blackasm

I am an artist and a mod author and I have been more than vocal about standing up for the rights of the artists, but after all of these events it has left me wondering, what would be a better way? I like many mod authors have now been looking at how much my time is worth and I can honestly say I wont be creating art for free any more, I had determined that before with my art, but modding was a sort of grey area for me because I didn't recognize the potential value that I was devaluing by making it free. Tartarsauce, you have a number of valid points especially about what a mod means to people. A major thing to consider when looking at mods; what they are and where they stand now, is that originally modding was created by talented people trying to modify their own game but quickly became an effective platform for aspiring game developers to develop their portfolios and get hired. As games become more complicated and competitive the requirement for specific game development degree programs has become an industry standard and as a result those without the means to achieve that degree are left with talent, interest and ability towards but no way to break into a market. Worse than that is the fact that the game degrees are highly competitive with far more graduates than positions leaving even more unemployed talented individuals. Currently modding as it is today has proliferated because quite frankly there are entirely too many starving artists; really talented individuals who have gotten a gaming degree or something like it, have the know-how, but don't have the job. I feel the amount of amazing mods and their subsequent popularity is proof that there is room for a new market. Technically people have already been profiting off of this market: The Nexus, youtube reviewers and even game companies indirectly profit. What the paid modding attempt proved to modders everywhere was that even a shitty incomplete but good looking armor was worth more once put on market than all of the coin-in-the-cup donations and fake accolades of imaginary endorsements of even the greatest mods. Clearly there is a real and huge market for independent game developers but for it to function it would need a lot of work and some renaming. For the skyrim paid modding system to function properly I am convinced they would have needed to have a much better defined system that properly addressed all of the issues mentioned. For starters I think they would have needed to hire mod organizer and loot team and have them create a better integrated system connected to steam. I think 5% of the sales (presumably taken out of Bethesda's cut) could have been used to pay a team of programmers, modders and even mod contributer/testers that could then help maintain a system of quality assurance. And through that quality assurance system basically limit what content can be put up for sale, so for example a suit of armor would have to have stats that fit into the games lore, balance and have proper perks tempering location in game and whatnot. And even perhaps where if a mod doesn't initially qualify for being sellable it could maybe be allowed later based on endorsements reviews downloads and whatnot. The sale system itself would have to be hugely more indepth with room to split the percentage to the independent developer several ways. Having an integrated system like that would easily inspire more developers to collaborate, for example lets say mod guy A likes to makes cool quest mods but they lack original content, and Mod guy B likes to make cool armors and weapons but cant implement them in the game, and Mod guy C likes to do voice acting and music. On their own they might not have the ability to make a full sellable mod, but they can come together collaborate decide on a percentage and release their cool new indie dlc. Of course I don't really see this happening with skyrim, and it would be waay hard for them to try and implement it, I see a system like this being implemented into their next game which no doubt they are already planning as we speak.

In response to post #24871504. Very well put, as it stands the nexus gets money you could say directly from the effort of modders, as well as you tube mod reviewers, bethesda really only gets hype/publicity through modders. Typically mod authors that generate revenue from their own site would lose out being part of the nexus. I have said it a number of times earlier, but it is a classic case of talented people undervaluing themselves.

Since this whole paid modding fiasco erupted I have been more vocal in standing up for the artists right to earn a living and I still strongly feel the modding community lost out as a whole as proven by the re-emergence of great mod authors and their subsequent quitting. I and a number of other modders feel like we lost an immense opportunity to create newer and better content for everyone that would have benefitted what would have been both the paid and non paid community. The general opinion amongst many mod authors was to still keep their free content free and only charge for newer better content (content that would require a full time jobs worth of effort). I think at the end of the day we have proven that free modding is here to stay and wont leave, the nexus will stay free and the collaboration will still be strong. In fact the only thing that seemed to seriously hurt the modding community here was the fact that many mod authors just realized that their time and efforts were greatly undervalued and the moment that their skills and talants were about to be appreciated in a meaningful way, they had their dream taken away from them because the people who were unwilling to pay for that dream drowned out the people who were. Everyone agrees the implementation was atrocious, and even though the percentage break down seems unfair to most, I am actually more for a 30 to valve (that is how steam operates with everything) and 25% Bethesda 40% modder and 5% to a mod oversight, there are a number of ways this could be implemented and I want to hear all suggestions. I have heard all of the concerns and they are all true but realistically I feel they are all also resolvable so I want this thread to be a constructive brainstorm of how this can be implemented. What is a realistic return policy? To me the funds should be held not paid to the mod author by steam, until 5 days, giving the user ample time to test and see if the mod is compatible if not it gets returned. In prevention of piracy I think the community can help but it also would take a little more than that, that is why earlier I mentioned an oversight that would have to be implemented but also what about when someone is found guilty after the fact. To me it is theft plain and simple without explicit permission, someone trying to sell content better have created it themselves and should be subject to the consequences, not valve or Bethesda but the uploader this is money after all and theft is a big deal. That means their needs to be a much more comprehensive system to uploading mods, mod pages in general. What about mod compatability, mod managers and the fact that so many mods are dependant on others? Already many of the free modder resources have declared they would remain free while other authors said the opposite, even the skyui team were simply going to make a newer version of their mod. would that mean free mods will all follow the older outdated skyui, Should that newer version have been done differently, been treated different from the other mods? A lot of these questions I don't have answers to and the ones I do I am not sure of. These are just my starting thoughts I want to hear everyone else's opinion on this providing it is constructive, I don't want this to be an us vs them thread, or why paid modding is good or bad, I want to see how both can work ideally for the free community, the mod authors, and for willing to pay community.

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244 are all replies on the same post. so true foster xbl

In response to post #24829394. #24829699 is also a reply to the same post. word.

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949 are all replies on the same post. no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

I have been one of the modders more vocal about the rights of the artists, and as a result I had taken down my humble retextures. I still feel this decision to remove paid mods was hugely flawed and that the potential for great modding was enormous as proven by the return of skyui team making better paid version and making a newer better moonpath to elseweyr. I also felt this event has proven that free modding and the nexus was never in any actual danger, while simultaneously proving that there was a large market that could have given real value to modding and more than a pat on the back and a nickel in the cup for real talented artists and programmers. I feel artists are constantly undervalued and I also feel this was possibly one of the grossest examples of artists devaluing their own work (something I deal with constantly). It is literally the reason why they are called starving artists, because they don't put value on their work and thus are never professional in their endeavors. It is also the real reason why I had more or less quit modding a long time ago, because like most people I got s#*! to do, I cant justify the time it would take to make the high poly versions of my armors and the rigging and everything else. I am still infuriated with some of the stuff I have heard from the more outspoken users, and admittedly I took down my mods in a fit of rage from their audacity, entitlement and outright arrogance. I did however keep reading, I read through a lot of comments these past 24 hours, it has made me reconsider a lot of things and I cant hurt the community the real community that I have helped and has helped me and that I would help more if I could. I still wont be making any of my armor mods until I have a real incentive to as I have work and a family but I wont hurt the community I love just because of a bunch of assholes. So anyways I am putting the retextures back up after this message.

In response to post #24808104. you hit the nail on the head bro, it is not right at all. The worst part of this is that the users don't even see their entitlement (do they ever) and just assume that form of creation must always be utterly worthless. Of course many of these users claiming Bethesda and valve are thieves for taking a huge risk and keeping modding alive in general (remember they really don't have to support modders and it only barely adds to their revenue stream while adding a buckton of headaches). well in an age where less and less game studios hire mod makers or even support mod development (that was really more of a 10+ years ago thing) and where artists work is devalued more and more artists like me need to seriously reconsider our involvement with communities that would further devalue our creative efforts while benefitting off of them, I mean lets not forget the reality here, the nexus mod site and its users benefit more directly from the content of mod authors more than Bethesda or valve does.

In response to post #24811984. #24812039, #24813429 are all replies on the same post. your wrong dude, the most popular mods through donations got max a couple hundred dollars in a few years, the paid mods made a thousand in a few days, the difference is huge the reward for modders is clear and the market is very real despite how cheap you and others might be. Would it create a separation between haves and have nots, yup just like dlcs, collectors editions and hell video games themselves. The fact that the entire opportunity was scrapped because a bunch of entitled loafers feel they wouldn't buy it so no one else should so they can keep getting free labor is utterly atrocious, and as far as the cut, basically they were essentially saying the mod authors or worth 25% of what they think which is pretty bad but understandable in business terms, and the community collectively shouted "NO you are worth NOTHING!"

In response to post #24810109. #24810954 is also a reply to the same post. honestly programmers do not feel the pain of artists. Artists work is constantly devalued in every arena because artists themselves provide their work for nothing and help foster cultures that take advantage of them. whereas for the most part computer programmers earn above 80k whereas art graduates are for the most part unemployed. There is a huge difference between the amount of free time programmers have and artists have as well as the realistic opportunity for success based on portfolio.

In response to post #24812719. #24813164 is also a reply to the same post. hmmm I am still fiery about the whole topic, but your reconsideration is making me reconsider taking my mods down lol. well I will mull it over is all I can say for now.

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969, #24804034, #24804529 are all replies on the same post. if you are looking for donations you are better off beggin on the side of the road. 100 000 downloads = 1 donation, a number of bums I give change to I know do better than that.

In response to post #24800594. #24801939, #24802404, #24803319, #24803379, #24803609, #24803719 are all replies on the same post. I get it dude you like free s#*!, just don't say Bethesda and steam taking 75% is unfair when you are in support of authors getting jack s#*!. That is like a regular business cut in this situation, slavery is people working for free being harassed by the privileged if it doesn't meet their expectations. Either way you can say I am throwing a tantrum but the truth is I have already had this realization like so many modders that grow up, you just cant afford to do this anymore, especially when it is definitively unappreciated. Money is value Period unless you guys are gonna be my friend, support me in a time of need, marry me I really couldn't care less about your endorsements, thanks or whatever the hell, it is all garbage and the likes are worthless. As is mod making in general. It has been finalized YOUR MODS ARE WORTHLESS says the community. Well alright then I can live with that, I kind of felt that way anyways and have a hard enough time justifying balancing my time modding between things that pay me and people who love me.

In response to post #24798859. #24798999, #24799109, #24799114, #24799789, #24800024, #24800839, #24802019, #24802639, #24802919, #24803084, #24803214, #24803324, #24803634 are all replies on the same post. very well said the modding community has just declared that the work of mod authors is utterly worthless and should forever be. To me that is not their right, sure they don't need to buy it but to say they cant sell it when Bethesda says they can to me is absurd and I really don't even want to support these people with my hobby. all of my modding in the past was personal as I do try and make money off of my 3d models and so it is against my own interest to spend time making them into free mods, but recently I got a little involved in the community and made 2 retextures based on ideas I had heard in the forums. I am taking them down as I really don't even want to support a community that definitively says my time is worthless, after that the thumbs ups and the endorsements become the hollow words of someone taking advantage of you. I had learned that lesson already with my artwork and I guess this is just a further aspect of growing up. I don't have time for people who don't value me. Even though I never would have charged for my retextures, not like I could as they used assets with permission, I am still removing them.

In response to post #24800594. #24801939, #24802404 are all replies on the same post. OiramX5 you support free s#*!, money is value plain and simple. You cannot talk about a 25% cut being awful for the modder when you support 0%

In response to post #24800994. #24801184 is also a reply to the same post. That is my exact sentiment gerggorypeccary, I didn't mind doing it for free, because frankly I didn't put much effort into modding what with actually trying to make a living off of my skills. It is a shame all of the talented authors who basically built the hobby we have come to enjoy are now relegated to nothing more than street performers now and forever, their time being labeled worthless by their so called fans. Literally money is value, its a lesson every artist has to go through, it is literally the difference between starving artist and professional. Some people might say that is greedy and talk about the illuminati, but even without a federal reserve or whatever people still gotta eat and trade their skills to do so. Artists sadly devalue themselves constantly, and so I try not to support anywhere that I feel takes advantage of those foolish and unknowing artists. Nexus I don't feel in any way took advantage of artists although it of course profits solely from the hard work of those artists free efforts, but I do feel that the community has by essentially saying they should not have the right to sell. Of course it is up to Bethesda to decide not to have paid mods, but not the consumers. I made a promise to myself along time ago that I would not do work where it is not valued be it a lack of appreciation from someone or money from a client. This lack of appreciation in all of my years as an artist I have never felt so greatly as have in these last few days. literally the marketplace for digital creatives is awfully narrow with few jobs and thousands of artists, this could have set a new precedence. Remember those companies you love to demonize are pretty much the companies that made your mods possible, in a world full of EA's valve and Bethesda are champions. Those authors that were greedy by coming back and making new perfected updates to their mods for a price built the hobby you are so entitled to a lot of them foolishly doing it for some fool dream of exposure. I am thankful now more than ever that I did not waste any more time on this hobby as I got better s#*! to do.

Relegating mod authors to a simple donations button regardless of the quality of their content to me is the same as demanding that a performing musician not have the right to try and promote his demo but instead be forced to being merely a street performer. Of course this is something that just came up, and until now every modder was fine working for free like so many musicians, writers, artists that disenfranchise themselves tirelessly by devaluing their own time and effort. The reason was of course because Bethesda had the right not to allow paid modding, however to me the consumers right is simply not to buy. As an artist I have had to learn the hard way many times that by working for free I was devaluing myself and artists everywhere and learned that you can only make money for your skills by putting a price on it. Artists everywhere are constantly used and taken advantage of through hollow promises of exposure and in all honesty it is their own fault. Previously I modded completely out of hobby and I uploaded very little as I could never justify the time spent to perfect a mod, as well as the fact that my 3d models that I have spent countless hours on are more valuable to me as my own art assets. After seeing the general feeling I cant help but feel insulted and disillusioned by the entire modding community.

In response to post #24794924. #24795654, #24797254, #24797654 are all replies on the same post. I couldn't agree more, The sad truth is that the reason there are starving artists is that they do s#*! for free. It is a poor catch 22 that artists fall into because of this illusion of "exposure" which is an utter croc. No artists simply does art, gets "exposure" and then gets a job, sorry but it really doesn't work like that. You have to put time into but most importantly VALUE on your artwork and find a market niche that you can earn from, and of those too few exist for creative people to utilize. Just ask the thousands of graphic designers working at Starbucks, just ask all of the illustrators whose art probably decorates your desktop background, they are unemployed messes either living with mom chasing a dream or basically working some other job wishing there was a way to be paid for their god given talent and passion. A perfect example of this trap that any illustrator will tell you, is drawing book covers and sometimes even whole comic books for the promise that once it is published they will reap the benefit. Of course publishers have their own artists and most writers know that, effectively getting a really good pitch to a publisher being hand drawn for free. Artists are taken advantage of all the time but more often than not they deserve it because they put zero value on their own work and as a result devalued a lot of art as a whole. I love modding but like every modder knows, after a point you just cant justify putting time in it, I have had a number of armors that I had been working on in my free time for years, but had never had the incentive to actually finish them, I can honestly say now I never will. This choice isn't just because of my disgust with the worst of the modding community, but because quite literally my armor designs are worth more to me to as an asset that I can use to create real sellable artwork and I do lose a the ability to do that when I upload my designs for free to an army of ungrateful trolls. I have learned the hard way as a starving artist that used to do s#*! for free that by doing so, I was devaluing my own life and that simply cant be maintained.

After all of this I know for sure I am done with modding, I had a number of armors that I wanted to finish and a couple of personal mods that I had thought about perfecting for the community but now I really so no reason to. Also I am taking down my retextures I really only uploaded those for a few people and they can always get it from me, I honestly feel disdain for the so called community of entitlement and their atrocious behavior these past days.

In response to post #24785374. I feel that kind of responsibility is required for something like this, and especially because it is valve and Bethesda taking the risk the onus should fall on the modder ensure their mod works properly as described (of course wont be able to be compatible with all mods) and has original work.

In response to post #24783529. #24783794, #24784034, #24784134, #24784384, #24784604, #24784779, #24785294 are all replies on the same post. I agree 100%. Although I feel the community pretty much just declared that the work of so many talented modders is (and should always be) worth absolutely nothing. This is a trend with how art in general is treated as pretty much every graphic designer/illustrator/writer will tell you. Like any form of entitlement/privilege, change is always met with hostility. I mean after all even the American civil war was about people feeling entitled to owning slaves. I am not trying to say modders are slaves by any means, just that entitlement always gets out of hand, and that the entitled rarely see or appreciate the real cost and work behind what they are receiving.

Wow, I must say, I feel the modding community collective came together to say once and for all to the modders of nexus and steam: YOUR WORK IS WORTH NOTHING! That is what money is after all, yknow VALUE. I was truly excited when I heard the news about the pay system. I have had a number of model armors that I had started that I simply hadn't completed because I couldn't justify the time taken to properly finish them as well as original armors that I modeled back in college and chose to keep personal because, well I felt the designs had value. The possibilities could have been endless and ultimately the pay ratio is the choice of the modder to accept and I would have gladly, what with a monetary reason to pursue my passion. To me a fair percentage would have been a 3 way split but for them to even venture into this scheme has proven to be a huge risk. Either way in a world full of starving creatives, this could have been a brilliant new venture that could have expanded modding exponentially, I know it would have encouraged me to, instead now I feel a kind of disdain for the modding community in general.

It would seem this is entirely a steam issue with updates, at least for me anyway, I didn't have to uninstall skse at all, I just had to logout log back in on steam and let it re update its mod list and it worked.

I have no idea, but I wonder if it is tattoo related.

I am having the same damn problem as Droxisplay, the orc just stand there aiming and I cant fire either.