun. I had seen some left-over CW files in the creation kit before and thought that it's such a waste that they never have been put to use. Bozzz, perhaps it helps with the realism that many Stormcloaks are former Imperial soldiers? I guess they simply didn't give up their training along with their loyalties. I generally agree with you though.

Yes ... I did this once. Even though she has a "Protected" mark on her house, I think. But I thought, "What the heck! As long as I don't get caught, it doesn't matter." (And I totally agree about the sneak-mechanics, DemonicSlayer.) After I had almost all her silverware and about every other item of value in the house in my spacious pockets though, it dawned on me that something was off. By all means I should have had the quest finished after clearing the dining room alone. Figures, that at some point taking things from her home doesn't count as stealing anymore ... I was thoroughly disappointed and didn't know who else to steal the stuff from, because I actually like most of the other NPC in Riften (including the Guild).