Assistance from the Community for a Newbie

[MollyThunderbreeze]

Hi all, I am new to the Nexus forum and new to included game engines (like the toolkit of NWN2, or the creation kit of Skyrim). I was directed here from the Microsoft site after encountering a string error while installing the NWN2 program. Here is my delima and why I am asking for your assistance. My goals are pretty simple: Design a semester of lesson plans for a class in game design using the an included game engine from a popular game, then produce a book version to be used in the classroom. Something similiar would be "Quests: Design, Theory, and History in Games and Narratives" by Jeff Howard. In his book, he suggested both the NWN2 took kit and the Elder Scrolls creation kit. Mr. Howard noted that the toolkit was easier to learn, but the creation kit was more powerful (a bit on the word powerful later).

 

Here is my questions for the community (links to posts within the forum where the questions have already been addressed would be most helpfu):

 

1. Considering the existing documentation available for the NWN2 toolset, it appears to be my best choice. However, with the initial issues I encountered loading and using this toolset in the Vista O/S, I have concerns for it being a good choice to base a book on that will be published in 3-5 years. Rumors of unavailability for those willing to host mods has also made this an undesirable choice because it would kill the number of active users of the toolkit. In other words, the technology of the toolkit may be just too old for my purposes.

 

2. I noticed within the forum there are quite a few tutorials for the creation kit, and what appears to be a very active user base within the Skyrim creation kit forum area. The NWN2 toolkit area does not seem as active, any reasons why this is the case?

 

3. Powerful - Often the word powerful in computer-eze translates to a program doing more for you, and the creative mind is often left scarmbling to work around what the program thought you wanted. Is this the case with the Skyrim creation kit? How powerful is the creation kit? Can a student design his own creation of an RPG style of game, from the world design, to NPC design, down to defined keystrokes for movement and actions within that world (Bethesda said yes on this last one).

 

4. Due to the 'out of date' issues of the NWN2 toolkit, I am leaning in the direction of the Skyrim creation kit. Any thoughts on comparing these two would be appreciated. Frankly, will any kit survive the 3-5 years required for publication of a technical book. I think my biggest problem is the ever dynamic Windows O/S which often renders these resources useless.

 

5. I had read some complaints over issues about the Skyrim vs. Morrowind kits (creation kit vs. construction set). Any thoughts or links to discussions about this issue would be welcomed.

 

I am estimating about one month with the game itself, then moving into mod creation for potential lesson plan creation. Any feedback or thoughts regarding the above concerns would be greatly appreciated.

 

P.S. When I went into the local GameStop to buy this, I was malled by Skyrim fans. Oh this is a L...O...N....G game, said one customer. Another chimed in, "It is so big that by the time I got back to it, I forgot where I left off and couldnt figure out how to start again (this in my mind is poor game design, but that is totally off the subject of this post). Skyrim appears to be THE premier game, but not the most played. It was like no one in the 3 GameStops I went to (to get the game for PC, the tome of a guide, and a game controller) had the guts to say, "the emperor has no clothes." Funny, not one person said it was fun.

 

EDIT: Found Bben's forum that looks most helpful. Thank you for creating it Bben!

Edited October 5, 2013 by MollyThunderbreeze

[Oubliette]

*sigh*

 

Welcome to the Nexus though I think you're really in the wrong place to ask a bunch of big questions about the various modding tools. Next time when you have a question about a specific games modification tools please use the subforum devoted to those games and their toolkits. Never Winter Nights is here. Skyrim is here.

This is going to take a while...

 

• 1: NWN2 is an old game, if what you want is an older modding system whose kinks, quirks and tricks have been thoroughly documented it'll do you well enough. Though if you're interested in an older game I'd still lean toward Morrowind not NWN2. I have never played that game so I can't really make comments on it being 'too old' for your purposes but I keep a copy of MW installed on my machines at all times and it's still a vibrant playable game with an enthusiastic modding community. As with all older games it does require some finesse to get installed and working in a newer OS however I'm running Win7 and Mw with no problems - it simply requires a little research into proper procedure.
• 2: Skyrim is a new game, newer games always seem to have more activity at a glance because new people and old hats a like always want the new shiny. That much should be obvious.
• 3: Skyrim's Creation Kit is the most powerful modding tool I've seen from Bethesda to date, however it has it's drawbacks as each of the modding tools released before it has (Mw is easy to create multiple races but hard on scripting and dialogue, Oblivion is hard on races but easier on scripting, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are about the same as Oblivion,Skyrim is mid range on races but comparatively easy with scripting) in order to figure out which would be most useful for your purpose more of that purpose would need to be known.
• 4: Bethesda's games have a proven history of being still used and loved well after a new game is released (Mw for example - still in use and still actively modded). So if there's a game to get for this purpose I would suggest one of Bethesda's.
• 5: It's easier to see than it is to discuss. To my knowledge there are no 'debates' on the issue at all. Just random complaints from people who are used to one modding tool, now have to learn another and find various things either out of place our downright obtuse for their purpose. That level of annoyance works both ways really.

 

:rolleyes:

 

A lot of people consider these games to be more than a recreational POS that they can plug into and get out of in a weekend. Sure there are l33t g@m3rs who grab the game the week of release and power through it like it's their jobs to collect achievements - those people rarely stay long enough to create or use mods at all well. A role playing game that doesn't suck you into living another life, let you get lost occasionally or distract you with a little bit of 'oh what's over there' is, as you'd say, poorly designed.

 

The Elderscrolls aren't just games you play - they're a life you live. If you're hoping for something more wham bam thank you ma'mm they are probably not for you. You are probably unlikely to find a quick throwaway game that has a lot of people loving and modding it years from now but perhaps Portal2 would accommodate your needs instead.

 

Either way none of these modding tool sets are standalone - each student will have to purchase and install a copy of the game on their own computers properly, or have access to a terminal where the game has been properly purchased and installed, before it can be used as a teaching tool.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Oubliette

[MollyThunderbreeze]

My hello post was probably a little over the top, but you have come to my rescue. I believe you have correctly understood that my questions were general questions and answered them more than sufficiently. The goal of my questions was to determine how powerful of a tool would these programs be in a classroom setting, and determine in what areas of teaching could they be used (Animation, NPC Design, Story Writing, Design, etc.). As for the price of Skyrim, considering that most technical textbooks run at least $100, the purchase of Skyrim was relatively inexpensive (~$25 at Amazon and the price is dropping every day). The more I read, the more surprised I am at the versatility of these programs, but am still curious about their potential as a teaching tool.

 

NEW GENERAL QUESTION: How powerful are these mod programs? How much revamping of the parent program will these mods allow you to do? (Asking for a general answer here about the power of the game engine, see examples for clarification of my question.) Can users make new PCs and NPCs with new animation, remapping of the keyboard, ...? Now my question has a caveat. I expect the changes to be performed in the toolkit/creation set only, no external programs.

 

Example 1: I read two threads about designing new heads for NPCs that sounded like a serious time burner which would not fit within a semester or quarter system's time frame. The first was designing heads for different races, while the other had redesigned borrowed heads and was trying to get them to work within the game (this user had headless PCs running around, and the thread died on the vine).

 

Instructors (and the books they use) must feed students solvable problems that present and teach new ideas. Based on the above threads in the forum I can see that if handled incorrectly, unsolvable problems could be a very likely outcome without proper guidance from the teacher (and the book).

 

Example 2: Jeff Howard's book has a student set up a group of quests based on two suggested literary 'questing' classics (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight was one). From his book, my initial understanding was that a user could within a couple of months develop their own RPG game using these mod programs (obviously, this project would entail writing and setting up the dialogue, a little world editing, and creating a few canned NPC interactions within that world).

[bben46]

Thanks for the support. :thumbsup:

 

Game Stop is not a good place to get a perspective on Skyrim as it is geared to consoles and selling to grandparents who are used to getting goods from brick & mortar stores ( buying games as gifts for grandkids) And - the Skyrim construction kit will not work on those consoles as it is a PC only program. Not our fault as the console makers, both Microsoft (Xbox) and PS3 (Sony), have banned mods from their consoles as a violation of their very restrictive terms of use. PC games are more likely to be purchased from an online service such as Steam.

 

While Skyrim is a new game, it uses an ancient (by game engine reckoning) 15 year old game engine - that is now limited by things that can not be easily patched - such as the 32 bit only limitation that prevents games from being made for newer 64 bit computers and lack of directx 11 support. The same game engine, with many improvements and upgrades was used to make Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas as well as Skyrim and quite a few games by other companies ( Check the Wiki article for more detail - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebryo )

 

I am not familiar with the NWN engine and cannot comment on that one.

 

There are several up and coming game engines that may be more of the future of gaming - but as I haven't actually used any of them, I cannot either comment or recommend a particular one. Maybe one of our members here has a better perspective on which game engines are better and can make a recommendation.

 

Insisting that the tool kit be completely standalone may be a bit much - as every game toolkit I have worked with is made to be used with third party programs ( why reinvent the wheel) But most of what you want to do can probably be done in the Bethesda Gambryo engine used to make Skyrim. The Skyrim Toolkit is an abbreviated version of the tools used by Bethesda - they had to strip out some features for copyright and contract reasons before releasing it as a free program.

 

I don't see being able to create an entire new game in a single semester, or even 2 semesters - even with the students collaborating. But creating a fairly extensive mod which can be very much like a new game but using the existing framework of an existing game - should be well within reach.

 

One example is the game (or mod) Nehrim which was made using the Oblivion resources as a base, but creating an entirely new world based on those resources, with a lot of new content - That one took well over 2 years of work by a group of experienced programmers.

 

As far as purchasing Skyrim, a legal version - no matter where it is purchased - requires that it be registered through Steam, check Steam for prices. They may be willing to work with you on a quantity deal, and may even have access to other resources for both teachers and students as well. You may also try contacting some of the game companies - such as Bethesda Softworks to see if they can help with any resources.

 

From the WIKI article part on licensing for Gambryo:

 

Educational licenses are also made available for universities and schools running 3D technology courses.

[JonathanRich]

Hi, all. I'm new to the forums, though I've been using NMM for ages now. Three questions:

1. How do I post a new thread?

 

2. I have SkyRe, but I also have a lot of other armor mods and such. After the last update to SkyRe, I can't use any non-SkyRe armor or weapon because the last update shot up armor values and weapon damage, and other armors and weapons just can't compete. Is there a mod I can use to manually edit, in-game, an item's stats?

 

3. I've never been able to fully install SKSE for some reason; I always get the warning square in the inventory screen. What do I do?

[MollyThunderbreeze]

 

Thanks for the support. :thumbsup:

 

Game Stop is not a good place to get a perspective on Skyrim as it is geared to consoles and selling to grandparents who are used to getting goods from brick & mortar stores ( buying games as gifts for grandkids) And - the Skyrim construction kit will not work on those consoles as it is a PC only program. Not our fault as the console makers, both Microsoft (Xbox) and PS3 (Sony), have banned mods from their consoles as a violation of their very restrictive terms of use. PC games are more likely to be purchased from an online service such as Steam.

 

While Skyrim is a new game, it uses an ancient (by game engine reckoning) 15 year old game engine - that is now limited by things that can not be easily patched - such as the 32 bit only limitation that prevents games from being made for newer 64 bit computers and lack of directx 11 support. The same game engine, with many improvements and upgrades was used to make Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas as well as Skyrim and quite a few games by other companies ( Check the Wiki article for more detail - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebryo )

 

I am not familiar with the NWN engine and cannot comment on that one.

 

There are several up and coming game engines that may be more of the future of gaming - but as I haven't actually used any of them, I cannot either comment or recommend a particular one. Maybe one of our members here has a better perspective on which game engines are better and can make a recommendation.

 

Insisting that the tool kit be completely standalone may be a bit much - as every game toolkit I have worked with is made to be used with third party programs ( why reinvent the wheel) But most of what you want to do can probably be done in the Bethesda Gambryo engine used to make Skyrim. The Skyrim Toolkit is an abbreviated version of the tools used by Bethesda - they had to strip out some features for copyright and contract reasons before releasing it as a free program.

 

I don't see being able to create an entire new game in a single semester, or even 2 semesters - even with the students collaborating. But creating a fairly extensive mod which can be very much like a new game but using the existing framework of an existing game - should be well within reach.

 

One example is the game (or mod) Nehrim which was made using the Oblivion resources as a base, but creating an entirely new world based on those resources, with a lot of new content - That one took well over 2 years of work by a group of experienced programmers.

 

As far as purchasing Skyrim, a legal version - no matter where it is purchased - requires that it be registered through Steam, check Steam for prices. They may be willing to work with you on a quantity deal, and may even have access to other resources for both teachers and students as well. You may also try contacting some of the game companies - such as Bethesda Softworks to see if they can help with any resources.

 

From the WIKI article part on licensing for Gambryo:

 

Educational licenses are also made available for universities and schools running 3D technology courses.

 

Thank you very much for your time and responses, quite informative. I am still working through your forum, an excellent resource that is proving quite fruitful for my own project. Again, I cannot thank you enough for creating such a useful and pedagogically correct site for the uninitated.

 

One reason for not going with the actual Gamebryo engine (even with its $0 pricetag) is because of the included resources that these 'packaged with a game' versions include. Things that allow for worlds to be built rather rapidly, NPC/PCs, along with the animation for those resources will cut quite a bit of time required by a student. Keep in mind that instructors provide a doable project within a limited time frame to teach their students a particular theoretical concept(s). You might be surprised at how little independent thought is expected at even the graduate level.

 

What I need to determine is the learning curve for these included game engines (how much class time will be devoted for this purpose).