Archer or Mage?

[Benbone]

Why not be both? Ive done such playthroughs and its pretty fun :)

[dweldy]

I've read a lot of posts from people that swear a pure mage is the most powerful build in the game. Maybe I just suck at it but it hasn't proven that way for me. All the spells and techniques they suggest aren't available at early stages and they don't elaborate on how to survive long enough to get to that point. In every RPG I play a sneaky archer as my go-to build. It works very well in Skyrim so that's what I used to finish the first time. Now I'd also like to play a mage just for something different but they are just too squishy without full armor and a sword. So I end up with a sword and board character. But it'll be a few years before another TES release so you may as well try them all.

[MidevalGuy]

I've read a lot of posts from people that swear a pure mage is the most powerful build in the game. Maybe I just suck at it but it hasn't proven that way for me. All the spells and techniques they suggest aren't available at early stages and they don't elaborate on how to survive long enough to get to that point. In every RPG I play a sneaky archer as my go-to build. It works very well in Skyrim so that's what I used to finish the first time. Now I'd also like to play a mage just for something different but they are just too squishy without full armor and a sword. So I end up with a sword and board character. But it'll be a few years before another TES release so you may as well try them all.

 

It's probably been said a billion times, but Mages are under-powered in Skyrim for a number of game design issues.

 

I know a lot of "L337" players who love to brag about running around naked killing things with one shot spells don't like me to say this, but it is documented fact how the game is designed and statistically constructed that results in pure mage characters getting the short end of the stick in Skyrim.

 

The most notable (and easily fixed with mods) is the strength of spells does not scale as the player levels up. In fact, they cost more and do less damage as Mages level up. In contrast, a warrior's damage out put (via weapons) increases as they level. Magic spells do not, or they increase so little it's negligible. This is probably why they included the impact (stagger lock) perk for dual casting as a way to "balance" it out, but that's still doesn't address the real problem with magic.

 

So, this is why a lot of new players (players who have never played a Mage) pump all their points into magicka because they need to build up their magicka pool since the spells inversely scale (cost more, but do less damage as you level up) without mods. This, of course, leaves them vulnerable on two fronts: A low health rating (100), or low stamina (100), which means they can't fall back on sword & board, or even archery with this kind of build.

 

Mages also are not able to craft their own gear like warriors unless you use mods like "Magecraft" that allow mages to craft special robes, staffs, scrolls & other magical equipment.

 

Pure Mages also have to grind more than any other class at early levels because they have to use potions, enchanting and fortify effects to boost their damage output/magicka reduction in order to be able to progress up the ranks as they level... Versus warriors who just go out into the world and automatically level up (along with their weapons) as they kill things. The other major negative side effect of this kind of grinding is mages are usually going from town to town, harvesting, creating, enchanting and selling various potions and items which means they are leveling up non-combat skills, too.

 

There is hope, however.

 

It's called being a Battlemage.

 

The Battlemage is the best of both worlds and can reap the benefits of being both a warrior and a mage at the same time as the name implies. This includes being an archer who uses both conventional bows and the Bound Bow as well.

 

Battlemages allows players to wear armor (heavy or light), so they aren't just one-shot by some low level bandit with an iron arrow. It also allows them to cross-train real combat skills so they can go out into the world and actually survive as they develop their magic skills simultaneously.

 

The best part about being a Battlemage is you can then easily transition into a pure mage who only wears robes once you have built up enough health, magicka and an arsenal of spells that do enough damage at higher levels, so you don't need to fall back on your combat skills.

[Lord Garon]

I've read a lot of posts from people that swear a pure mage is the most powerful build in the game. Maybe I just suck at it but it hasn't proven that way for me. All the spells and techniques they suggest aren't available at early stages and they don't elaborate on how to survive long enough to get to that point. In every RPG I play a sneaky archer as my go-to build. It works very well in Skyrim so that's what I used to finish the first time. Now I'd also like to play a mage just for something different but they are just too squishy without full armor and a sword. So I end up with a sword and board character. But it'll be a few years before another TES release so you may as well try them all.

 

There's lots of threads on mage vs warrior around, check out the Spoilers forum. I like different character types because they make you play the game differently. You know, make my favorite game "last" longer. I won't give any spoilers, but here's how I (basically) started my current character; a pure mage on Master difficulty.

 

1. Be a mage from the get-go. Pick a good race, high elf or Breton. Its pretty hard to die in Helgen, so get the robes and max your spell use there. (Don't level, see below) People argue with me about this one, but only take health for 10 levels or so. You need enough health to take at least one hit. On Legendary, EVERYTHING will 1-shot you. Once you get 200 health, alternate with magicka, but keep getting health. Its like improving your armor as a warrior.

 

2. Don't close with anything; back pedal, run, duck in-and-out, hide behind things, always move to keep bad guys away. Constant movement is probably the biggest secret to playing a mage. You ARE squishy; Its what makes playing a mage "different". Overcome the tendency to just stand and fight back; you will lose.

 

3. Get the first follower you come across or can afford. I've played without followers, but for a first time pure mage, you need one. Use them as a tank. Unlike a warrior type, you may no longer be the primary damage dealer, for a while, at least. Stay back, move around, and help out your follower. If they go down on a knee, be ready to run. Another aspect of being a mage.

 

4. Always train skills. This one is hard, but Skyrim isn't a race. Early on, you can level without casting a single spell, just speech skills will cause it. If you level immediately, you're behind 5 training skill levels each time. Now, you don't have to grind skills to 100 before level 5, just use the basic things the game makes available. The game certainly levels combat skills of your enemies, don't let it out pace you. This means going to Winterhold early on and doing random adventuring to find gold for training. No problem, Jarl Balgruuf will patiently wait for you. If you don't level, neither do your enemies. If you train every level, that's an extra 5 skill levels every time, not including actual skill increases in combat.

 

5. I disenchant everything I find or get to help enchanting. May not be the best idea, but it works for me. I lose a lot of money and possible advantage early on, but mages take long term planning. Pretty soon, you'll have lots of enchantments at your disposal (don't forget your follower's gear) and will be able to enchant better than what you find. Along those lines, give a soul trap weapon and soul gems to your follower if you are into enchanting; they will harvest a lot of souls for you. Enchanting daggers (and using alchemy) is a good way to make training money.

 

6. Get perks in whatever magic school you like. Don't ignore Restoration and Alteration; they have important perks like Recovery and Magic Resist. A basic ward will stop dragon shouts, but it takes Restoration perks to lower its cost. Careful with Destruction; AOE spells like Fireball and Ice Storm will damage, or possibly kill, your friends as well as enemies. Apprentice level spells are always good for focused and rapid fire attacks. A conjured weapon, especially a bow, is also good for a "Poison Delivery System"; that Paralysis or Stamina Regen poison just might be the key to stopping a boss bandit from 1-shotting your Atronachs and beating your follower to a pulp.

 

7. You'll know when its time to start kicking a$% and taking on the Deathlords and Dragon Priests. You won't be helping your follower so much as they are now helping you, if you need any help. Your squishy little noob mage can laugh at that Orc Boss and face Otar the Mad with confidence. Maybe not in a one-on-one, face-to-face fight, but hey, all is fair in love and war. And he can do it with nothing but the (enchanted) clothes on his back and a couple septims in his pocket.

[Lord Garon]

 

I've read a lot of posts from people that swear a pure mage is the most powerful build in the game. Maybe I just suck at it but it hasn't proven that way for me. All the spells and techniques they suggest aren't available at early stages and they don't elaborate on how to survive long enough to get to that point. In every RPG I play a sneaky archer as my go-to build. It works very well in Skyrim so that's what I used to finish the first time. Now I'd also like to play a mage just for something different but they are just too squishy without full armor and a sword. So I end up with a sword and board character. But it'll be a few years before another TES release so you may as well try them all.

 

It's probably been said a billion times, but Mages are under-powered in Skyrim for a number of game design issues.

 

<snip>

 

You're simply talking about DPS. Basic mage damage output cannot compete with a 2-H Orc or Dual-wielding thief. But its not supposed to. Its not about DPS or armor class. Its about magic. My mage (usually) can't do a 100 points damage per strike, but I can stand in front of dragon shouts all day long with just a basic ward spell, heal myself in combat without running out of potions, call friends to my aid, hit bad guys behind obstacles, fight close up or far away, etc, etc. Its apples and oranges to compare mages with warriors; they have different game mechanics for a reason. Mages don't NEED higher scaled spell damage. My most dominating character build at the time was the first pure mage I tried on Adept. Since he was my first mage, I was very careful; both in combat and in preparation. He turned out so OP that I started playing on higher difficulty levels after that. You don't have to grind anything to have fun with a mage. You just play like a mage and realize you don't count on armor or sheer DPS to win. Its about playstyle, not relative damage output. Hell, I think my Alchemist build could deal more DPS with poisons and a long bow than any other build I've made. A stealthy thief is played differently than a 2-H barbarian. A (pure) mage is played just as differently.

 

I don't know why it irks me to hear people say mages are underpowered. I guess I don't want new players to be dissuaded from trying out all sorts of different things in Skyrim. My mages don't run around naked, 1-shotting everything in sight. However, they do beat Skyrim on Legendary with no armor and no weapons except found daggers. Its difficult, no doubt about it, but mages are simply not "under-powered" in Skyrim. They just can't (usually) put out as much damage as other builds. However, you can get a mage to be a real fire breathing arcane powerhouse, even without mods. But that goes in the spoilers forum.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Lord Garon

[MidevalGuy]

 

 

You're simply talking about DPS. Basic mage damage output cannot compete with a 2-H Orc or Dual-wielding thief. But its not supposed to. Its not about DPS or armor class. Its about magic. My mage (usually) can't do a 100 points damage per strike, but I can stand in front of dragon shouts all day long with just a basic ward spell, heal myself in combat without running out of potions, call friends to my aid, hit bad guys behind obstacles, fight close up or far away, etc, etc. Its apples and oranges to compare mages with warriors; they have different game mechanics for a reason. Mages don't NEED higher scaled spell damage. My most dominating character build at the time was the first pure mage I tried on Adept. Since he was my first mage, I was very careful; both in combat and in preparation. He turned out so OP that I started playing on higher difficulty levels after that. You don't have to grind anything to have fun with a mage. You just play like a mage and realize you don't count on armor or sheer DPS to win. Its about playstyle, not relative damage output. Hell, I think my Alchemist build could deal more DPS with poisons and a long bow than any other build I've made. A stealthy thief is played differently than a 2-H barbarian. A (pure) mage is played just as differently.

 

I don't know why it irks me to hear people say mages are underpowered. I guess I don't want new players to be dissuaded from trying out all sorts of different things in Skyrim. My mages don't run around naked, 1-shotting everything in sight. However, they do beat Skyrim on Legendary with no armor and no weapons except found daggers. Its difficult, no doubt about it, but mages are simply not "under-powered" in Skyrim. They just can't (usually) put out as much damage as other builds. However, you can get a mage to be a real fire breathing arcane powerhouse, even without mods. But that goes in the spoilers forum.

 

You're right, but...

 

This still doesn't negate the magic system in vanilla Skyrm is busted because it doesn't scale properly, or very well relative to the costs involved with casting spells at higher levels. That's where mages are at a disadvantage due to bad (unbalanced?) game design and not the fault of the player.

 

I've done mages my last two play throughs, but I am experienced player who knows how to "work the system" -- Meaning, I know the vanilla system is busted, so on top of mods that add scaling I also do the enchanting/alchemy/crafting loop to get magicka costs reduction down to zero. I don't like having to resort to this, but even with a high mana pool, some of the higher level destruction, conjuration and alteration spells just cost too much relative to what they do. Again, that's part of glaring game imbalances that make playing a mage harder by default compared to other classes, but not because of lore reasons, or because mages are supposed to be more tactical. It's because of how the developers didn't balance the magic compared to other classes.

[RazorXE]

I have almost always been a Mage Archer in TES Games nothing says you cant be a ranged bow user and a close up destruction person.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Only mages can truly protect people from dragons. You can stun a dragon with a shock spell so fast it never gets a chance to bite or breathe on anyone. You can do this at a remarkably low level (if you don't run out of potions) -- all it takes is 40 skill points and 4 perks. To do it without potions and not run out of energy takes a lot more skill in many more disciplines, but you're the only one who can even do it at all.

 

To make matters even better pulling out a bow and using a paralysis-poisoned arrow is a choice for a mage. Your options are maximal. Shield-bash that ward-happy necro? Paralyze poison? Paralyze spell? Impact-Stun? Heal allies? Conjure your allies so you can go it alone? Fortify a Flame Cloak or throw ice storms through walls, floors, and ceilings? You have all kinds of options, options no other class has. I may not be a "Pure Mage" but I'd never give up being an impure one. Like all good magicians I know a whole lot of tricks.

[Gankaku]

Try both!

 

I love playing rangers. I love standing back and picking off from afar. I love sneaking and one-shotting a pin-point shot with my bow and arrows. I love poisoning my bow and watching the enemy wilt before he gets to me, dead from the poison. I love ranger gear (which can take a beating) and the array of bows and arrows. I really get into the RP of a ranger, like I always get an animal follower, and a modded house out in the wilderness.

 

Mages in this game to me are cool - I love their spells and stuff, but mages are easier to kill. Also the spells - they are widespread and steady. If your follower steps in front of your shock spell, the results may not always be good. The fire and shock just blasts everywhere and it's a sloppy, noisy kill. I like to see it happen with neatness and precision...which is why the ranger style fits me. But I have to say, that can also be an appealing aspect, just blasting everything away. It's full of action and color and the spells can be so powerful.

 

However, I think I'm gonna make a spellsword and try one out. The combination of mage spells plus armored fighting might be fun for me. Good luck and let us know what you pick. Take pictures for us!

Edited October 20, 2013 by Gankaku

[Gawin]

The reason why destruction seem weaker than archery or melee combat is because smithing and enchanting are so OP (let alone you can add alchemy to top it off). Even if you don't do any crafting exploits, smithing alone makes your weapons more powerful than any destruction spells, and enchanting your weapons with fire/frost/shock is like adding a destruction effect to your attacks. However, destruction does have the area of effect advantage. It's always cool to run towards a mass of people to do a fire storm, or spamming the Ice Storm spell through narrow hallways to hit lines of enemies. Mages are perfectly playable in Skyrim. In general, I found that any play style can survive Skyrim, even with the highest difficulty. So if you ask me, just play however you want and don't care about which build makes the most powerful character. And as a few people already said, there is nothing stopping you from playing an arcane archer!

 

Since you said you restarted the game a lot, you might want to give Skyrim Redone a try. The mod adds so much to the game, in particular it addressed many shortcomings to magic. Destruction damage actually scales with level. And a lot of cool spells have been added for other magic schools in a well balanced way (I especially love the curse spells from Restoration). Crafting are not as OP but are still cool to use. The difficulty is generally tougher but are more even throughout the game (in vanilla, the game is okay at the start, then gets ridiculously hard around mid levels but becomes easier and easier after level 40+).