Mod in planning - looking for input

[Leadpipe]

OK, before I go into this, I have to preface that I enjoyed Fallout 3 considerably. I wouldn't be in this forum and looking to mod it if I didn't.

 

However, the game is far from perfect. The art direction and ambiance is superb, as well as several other aspects of the game for which it is winning all sorts of awards (congrats, Bethesda!), but after a few playthroughs other elements felt a bit phoned in to me. Not content to sit and female dog, I set myself to learning the mod tools and trying my hand at paying some closer attention to these aspects.

 

Particularly, the element of morality never really felt as complex as I would have liked. Except for the part in Oasis, I don't think any mission gave me pause as to which outcome would be good, bad, or otherwise (but honestly, could I have killed Harold?). Perhaps it was different for you as you played through it. If so, please tell me about it in a response below.

 

Beyond that, the player has no real investment in the outcome of virtually any quest. In very short order, the player's needs are met and exceeded. In my few playthoughs on various difficulties, I never once was want of health, ammo, or money. This is not to pat myself on the back, but to illustrate that I felt a distinct lack of tension or challenge. It mattered little to me whether the ghouls lived in Tenpenny Tower or not. My only impetus was exploration and experimentation. Sort of a "what happens when..." mentality.

 

That is not to say that it wasn't fun. The point, though, is that it undermines any incentive to drive or compel the player to do other than he is already so.

 

The point of this thread is not to criticize Fallout 3 on its failings, but to provide background for what I'm attempting: I want to create a mod with a few quests where the good/bad/neutral answers are not obvious if at all. Furthermore, I want the player to have an interest in the outcome of the quest, particularly an interest that runs contrary to one or many of the other parties involved.

 

I've got some ideas about the situation that I'd like to set up, but I'm keeping mum about them because it's not germane to the conversation at this point and they're malleable to fit the needs of the moral complexity aspect. No, it's the player's motivation that I'm stuck on. I having a hard time thinking of any carrot to dangle in front of the player that would be compelling - that is to say a need that can't be easily fulfilled via other means.

 

The only thing that I can think of is to find the script that removes a player's inventory and increase the lethality of NPC weapons, but I think that's a bit drastic.

 

So, to get to the point, finally, I have to ask the community here as players a few questions:

 

1) Were there any points in the game (or mods that I may not have gotten through yet) that really (genuinely) caused you concern as to the outcome? Were there points where it wasn't clear what the right answer was? Any moral dilemmas that I might have missed?

 

2) What would compel you, as a player, to pursue a quest in a particular way? What incentive could I offer to sway a player differently.

 

3) How would you respond to a mod that removed your equipment (without returning it)? I don't know how I'd feel about it, even if I knew what the person was trying to accomplish.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to this, and please be patient. I realize this is going to be an ambitious project, so even if I find my way to its finish, it'll likely take a long time.

[cscottydont]

1) I haven't finished all the quests in F3 yet but I can honestly say I never ran in to any moral dilemmas. The choices (as in so many games unfortunately) were all very black or white. The outcome of the choices was usually glaringly obvious (choose this you'll lose rep/karma, this one you'll gain rep/karma, etc). I think adding some moral ambiguity to the game is an excellent idea.

 

2) I'd like to say the sheer roleplaying-ness of it. I'm always up for a good/compelling story. Although it probably wouldn't hurt to throw in a couple shiny things too.

 

3) It really would depend on how far into the game I was. I'm usually a packrat in these types of games and after a while I have a considerable amount of junk. Early in the game-wouldn't mind it so much. Late in the game-would probably reload to before it happened, stash all my stuff somewhere, and then do the quest.

[peterjwest]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, potentially looking to make some simple mods to improve gameplay and role-playing. I'm also very interested in game design and planning to get into the game industry once I graduate from uni.

 

In answer to your questions:

1) Although I haven't played through the whole game yet, I have faced a few moral dilemmas, one of which I still haven't resolved:

a) In Ardale I found it difficult what to do about the cannibals particularly since there were children involved. However after killing the parents the children and grandfather seemed to feel no remorse. It was all a bit too simple in the end, like the developers were willing me to think that killing the parents is the 'correct' solution.

b) In the Tenpenny Tower quest I still haven't decided what to do, there seems to be no satisfactory solution to finish the quest while preserving the lives of the ghouls and people. The best solution seems to be not to finish the quest.

 

2) I'm not quite sure what you mean. I'll assume you are talking about an incentive that could persuade me to move towards a particular outcome of the quest. For a start I just don't feel right doing 'very bad' things. I won't ever murder a person (or even a robot) for selfish reasons. The situation has to be morally grey for me to even consider alternative options. In that situation the best way to sway me would be with a special item that can be found through no other means. This item could be a functional item, but I could also be swayed by a useless collectable! (and this is less likely to unbalance the game)

 

3) If a mod removed all my equipment I would almost certainly load before the quest, dump everything somewhere secure and then retry the quest. I think most players will have invested far too much time in the game to be willing to lose all their cool special items and money. However if there was a scenario where I would have to fight through a group of enemies and then lose all my equipment to enter a certain area (and I would have a chance to stash special items beforehand), I would be willing to forsake some common armour, weapons and ammunition to get to that area.

 

Hope this helps.

[zip2k4]

after finishing most quests in the game and got bored....

 

this is what i came up with :)

 

1. the only answer to this is in the mod i made for realism, it's on beta version for fallout3nexus

but i got the version 1.0 in my laptop hehe, it really really frustated me sort of because it made

the NPCs to be more or less at the same par with any character [just like in real world] that is why

i tend to be nice and not let the brotherhood chase me down with miniguns that can kill me in less than

1 second. otherwise if no mods are involved i'd say tenpenny, i mean roy's a male without a father! helped him and there u go

great job roy, great job....

 

2. well basically if i can survive thru it, i mean i've modded a lot of values in the game, i personally like

if people fight against unbelievable odds and get to try and win! but, yea the harder it gets the more fun it is

for me :D

 

3. give me a gun after i drop all my stuff and i'm good to go :)

[sumoftwosins]

I've went through every possible side quest and some. I've played most of the game several times through enough to try it a different way then I did before. I feel that in most of the bigger quests there is decent incentive for the player. However, the consequences aren't always that bad.

 

Most games I play that allow you to make decisions that are good or evil, I always tend to lean towards good. I guess that is the type of person I am.

 

During the quest "Strictly Business" I really didn't have a problem enslaving the specific people they wanted. The incentive was good: I could make a decent amount of caps and it allowed me access into Paradise Falls. However there really wasn't any opposing incentive not to enslave those people other than the moral concept behind it.

 

The Quest Power of the Atom, to me, had the most consequence down the road. It effected your Father's dialog and his perspective of you.

 

My theory of most of the quests that have moral decisions and rewards are to help the player progress to the ending. So if removing rewards such as caps or special items might have some negative effect towards the entire game.

 

I'm on the fence as far as the mod goes.

[jsnider193]

The biggest issue is that most of the side areas/quests are basically not fleshed out. Almost all the vaults are go in kill everything .. e.g. 108. Tenpenny, no matter what do the outcome is dumb ... if you found the ghoul underground so why can you not get the ghouls to migrate there??? Neutral solutions seem to be few or non-existent. The rewards for most quests (in my view) are trivial .. i do them for the collateral collection capability (loot).

 

The latter stages of the game get sort of mindless as the quests become barren ... why doesn't the radio guy come up with more in the game, after all isn't he in touch with the broadcasts (seems up on your doings ... so why not send you goals actions over the radio).

 

Still, I enjoy the game but so much is missing and seems that many NPCs should have quests but don't .

[Leadpipe]

Wow, I can't believe it's been so long since I came here to update on this.

 

Here's where it stands: I've got a design document, which is admittedly vague in some areas. I know that when I go to approach those parts, I'll have to do some poking through other levels to see how certain scripted events were handled. This will likely result in a long period of trial/error as I try to make this work out. Longer yet as this is the sort of project that I do between other, non-game related projects.

 

In any case, the first step is developing some real estate for the comings and goings of this mod. Depending on how intricate I get into making the settlement, it looks like I'll need one exterior and at least three interiors - of which, I'm still working on the first one. I'm currently putting the finishing touches on the lighting before I start a clutter pass.

 

There are three main aesthetics I'm working toward in the level designs: Salvage, reconstruction, and desert. It's been 200 years since the bombs, and I would expect some communities to have recovered a bit better. Food supplies, I imagine, would be a major problem and restriction on human population recovery, as it would be dependent on clean or relatively clean sources of water, which is what the whole main quest is kinda about (even if it never really gets past the whole "wow, my dad is Liam Neeson" part of it).

 

In any case, I would find it hard to believe that humanity would still be living in the ruins of a burned-out civilization after 200 years. There would have to have been some effort to rebuild a bit beyond the junktown aesthetic of Megaton. That's going to be the leading aesthetic behind the settlement I'm calling Perryman. Perryman is a geographically isolated part of the wasteland (which means you won't be walking overland to get there) which has come into its own type of prosperity. This has allowed the population to rebuild a bit without constant fear of outside interlopers trying to rob them of all their riches and flesh, and so the settlement will have a fairly large population and (I hope) a fairly sophisticated social structure. That last part may be beyond my abilities, but it'll be worth a shot.

 

The main quest I've got outlined involves a conflict between a BoS scouting patrol and Perryman, with a group of smugglers and perhaps other groups with their own interests in the outcome. I'm still trying to think of ways that each party might persuade or coerce the player to work toward their ends, as well as an outcome(s) that benefits only the player. Suggestions are welcome.

 

From what I've read, though, The Pitt touches on a few of the things I've had in mind. I guess that means this whole mod will be subject to change depending on how close that and this turn out to be.

 

I don't know if that's clear at all, so if this piques anyone's interest and they'd like to know more, ask away! I'll try to answer without spoiling it. As always, suggestions are welcome.