GECK loading up any and all data in Data folder

[CountFuzzball]

Purr4me wrote in http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/926725-ugridstoload9-causes-massive-ctd-problems/page-3

 

The geck default loads up. and you will see just fallout alone ticked in the data to make a new mod, has bugs, or complains about things not right. Well, Remastered has the missing elements in it's bsa archive and the geck does not complain any more. thing is, you don't tick a BSA archive in the geck, it just needs to be present in the data folder. The same goes for the DLC's If it's there, then no complaints are seen. IF you add things into that folder, the geck WILL pick them up and load them in ram. So, no editing others mods with others mods data installed at all. all mod authors need to show what was used. Here in lies the problem. sharing is caring and some care not. the care not's do it their way and the heck with anyone else. So we have a variety of fun things to play with, only it's all the same things in different places eating up space.

 

 

Is there a rigorous method of checking this? Does this mean all my custom created esps contain path directories inside the esp that may or may not exist on another users' harddrive?

 

I'd hate to have to redo some mods I have intention of releasing, but the above has got me considering it, unless there's a way to cleanly remove that junk.

[prensa]

CountFuzzball - Hello!

"Does this mean all my custom created esps contain path directories inside the esp that may or may not exist on another users' harddrive?"

Simple answer, No.

Now I don't want to start something here, I don't know the full context of the clip you've quoted so I can't speak for it's original intention.

What I will address is that you seem worried that other bits of mods will somehow leap into your mod if they are in the Data folder when you're making a mod in GECK. Won't happen.

GECK will only use assets of the plugins that have been selected in the File - Data window.

"thing is, you don't tick a BSA archive in the geck, it just needs to be present in the data folder. "

It needs to be present in the Data folder AND referenced by the .esm/.esp that's ticked in the File - Data window in GECK.

You don't tell GECK to use .bsa's, that's true, you tell GECK which .esm/.esp's you want to use & they list what .bsa or loose files they use.

If you tick something in the File - Data window in GECK & it has a .bsa or loose files then those assets will be open to you & that ticked mod will be a master, a requierment, of your mod.

A .bsa is just a packaged archive of files, the same as loose files just bundled together.

People make mods all the time with the DLC's & umpteen other mods & files in, those other files are all ignored unless you've selected them in your mod or set their plugins as masters.

"Is there a rigorous method of checking this?"

Yes, use FO3Edit to take a look at your mod:

http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/637/?

With FO3Edit you can view every single change your mod makes, every single object you are referencing that, if custom, should have it's meshes & textures packaged with your mod.

Under "File Header" you'll even see a list of your mod's Masters, all the mods that are needed for yours to work.

This is what people do to make sure there are no "dirty" edits in their mods, that's edits to things they did not intend to change.

 

"I'd hate to have to redo some mods I have intention of releasing, but the above has got me considering it, unless there's a way to cleanly remove that junk."

 

Always check your mod with FO3Edit for the above mentioned dirty edits, that's considered good practice.

 

There's no need to worry about other mods that were in at the time of creating as long as you did not select them as masters.

Hope this helps!

Prensa

Edited June 12, 2013 by prensa

[Purr4me]

Purr4me wrote in http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/926725-ugridstoload9-causes-massive-ctd-problems/page-3

 

The geck default loads up. and you will see just fallout alone ticked in the data to make a new mod, has bugs, or complains about things not right. Well, Remastered has the missing elements in it's bsa archive and the geck does not complain any more. thing is, you don't tick a BSA archive in the geck, it just needs to be present in the data folder. The same goes for the DLC's If it's there, then no complaints are seen. IF you add things into that folder, the geck WILL pick them up and load them in ram. So, no editing others mods with others mods data installed at all. all mod authors need to show what was used. Here in lies the problem. sharing is caring and some care not. the care not's do it their way and the heck with anyone else. So we have a variety of fun things to play with, only it's all the same things in different places eating up space.

 

 

Is there a rigorous method of checking this? Does this mean all my custom created esps contain path directories inside the esp that may or may not exist on another users' harddrive?

I'd hate to have to redo some mods I have intention of releasing, but the above has got me considering it, unless there's a way to cleanly remove that junk.

Just follow the way the modders resources is laid out by chuck-steels mod found here on the nexus. His directions and the way the geck uses them are set up so the geck shuts up when compiling the data, these are lose files the geck picks up and NO, they are not ticked by anything, the engine calls them up as in source codes. the lay out is Root C:\meshs;, C:\textures....C:\sound.....c:\music <--Or of you wish to really get to a nitty gritty c:\xmusic. the game sits in a directory called fallout3 as this way " C:\falout3.......so root is the c: drive.

the bsa archive architecture is listed in the fomm utility, just open it up an browse any bsa archive, NOTE: here !!!!! is where you will see and understand the path testaments other mod authors make. here is their targets.

 

I want a weapon to use a mesh, but the mesh has to be a rewritten copy of the master file from the game or a brand new one to over write the original, so that means in what ever manner we chose, that new mesh weapon file is going to lay down right on top of the original path, it's source is not in that path, if it were, the default vanilla get presidence and nothing happens. (hammerheadBlack.nif) well it's not in the main games bsa but it does overwrite the original chineseriffleauto.nif < just an example.

Path:

• userGame\system1\Data\Meshes\weapons\2handautomatic\M16A1NewAssaultrifle.nif
• Bsa\meshes\weapons\2handed\Assaultrifle.nif

where as another mod will use the same source as the bsa here but place theirs in a folder of there calling , my favorite mod is AQFH, all it's assets are not contained in just it's folders, some overwrite others in default listings on the hard drive.

• meshes\AQFH\weapons\2handed\Assaultrifle.nif

so even though the weapon is in a different place, the esp calls that weapon from this source and tells it to overwrite the original.

• meshes\AQFH\weapons\2handed\Assaultrifle.nif
• Bsa\meshes\weapons\2handed\Assaultrifle.nif

Now we add on WMK, and FWE, and a few others to really get things rockin ! what a gigantic mess.

I seen one riffle duplicated 200 times in all manners and ways. I can also replace these weapons without an esp or esm file, Just drop the right ones into the right spot on the users game directory and bam ! your using my weapons.

• Florual over hauls. delete the esp and watch the magic happen.
• don't need too much, ? no problem, tell the engine to post whats in it by replacing the dead things with real live things. no mesh or textures .
• how about a junkyard game, all dead trees are not old cars, pick your color !, or a truck for a tree stump.
• Don't need any textures or mesh files. all in the bsa.
• these are examples.

the methods used are abundant, are not all the same, and it's willy nilly galore.BUT, the geck will pick up any extra data calling an item that points to any item listed in the bsa archive. if its a tree, and there is a texture sitting open that is not in the bsa but in its' path and not he same, and is belonging to another author, your mod will pick his tree texture .and if you upload your mod and do not have his tree texture with it ,nothing will show up, so you include the need for your mod to use another assets in order for yours to work. so what have you done by doing all of this? what if you are not aware your mod picked up his until you save your work, delete the directory and reinstall only the main game and find out?

 

Whoops? where my stuff? yeah. that's whats going on. so you need to reach out and ask to use or port their stuff so your stuff can work right.

you spend several day's weeks, months and find out all of this. ? pretty much a modding thing for sure.

chuck steel has no esp in his mod resources and it gets picked up as a resource. "Loose file". BY the geck.

As for "Junk", here is an example of 30 seconds work, If I change the name of any object listed in a mesh folder in the same file path as seen in the bsa, say like baseball bat too carhulk01. and list that as an overwrite. I won't have cars, it will pick up my file renames as such. or take a look at this in game. http://rapidshare.com/files/3410129916/Junkyard%20fallout.7z

over 7000 cars installed into fallout3, no mesh files or textures. But if I extract that very file and place it into the mesh folders labeled the same way the bsa is, archive-invalidate can turn it off and then on with one click and my baseball bat will be in place of those cars but you won't know where it's coming from. and if such files are laying in the data directory from other mods installed and you build yours? well you will end up using assets not of your own. there's the demo of how to place objects with out killing your self. My Treat.

 

Kitty,

Edited June 12, 2013 by Purr4me

[prensa]

Purr4me - Hello!

"these are lose files the geck picks up and NO, they are not ticked by anything,"

But they are, you select Fallout3.esm as a master when you create a mod in GECK as the minimum master needed.

Fallout 3.esm loads it's assets, either from the default .bsa's or any file that replaces those default items that's placed loose in your data folder.

If you drop a big new loose .nif called Technobabble.nif into your Data\Meshes then it will be ignored by Fallout 3.esm as it's not listed within it & thus alien to it.

". if its a tree, and there is a texture sitting open that is not in the bsa but in its' path and not he same, and is belonging to another author, your mod will pick his tree texture .and if you upload your mod and do not have his tree texture with it ,nothing will show up, so you include the need for your mod to use another assets in order for yours to work."

No, that's not how it works.

If you have a mod that replaces the default texture of say, a car & all it is is a replacement for the vanilla texture that's packed in the Fallout - Textures.bsa then you will see that replacement texture on cars in GECK while making your mod.

This is because a replacment texture is a loose file placed in the same path as the original one that's in the Fallout - Textures.bsa, loose files however take precedence over ones packed in .bsa's so the loose replacment is the one that gets used.

Your mod will not care or record the replacment texture though, you can test this by making your mod with the vanilla replacer texture in, closing GECK, removing the replacment texture & reload your mod.

All will be the same except the replacment texture will be gone & GECK will default back to the original in the .bsa. The Game will do the same.

If what you said was correct then anyone making a mod while using a vanilla texture replacer, like NMC, would end up with a mod that's full of broken textures when used by anyone without NMC.

That's clearly not true.

You'd only need the other modder's textures if you were using their models.

There seems to be some confusion over how loose files work as regards to replacing .bsa packed ones too.

A loose file intended to replace a vanilla asset in a .bsa MUST be placed in the same path as well as having the same name.

For instance I just released a mod with fixed doors for Point Lookout, the originals are packed in the
PointLookout - Main.bsa & the path of one of them is:

Meshes\DLC04\Dungeons\Mansion\dlc04mdoorbig01.nif

So my loose file needs to be in the Fallout 3 folder in the exact same path in order to replace the originals, thus:

Meshes\DLC04\Dungeons\Mansion\dlc04mdoorbig01.nif

Placing it anywhere else will result in the file being ignored & the default .bsa version being used unless an added .esp/.esm is used to make a call on it.

So the example you give:

meshes\AQFH\weapons\2handed\Assaultrifle.nif
Bsa\meshes\weapons\2handed\Assaultrifle.nif

Won't overwrite each other as you say, as they are not the same path.

One of those paths is in Meshes then a folder called AQFH then weapons then 2handed.

The other, the vanilla location, is in Meshes then weapons then 2handed.

Two different locations, effectively two different weapons that just happen to be called Assaultrifle.nif, so not replacing the other.

You could use an .esp/.esm to replace all instances of the vanilla & use your new weapon in that new path but I don't see how that applies to any of this.

"chuck steel has no esp in his mod resouces and it gets picked up as a resource. "Loose file". BY the geck."

Are you talking about "Chucks Havok Friendly nifs Modders Resource"? Chucksteel has several excellent modder's resources.

The default path for that is:

Fallout 3\Data\Meshes\Chucks Hovok Nif's

&

Fallout 3\Data\Meshes\Chucks Stacic Nif"s

Neither of which is an original game folder path, you're saying you have those items in your GECK with no .esp or .esm adding them in? How are they being set up as objects as that's got to be done with a plugin of some kind?

Unless you've placed them in a different path & renamed them to match vanilla objects as replacers, in which case that goes along with what I've said above, the GECK only loads what the selected plugins tell it too from .bsa or loose files if they match the .bsa's path.

All of this needlesly complicates the whole process & was the reason I was going to avoid answering this.

As I understand CountFuzzball's post, they are concerned that creating a mod with other mods installed will mean all other assets will get used somehow.

This is not the case, as I detail in my above post.

 

I've yet to see any evidence to the contrary, a quick peek at a mod with FO3Edit would show any changes.

Prensa

Edited June 12, 2013 by prensa

[Purr4me]

To Presna: good luck with the demo I just gave to you all. have fun ok. C ya.

kitty.

[prensa]

Purr4me - Hello!

"If I change the name of any object listed in a mesh folder in the same file path as seen in the bsa, say like baseball bat too carhulk01. and list that as an overwrite. I won't have cars, it will pick up my file renames as such."

Yes of course if you rename a baseball bat to carhulk01 & then place it loose in the path where carhulk01 is in the .bsa you'll replace the car with a bat in game.

No one's disputing that, it's the whole foundation to modding. You can replace existing items by matching their name & path. Modding 101.

"over 7000 cars installed into fallout3, no mesh files or textures."

Um, yes there are meshes & textures. All you've done is used an .esp to replace tree objects with cars.

The reason you have no meshes & textures is you're using the vanilla cars, so the textures & meshes will be in the end user's Fallout 3 installation, inside the .bsa's.

 

If you think you've done that without meshes & textures, I'm puzzled as top where you think the objects you see in game come from.

"and my baseball bat will be in place of those cars but you won't know where it's coming from"

I do know where it would come from, you just said you renamed & replaced the car with the bat model.

Not seeing the mystery here.

"and if such files are laying in the data directory from other mods installed and you build yours? well you will end up using assets not of your own. "

No you won't.

If you have loose files in your Data folder they will only be used in you mod if they are called on by your mod or it's masters. Same goes for .bsa's.

If the loose file is a replacer for a vanilla item, say a tartan teddy bear, it will replace that item, the teddy bear.

If someone else uses your mod without that tartan teddy bear replacer they will simply see the default teddy bear item in it's stead.

How can assets leap into another mod? Loose files would have to be gathered up & packaged with your mod. For them to do anything in game they would have to be referenced by your mod's .esm or .esp or be vanilla replacers.

If anything was in a mod that was not meant to be there it would show up in FO3Edit, hence my advice to check for dirty edits.

I bet almost all the mods on the Nexus were made with other mods installed at the time.

Seeing how your mod plays with others is actually a good thing.

 

I did not post to get into an argument, I merely wanted to assure CountFuzzball that they do not have to redo all their mods because of those spurious claims.

 

If you have a theory about a potential bug, great! Why not gather proof & prove it's existance, if you can demonstrate that there's a genuine issue with making a mod while other mods are installed I'll be the first to applaud.

 

Prensa

Edited June 12, 2013 by prensa

[Purr4me]

 

Um, yes there are meshes & textures. All you've done is used an .esp to replace tree objects with cars.

The reason you have no meshes & textures is you're using the vanilla cars, so the textures & meshes will be in the end user's Fallout 3 installation, inside the .bsa's

• Anchorage - Main.bsa (519 MB (545,219,034 bytes)
• BrokenSteel - Main.bsa (503 MB (528,150,080 bytes)
• Fallout - Meshes.bsa (713 MB (748,571,387 bytes)
• Fallout - Misc.bsa (1.70 MB (1,793,843 bytes)
• Fallout - Textures.bsa (1.04 GB (1,120,257,480 bytes)
• PointLookout - Main.bsa (552 MB (578,858,213 bytes)
• ThePitt - Main.bsa (617 MB (647,948,003 bytes)
• Zeta - Main.bsa (472 MB (495,761,599 bytes)

A grand total of (4.34 GB (4,666,559,639 bytes) as the source, compacted inside archives, "bsa's"

Place about 150 large mods, really big ones, replacer mods into the game, you can end up with over 40 gigs of data, most of it is duplicated data from the source. this assessment does not include sound files. just texture and mesh source files.

 

Now. Chuck steels data. it's a source, used when dealing with lod generations, that very data is picked up and injected into the mod you make. You don't upload his source files with your esp or esm file. The geck finds and uses it. With out that data Getting picked up by the geck, it will not compile the LOD correctly, it will leave gaps in the code. is that not correct? error messages and GECK complaints of mismatched size and missing tga data. Is that not also correct?

 

I say this as I see this and have dealt with this for over 2 years now. But, (...."spurious claims......) that <----- irks me to no end.

 

If it's so "spurious claims.", then there is no need for chucks data at all, now is there. any mods extra data will be picked up by the geck if it is in that data folder. If I make a set of blank resource data to fill in the gaps for lod Generation and the files have null written into said files to equal the files size requirements, you will have large , very large open gaps all over the place in game just from the data written into the esp or esm made in this way. Again, lose files, resource files placed there as a replacer instructions.

 

Our team has in fact written a mod. and it works, has been tested too. Not uploaded here. not going to upload it here. what it does is it's a very small collection of mesh files that replaces 100% of the instructions made By a mod from a team member and another one too.

 

Here is the problem with this kind of file. there are those that will abuse it and do things without revealing it. How ever. the method is a cure for the problems found in deleting things in game files.

 

Now. if there are bad textures and you want to not have that file render but the game engine needs it to render or at least be there, we use a null statement in a mesh file to that texture to turn it off. it's still there and there is no esp calling it, and this is a lose file, which a esp can call on or call on that texture.

 

If the mod being made calls on a texture for his purpose to show up, and an author have made null statements in their mesh files residing in the data directory, that mesh file not being called will overrule the new mods data regardless of how you force the issue.

 

I gave you a demo. use it. cancel out the LOD's of those trees without deleting them. you can't even call those items in the geck or fo3edit.

Near the citadel, the keybridge section where the raiders are hanging out. it has a distant LOD that can not be called by anything in the geck. the data is there and you can extract them from the bsa. but, no matter what you do, these types will always render. the parts are there without archways, a solid wall instead. to turn of the distant LOD loading is unseeing ugrids for these mesh files and the texture calls. *lod_.nif can not be used in lose format.

 

That's just an example. I can now remove those using a new method. this requires calls made from an esp file and mesh files combined t otell the textures not to show them selves. It beats the hard code problems.

If you have a theory about a potential bug, great! Why not gather proof & prove it's existance, if you can demonstrate that there's a genuine issue with making a mod while other mods are installed I'll be the first to applaud.

 

 

That was not necessary. it's indignant and demeaning. Your right. bad place to post and the wrong subject too.

Kitty.

[prensa]

Purr4me - Hello!

If you read my original post, that was meant for & intended to help CountFuzzball, you will see I did not wish to pick a fight with anyone:

"Now I don't want to start something here, I don't know the full context of the clip you've quoted so I can't speak for it's original intention."

My advice was that CountFuzzball did not need to redo their mods just because they had been made while other mods were installed.

I stick by that advice, nothing has been posted here to prove otherwise.

I strenuously avoided critisising the advice that had led CountFuzzball to that conclusion & concentrated on giving advice backed up with facts & devoid of technobabble.

"(...."spurious claims......) that <----- irks me to no end."

Spurious = (of a line of reasoning) Apparently but not actually valid: "this spurious reasoning results in nonsense"."

I stand by my description, I've repeatedly asked you questions on your claims & you've repeatedly avoided them.

I backed up everything I've said with clearly understandable & repeatable reasonings.

I've been open to having you prove your claim that mods will gather all files in the Data folder at the time of making thus adding others unwanted content to mods.

I don't claim to know everything but I do need clearly understandable proof before I'll believe something.

If this is as big a problem as you say it is should be demonstratable.

"I gave you a demo. use it."

I looked at it & replied in my previous post, refuting your claims that it proves that making mods while other mods are installed causes issues. It does not, it simply replaces trees with cars.

"it's indignant and demeaning."

I've remained calm throughout & polite. I've stuck to facts & avoided obfuscations. I was not being sarcastic when I stated I'd be the first to applaud you if you proved this bug exists, I've always backed serious works on fixing genuine bugs in Fallout 3.

My original post was intended to help someone, my second pointed out several flaws in your argument against my first (which I notice you sidestepped). At no point have I demeaned anyone.

Perhaps you should reread my first post & I think you will clearly see it contains no offence to you.

I think it best we draw a line under this, it has ceased to be of use to anyone.

Prensa

[CountFuzzball]

Prensa and Purr4me, Thank you both for your detailed replies.

 

As far I can make out here, here's my take on the above information:

1. If you have a path in the Fallout3/Data folder to a file that matches the internal .bsa pathname and have archive invalidation invalidated, then the loose file will take precedence and overwrite the vanilla object.

2. If the path is different, you can have two different meshes called assaultrifle.nif as loose files that won't conflict or overwrite one another, but can overwrite vanilla objects if you change the 10mm pistol to an assaultrifle.nif mesh therefore the mod author needs to supply the .nif or information on where to get it, as only the pathname gets saved in the esp file of the GECK, I assume?

 

So, as only the pathname gets saved (which moves it from the .bsa file out onto the local file hierarchy), *THAT* is what can cause problems - the GECK trying to find files on the local filesystem that matches vanilla .bsa pathnames and it just gives up, therefore huge big red triangle for a mesh.

 

So while that's one problem, the other problem is with LOD generation, if what you're saying is right, Purr4me, Chuck's lod files also get picked up by the LOD generation somehow, if the user has his mod installed when they load the GECK up, with the LOD pathnames now pointing to chuck's LOD files.

 

Yes, that is problematic, but it seems fairly small beans in comparision to the statement of "IF you add things into that folder, the geck WILL pick them up and load them in ram. So, no editing others mods with others mods data installed at all.", which is fairly all-encompassing. At least I took it to mean *everything*.

 

If they're a .bsa or LOD and you start using components from the .bsa, I can see, if the above is correct, how that would start posing a fairly major problem. But if they're all loose files and not being referenced by the particular .esp (explicityly by the mod author) you're creating, then I kinda fail to see how it's an issue.