Do you think Beth is getting lazy because of modders?

[pastafrola]

TES series is loosing features on every game, magic schools, weapons and armor categories...i don't know if it lazyness or the game industry is pushing to dumb down games.

[Lachdonin]

It's not so much dumbing down as removing the fluff. You don't need a unique skill for each of Axes, Maces and Swords. You can, however, have specialisations with those weapons (the Perk system is opportune for this). This is something that D&D really pioneered decades ago, and no one seems to have complained then, did they? The removal of Mysticism was, frankly, rather benign, as all the spells were rolled into schools where they were more appropriate (soul trap goes in Conjuration, where it should have been to begin with). I totally agree with Beth then they say that the Magical School of Mysticism was redundant.

 

People have a tendency to focus on what was lost and ignore what was gained. Between Oblivion and Skyrim, we lost Attributes, but gained the Perk system. We lost Spell Crafting and Enchanting, but gained a more streamlined and versatile combat system. We lost putty faces and gained actually interesting skeletal structures.

 

The Perk system in particular is a major innovation for The Elder Scrolls which does anything BUT dumb the game down. As it stands, without mods, it's impossible to gain every Perk, ensuring that no two characters have to be the same. The problem, of course, comes in balance, since most of those perks are next to useless. But this is something Bethesda has always suffered on. and can't be attributed to some new dynamic in gaming.

[Arthmoor]

They're not lazy, just hamstrung by management's stupidity in not ditching their garbage engine sooner and going with something genuinely new instead of lying to us all and claiming they were.

 

Frankly I think it's all going to change soon when Witcher 3 comes along and schools everyone in what a proper open world game looks like.

[Dark0ne]

Hopefully CDProjektRED can deliver on their toolkit too. I've told them enough times that waiting 18-24 months to release their toolkit is completely pointless if they're looking for a modding community to rival the Elder Scrolls.

[Sonicflame]

I personally prefer to plan characters in a more traditional RPG system. Mainly because i think that experimenting with numbers and different stats, and then learn how well they work in reality is an important feature of the RPG experience.

 

Even though the perk system is sleek and useful i think bethesda, in their eager to reach out to the masses of console focused casual players, forgot about the core values of TES and It's genre.

 

So would definitely preferred i Beth improved TES4 char. creation instead of switching to the perk system IMO

[AfroGamerNinja]

We lost putty faces and gained actually interesting skeletal structures.

 

Yeah, but we didn't needed an entire custom race just for our characters to have custom animations. All you needed was Mayu's Animation Overhaul, and you're on a roll.

Edited September 13, 2013 by AfroGamerNinja

[Arthmoor]

Hopefully CDProjektRED can deliver on their toolkit too. I've told them enough times that waiting 18-24 months to release their toolkit is completely pointless if they're looking for a modding community to rival the Elder Scrolls.

Hopefully they're listening then because 18-24 months is long enough for most people to shelve the game and move on to other things.

[MidevalGuy]

It's not so much dumbing down as removing the fluff.

 

People have a tendency to focus on what was lost and ignore what was gained.

 

I agree 100%.

 

Those rose colored glasses of nostalgia are powerful, aren't they? Maybe even more powerful than Beer Goggles :wink:

 

I understand people don't like change, but Skyrim is not a casual game, regardless of what the self-appointed game gurus proclaim.

 

Casual games do not have 400+ page official game guides. Casual games don't have entire internet wikis with hundreds of pages dedicated the the game itself, all the items, characters, locations, walkthroughs, etc. associated with the game and the lore it is built around. Casual games don't have infinite replay-ability beyond their core game mechanics like TES and Skyrim does. In other words...

 

-Angry Birds is a casual game!

 

-Fruit Ninja is a casual game!

 

Skyrim (and RPGs in general) is so far beyond a casual game it baffles me how somebody could proclaim it one unless they A) Don't know what they are talking about, or B) are just immature and insecure and need something to "hate" on to make themselves feel better about playing the game of choice I.E. Oblivion, Morrowind, etc.

 

Also, casual gamers aren't 12-year olds who are not sophisticated enough to play on PC. Casual gamers are actually older gamers with full-time jobs, families and real social lives & commitments outside of playing video games, but you would never know that because the term is now used as a pejorative against anybody who doesn't play, or like a game somebody else likes.

 

I apologize for the OT rant, but Skyrim seems to be a rallying point for all those who say games are getting dumber and dumber when that is clearly not the case, IMO.

 

As for the original question...

 

No.

 

I don't think Bethesda is getting lazy, but when making games for a mass audience they have to make it as accessible as possible. So, this meant shifting the focus onto something more people can easily get into in a Fantasy RPG and that is hack & slash, sword and shield play versus the more tactical "Glass Cannon" Mage, Archer or Thief characters who require a lot more planning and patience. This would not be a problem except the emphasis on warrior classes (and having to grind smithing to get the best gear) effected Skyrim's core game design to the point the magic system was completely broken upon release. Luckily, PC modders were able to correct this huge oversight, but if we're going to be perfectly honest the majority of "casual players" could probably care less and just want to go stab dragons in the face and make Bandits explode in balls of fire. There is nothing wrong with this, but it comes back to the issue of balance like another poster wrote above. Bethesda can't please everybody all the time, but they need to make sure TES VI has all character play styles functioning and balanced on release as well as improve things that need improving like a better combat system in general, etc.

[Lachdonin]

** Edit **

 

In rethinking things, and brainstorming with a friend, my stance has changed somewhat...

 

First, i hear many people saying that Stats are an inherent part of RPGs and without them immersion suffers, because you can't 'play the part' as specifically. And yes, they are an inherent component of typical RPGs. However, i would say that stats actually HURT immersion. Hear me out on this...

 

You're walking through a dungeon, and a rock blocks your path. In your average RPG, you look at your character sheet, see a Strength of 20, and think "hell yeah, i can move that rock". The stat is an arbitrary indicator of something you probably shouldn't know at all. How many of us can look at a rock large enough to block our path and instantly know they can move it? How many of us know when we crack open a text book we'll be smart enough to understand it?

 

Statistics are somewhat important, yes, but KNOWING them is one of the biggest breaks in immersion there is in an RPG. Skyrim still has stats, after a fashion, because it still requires the algorithms to determine damage, magicka cost and sneak rates. These are, rightly, almost entirely determined by your skill rather than your physical characteristics (i know some incredibly sneaky people who are lumbering and not even remotely agile).

 

Because of this, i am increasingly of the mind that being able to choose your stats, and to view them, is in fact making a game more geared towards a casual experience. For the true PRG experience, you shouldn't KNOW when you get stronger without trying something you couldn't do before. You shouldn't know you're smarter unless you comprehend something that didn't make sense before. You shouldn't know you're more agile or sneakier without trying to jump fences or not get caught.

 

In that way, Skyrim has, in fact, moved away from the casual experience in that regard. You're less able to micromanage your stats and have to rely more on experience and trying. It's still in an awkward middle ground between a truly immerse RPG experience and the old method of forced detachment, but IMO it's a step in the right direction.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Lachdonin

[MidevalGuy]

 

Because of this, i am increasingly of the mind that being able to choose your stats, and to view them, is in fact making a game more geared towards a casual experience. For the true PRG experience, you shouldn't KNOW when you get stronger without trying something you couldn't do before. You shouldn't know you're smarter unless you comprehend something that didn't make sense before. You shouldn't know you're more agile or sneakier without trying to jump fences or not get caught.

 

In that way, Skyrim has, in fact, moved away from the casual experience in that regard. You're less able to micromanage your stats and have to rely more on experience and trying. It's still in an awkward middle ground between a truly immerse RPG experience and the old method of forced detachment, but IMO it's a step in the right direction.

 

This is something I touched on in another thread about how RPGs (as a genre) seem to be stagnating compared to other games because many of them are still using old school methods that define them as RPGs, ironically.

 

Stats and leveling up is a defining characteristic of the genre, but how these elements are executed and even communicated to the player is still stuck in the days of table top D&D for a lot of RPGs. My guess is Bethesda knew this and is at least trying to make more modern RPGs where stats and leveling are still integral part of the game play, but streamlining and making it so stats and leveling a.k.a. power gaming isn't the only thing players have to be concerned with, IMO.

 

I don't want to play a spread sheet when I play a video game. This goes double for an RPG. I still want to level up and build the character I want, but I want to do it in the most painless way possible. This is why I use mods like SPERG that put the emphasis back on just playing the game and not meta-gaming a spread sheet. For example, run around in heavy armor and your heavy armor skill increases slightly. Become proficient with bows and you gain a Hunter's Insight that makes woodland characters less hostile toward you. This system is logical and gives logical perks and rewards, but most of all it puts the emphasis on just playing the game versus having to obsess about every little stat and skill point that may, or may not even effect your current character build. This is the part I think a lot of people are confused about and use to claim Skyrim is "dumbed down". Making something accessible and/or elimiating clutter is not dumbing down. It's streamlining and streamlining is not inherently bad if it is done in moderation... Which I believe they did very well in Skyrim.

 

Where I think Bethesda is lazy is with the melee combat.

 

This is a core game mechanic that needs a serious overhaul, IMO.

 

I'm not asking for hardcore realism like some of the PC mods provide, but something that feels more weighted and requires more skill (block timing, perrying, etc.) than what we currently have. This is another thing detractors use to proclaim "those filthy casual (console) gamers caused TES to be dumbed down" when in fact melee combat in ALL The Elder Scrolls games has been a means to a method (leveling up) more than the main attraction.