eye candy vs. realism

[Pineapplerum]

Myrmaad, I love that poem on your sig. Thanks for offering help. Kudos.

[TehDarkPredator]

Even a lot of the real deal real world stuff was largely for show, and things like jousting matches, and ceremonial events.

EDIT: What a lot of people don't realise is those knights in full steel didn't climb up on their horse under their own steam.

They had to be lifted on with a hoist, and when they got knocked of they didn't jump up ala Hollywood, pull out a mace and

whack their opponent. They stayed down until their minders could lift them.

 

 

Nananananah no, that's a wrong idea coming from old '50s films.

 

Plate armour weighted around 40kg, the average soldier in Iraq carries 50kg around if I'm correct.

 

You can swim in plate armour, you can jump in plate armour, you can climb in plate armour. Get smacked off your horse? Jump back up and get back in the fray.

 

You're thinking of tournament armour, armour so heavy you have to be lifted up with a crane, because the king and the dukes liked jousting eachother with lances but didn't want to die. That armour was very heavy, cumbersome and very thick. But it was pretty much godmode armour.

[ChalkLine]

Yeah, I have to chime in here. I'm a medieval history grad studying at the uni of Tasmania (yes, we have one!) and a hobby armourer and armoured fighting martial artist (but really, really crappy at the fighting).

 

My suit of footman's armour from 1475 Switzerland weighs in at 25kg, and is actually slightly overweight. I made it out of sheet mild steel, and had to go foe even thicknesses so it's at maximum thickness everywhere. I'm an old *censored*, but I've seen guys in my group do cartwheels in their armour. In the medieval period of around 1370 (from memory, don't quote me) when the armour was much heavier and mainly chain maille, the Sire de Courcy in France would not knight a squire unless he could do the following three things in full armour;

 

- Vault into the saddle of a horse without using the stirrups*.

- Climb the full length of a siege ladder, underneath.

- Dance gracefully.

 

(*We don't know if he meant a battle saddle. These had really high fronts and backs ['cantles'] and it would have been insanely hard to do.)

 

However, you can't swim in armour, you'd sink like an anchor.

The funny things is, plate is usually lighter than chain, if made in the German 'gothic' style. The heavier Italian 'Milanese' style had less movement, but was a lot quicker to put on. Of course, individual armourers made the stuff the way they liked it (like modders do! :) ) so there's a lot of exceptions to the rule, it was more a trend than anything.

 

Sorry for going wildly off on a tangent

[SpacemanSpIiff]

Yeah, I have to chime in here. I'm a medieval history grad studying at the uni of Tasmania (yes, we have one!) and a hobby armourer and armoured fighting martial artist (but really, really crappy at the fighting).

 

My suit of footman's armour from 1475 Switzerland weighs in at 25kg, and is actually slightly overweight. I made it out of sheet mild steel, and had to go foe even thicknesses so it's at maximum thickness everywhere. I'm an old *censored*, but I've seen guys in my group do cartwheels in their armour. In the medieval period of around 1370 (from memory, don't quote me) when the armour was much heavier and mainly chain maille, the Sire de Courcy in France would not knight a squire unless he could do the following three things in full armour;

 

- Vault into the saddle of a horse without using the stirrups*.

- Climb the full length of a siege ladder, underneath.

- Dance gracefully.

 

(*We don't know if he meant a battle saddle. These had really high fronts and backs ['cantles'] and it would have been insanely hard to do.)

 

However, you can't swim in armour, you'd sink like an anchor.

The funny things is, plate is usually lighter than chain, if made in the German 'gothic' style. The heavier Italian 'Milanese' style had less movement, but was a lot quicker to put on. Of course, individual armourers made the stuff the way they liked it (like modders do! :) ) so there's a lot of exceptions to the rule, it was more a trend than anything.

 

Sorry for going wildly off on a tangent

 

No, thank you for the good expert input on real plated armor.

[BossDweebe]

Yeah a good tangent. All part of a lively debate.

I had thought all plate steel was the same gauge as the jousting gear, and

thought that in battle it was more restricted to breast plates, helmets and chain.

Interesting to hear that chain was heaver, but it must have offered better movement as well. You reckon ?

 

Actually tough it wasn't 50's films that misled me. In the films I saw they always got up after being knocked off.

No - I think is was a High School class, but that was oh so long ago.

 

btw - Chalkie - Have you seem the Tyrael armour ? I just got wind of that the other day. Nice gear.

The wing bits are a bit wild, but.

[ihateregisteringeverywhere]

It would if you didn't have to wear a doublet or something similar underneath to avoid getting hurt by your own armour ;D.

 

Then again you had to wear that under plate as well so I guess that that point is moot.

[ChalkLine]

I haven't seen it, but I'll download it now :D

 

As for wings, the Poles in the 16th century had wings on their armour;

 

http://www.israpundit.com/2008/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/husaria_benda_.jpg

 

Probably not quite like Tyrael's armour, but hey!

 

The Pole's wings were usually a springy wood, and sometimes had wooden feathers. When they charged the rattle of the wings, the thunder of the hooves and the jingling rustle of the armour (Oblivion got that sound perfectly) was said to be terrifying. The Pole's were the 'thinking man's heavy cavalry'. You'd be all tensed up to take their horrifying charge and they'd suddenly veer into you at an angle while some rode past on either side, shooting at you.

 

Jousting and tournament armour came in essentially two types; a single harness or 'garniture'. Garniture is a cool thing, it was bolted on extra armour for different jobs. If you were jousting with sharp lances (not all lancing was with crowned lances) you piled on the frontal armour. If you fought at the barrier where you couldn't be hurt below the waist, you put on different lower armour. The funny thing is, being a history-freak, the closest thing we get in armour mods to a garniture is some of the eye-candy armours. You see them with different levels of protection, and they would work perfectly for making garniture-enchantments (one sort for thieving enchantments, one for combat enchantments and one for straight out mage enchantments).

 

I've fought a little in chain, but it was an earlier style hauberk with long skirts to below the knee. If you run, all that steel hanging off your waist starts to swing, and when you stop it keeps on swinging and makes it really hard to stay standing. On rough surfaces it usually means you go over onto your backside. Chain hangs only off your shoulders and waist, where plate is directly attached to a padded under jacket and evenly attached all over your body. of course, my suit had to go and have the maximum mobility, meaning every bit is individually strapped on: I have 37 buckles to do up. My mate Pat with a Milanese rig has 13.

 

Don't worry about having a lot of misconceptions about armour; most pre-university level schooling doesn't bother with stuff like that, and there's a lot more important stuff to cram into a kid's head than getting rid of all the myths.

[jonesjoshuar]

I haven't seen it, but I'll download it now :D

 

As for wings, the Poles in the 16th century had wings on their armour;

 

http://www.israpundit.com/2008/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/husaria_benda_.jpg

 

Probably not quite like Tyrael's armour, but hey!

 

The Pole's wings were usually a springy wood, and sometimes had wooden feathers. When they charged the rattle of the wings, the thunder of the hooves and the jingling rustle of the armour (Oblivion got that sound perfectly) was said to be terrifying. The Pole's were the 'thinking man's heavy cavalry'. You'd be all tensed up to take their horrifying charge and they'd suddenly veer into you at an angle while some rode past on either side, shooting at you.

 

Jousting and tournament armour came in essentially two types; a single harness or 'garniture'. Garniture is a cool thing, it was bolted on extra armour for different jobs. If you were jousting with sharp lances (not all lancing was with crowned lances) you piled on the frontal armour. If you fought at the barrier where you couldn't be hurt below the waist, you put on different lower armour. The funny thing is, being a history-freak, the closest thing we get in armour mods to a garniture is some of the eye-candy armours. You see them with different levels of protection, and they would work perfectly for making garniture-enchantments (one sort for thieving enchantments, one for combat enchantments and one for straight out mage enchantments).

 

I've fought a little in chain, but it was an earlier style hauberk with long skirts to below the knee. If you run, all that steel hanging off your waist starts to swing, and when you stop it keeps on swinging and makes it really hard to stay standing. On rough surfaces it usually means you go over onto your backside. Chain hangs only off your shoulders and waist, where plate is directly attached to a padded under jacket and evenly attached all over your body. of course, my suit had to go and have the maximum mobility, meaning every bit is individually strapped on: I have 37 buckles to do up. My mate Pat with a Milanese rig has 13.

 

Don't worry about having a lot of misconceptions about armour; most pre-university level schooling doesn't bother with stuff like that, and there's a lot more important stuff to cram into a kid's head than getting rid of all the myths.

 

Would this be why surprise attacks would be so useful in this age? If your opponent was asleep and thus unarmored, they would not have time to armor up. 10 - 40 buckles would take time and maybe assistance. This stuff fascinates me.

[BossDweebe]

Don't worry about having a lot of misconceptions about armour; most pre-university level schooling doesn't bother with stuff like that

 

You're not wrong. A lot of High School teaching is urban myth compared to Uni.

 

garniture - So the Persian armour I mentioned was a radical version of that. Must be

they had a rule - "No poking below the waist." - :smile:

 

EDIT: Good idea Akabeth - I'll the lad a kudo too.

[Akabeth]

Yeah, I have to chime in here. I'm a medieval history grad studying at the uni of Tasmania (yes, we have one!) and a hobby armourer and armoured fighting martial artist (but really, really crappy at the fighting).

 

My suit of footman's armour from 1475 Switzerland weighs in at 25kg, and is actually slightly overweight. I made it out of sheet mild steel, and had to go foe even thicknesses so it's at maximum thickness everywhere. I'm an old *censored*, but I've seen guys in my group do cartwheels in their armour. In the medieval period of around 1370 (from memory, don't quote me) when the armour was much heavier and mainly chain maille, the Sire de Courcy in France would not knight a squire unless he could do the following three things in full armour;

 

- Vault into the saddle of a horse without using the stirrups*.

- Climb the full length of a siege ladder, underneath.

- Dance gracefully.

 

(*We don't know if he meant a battle saddle. These had really high fronts and backs ['cantles'] and it would have been insanely hard to do.)

 

However, you can't swim in armour, you'd sink like an anchor.

The funny things is, plate is usually lighter than chain, if made in the German 'gothic' style. The heavier Italian 'Milanese' style had less movement, but was a lot quicker to put on. Of course, individual armourers made the stuff the way they liked it (like modders do! :) ) so there's a lot of exceptions to the rule, it was more a trend than anything.

 

Sorry for going wildly off on a tangent

 

Very informative post, I'd say! Kudos to you ;)

 

For the topic at hand, I personally use HGEC just by visual preference and readily available wardrobe mods to match.