The Dragon Misnomer

[rattlemebones]

If one were too pay attention to the creatures that Bethesda says are Dragons they would notice that whilst they have back legs, but they are missing front legs. That would actually make them Wyverns instead of Dragons.

[Lachdonin]

If you read the design notes which were included in the collectors artbook, they actually mention this. It was mostly because when the first depicted fill fledged Dragons, it was in Redguard, and at the time Wyvern style dragons were all the rage.

 

But that's not really the point... The point is, what they are called in OUR world is irrelevant. Mer don't really look like your classical Elf, now do they? The in-universe name doesn't necessarily always sync up with what it's known as in circles familiar with classical and medieval mythology.

 

So yes, to US, they are Wyverns. To Nords, Dunmer, Imperials and everyone else within the TES universe, they are Dragons.

[Urtel]

They do have front legs, that are wings, sir.

Your statement is true only when you mean a mythological kind of creature, which is supposed to have both 4 legs and wings.

But i might say, that even not all dragon-kind creatures from legends had that number of limbs. So your statement has no reason.

Its up to devs, how the creatures look. With the same reason you can say, that orcs should be big and stupid, and talk like hulk. No sense.

[Lachdonin]

Since you appear to be touchy about this, based on your tag... I feel i should point out that the TES Dragons are not actually Wyverns either. Wyverns were more than just 4 limbed flying reptiles, they were almost always depicted as having scorpion stingers or some type of poisonous barb on their tails. They also did not have anything which would, today, be called a Breath Weapon.

 

The TES creatures lack stingers, and have Breath Weapons. Thus, they cannot be Wyverns either.

 

Still, the whole argument is absurd at best, because the distinction between Dragon and Wyvern is tenuous, and only develops during the middle ages. Earlier depictions of what are classed as 'dragons' date back (in the middle east) to a about 6000 BCE, and are depicted as only having 2 legs. These creatures were the monstrous offspring of Tiamat (also known as the Mother of Dragons). Then of course you have Indian and Asian dragons... And Mesoamerican Dragons...

 

Fact is, 'Dragon' is a catch-all for any large, flying reptile. Because of that, a Wyvern can be rightly considered to be a TYPE of Dragon.

[rattlemebones]

No, Dragons and Wyverns are different creatures.

 

I noticed a logical fallacy, you want to define a Dragon as a large flying reptile. The Komodo Dragon fits two adjectives, not only is it a reptile but it is also large. Hmm, it seems that the Komodo Dragon can't fly, therefore it is a Komodo and not a Komodo Dragon. Also, since only insects tend to have stingers, and since your Wyvern is a reptile, there's no dice that they could possibly have stingers. It would seem that the Thu'um is magical in property and not biological. As for having a breath weapon we could just hand wave that to the fact that Wyverns are magically disconnected. Although, I'm sure utterly horrible breath can be considered a weapon. As for saying that Dragons tended to look different depending on where you are, you said that there are subgroups of Dragons. Even today we are finding species of plants and animals lumped with other species, so how is that argument absurd. The reason is, Technological Advancement. I'm 99% sure that they had better in the Middle Ages then earlier ages. Thank you for the history lesson (which I may or may not have yawned at).

 

Personally, I believe that your the touchy one. Now with that, I say good day

[TenderHooligan]

Oh boy.

 

Bethesda's dwarves are actually elves and their dragons are wyverns. So what? It's their world and they can't really be wrong with naming things within the game-world.

[Lachdonin]

No, Dragons and Wyverns are different creatures.

 

I noticed a logical fallacy, you want to define a Dragon as a large flying reptile. The Komodo Dragon fits two adjectives, not only is it a reptile but it is also large. Hmm, it seems that the Komodo Dragon can't fly, therefore it is a Komodo and not a Komodo Dragon. Also, since only insects tend to have stingers, and since your Wyvern is a reptile, there's no dice that they could possibly have stingers. It would seem that the Thu'um is magical in property and not biological. As for having a breath weapon we could just hand wave that to the fact that Wyverns are magically disconnected. Although, I'm sure utterly horrible breath can be considered a weapon. As for saying that Dragons tended to look different depending on where you are, you said that there are subgroups of Dragons. Even today we are finding species of plants and animals lumped with other species, so how is that argument absurd. The reason is, Technological Advancement. I'm 99% sure that they had better in the Middle Ages then earlier ages. Thank you for the history lesson (which I may or may not have yawned at).

 

Personally, I believe that your the touchy one. Now with that, I say good day

 

 

You... really are trying to stir the pot, aren't you?

 

First, let me just say, the Middle Ages did NOT have superior technology to earlier epochs. In fact, there was a notable regression in many areas during the early reign of Christianity in Europe. Complex machinery such as Orrerys disappeared in about 300CE, only to be recreated in the 17th century. Metal refining dropped dramatically. Agricultural techniques regressed by hundreds of years. The Enlightenment of the 16th and 17th centuries is thus called because of the rediscovery of lost technology, philosophies and knowledge, coming out of the 'Dark Ages'.

 

Second, and i restate, Real world comparisons and linguistic usage cannot be counted as law in relation to a fantasy universe. They could call it a Pufflehumph for all it matters, it wouldn't make a difference. In the TES universe, these are Dragons. In Warcraft, Wyverns are mammals. In the new Heroes universe Wyverns are called Po Kai. The simple fact is that the name is relevant only to the context in which it is used. You can't carry a name and it's associative image from one universe to another.

 

Third... You seem to be under the mistaken belief that Dragons, Wyverns, Unicorns, Leprechauns and other such mythical creatures are subject to the normal rules of evolution.They aren't. Even then, there ARE reptiles with stingers (mostly small Amazonian arboreals) . Hell, even some mammals have similar structures, such as the Platypus (not in its tail, mind you). Applying evolutionary logic to mythical creatures is almost as silly as transferring names universe-to-universe.

 

Fourth, the Komodo Dragon isn't a Dragon, it's a Monitor. Common usage is another major pitfall, one you have to be careful of. Take the word Theory for instance. 90% of what people call a 'theory' isn't, in fact, anything more than a Hypothesis. The meaning of a word tends to change dramatically based on the specific context in which it is used, even within the same universe. Take, for instance, the term Dragonborn in the TES universe. It has been used to describe Tiber Septim, the Nerevarine, and the Skyrim PC. With Tiber Septim and the Dovahkiin, it means the same thing. With the Nerevarine, however, it simply means that he/she was born in the Empire (thusly referred to as the Dragon). Because words are inherently symbolic, rather than literal, their meaning changes all the time, making context crucial.

 

And finally, i'm not the one who seems dedicated to making a crusade out of the use of a word in a fictional universe. I am, however, dedicated to the never ending war on poor information, lack of context and bad arguments.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Lachdonin

[rattlemebones]

Fine, you win. Not because of you and your arguments, but because I want to sleep. Either case, it doesn't matter what I say because you're one of those people who have to be right about anything. If you do however manage to find a dragon skeleton with two wings and two back legs, I'll let you call it dragon and I'll go along with it. (Hint: a good place to start is to first find Beowulf's tomb, for in Beowulf they pushed they dragon's remains into the sea close to where he was buried.) Until you find those remains, I'll still call Skyrim dragons Wyverns. Edited August 2, 2013 by rattlemebones

[TheVampireDante]

Arguing over a point that doesn't need argued, why does that sound familiar?

 

In the fictional reality TES is set in - they are Dragons, there has never been a four legged Dragon present in that setting (Even Daggerfall has small ones called Dragonlings). The image is not supposed to match up with the image of Dragons the real world has put forward, so your mention of Beowulf has no meaning whatsoever in the context of the games series.

 

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/creatures

 

No Wyverns - in TES they don't exist.

[Urtel]

rattlemebones, man, you are absolutely wrong even within your own theory.

One of your arguments was about evolution. So even considering that in fantasy universe evolution is same as in real world, you are wrong.

Because wings are actually front limbs you are looking for. Evolution.

Also, everyone is against your absurd arguments, which might mean smth, right?

We all gave numerous reasons, why you are wrong.

And still you say, we are those, who never give up, even if not right. Maybe its you?