The Next Tes is the End of the Human Main Culture, how many TES Games

[MostlyMuggie]

idk if its been said already or not as I haven't the time to read every post atm but I believe high rock is next inline. for many reasons.

valenwood will likely still be recovering from the war, black marsh seems hard to do lore wise, as for summerset Isle it could be next to explain where the story will lead us with the war and so on however I dont think it will be next. as for elsweyr and again black marsh I think they are just to out of the way for now. if they do high rock they not only finish the top of the map but they will knock off two more race home lands in one shot. also orcs and bretons are the next most played races besides nords and Imperials, I also believe that most people are playing nords and imperials just to match the skyrim theme.

even though ive only ever played bretons I would like valenwood to be next as it sounds like a very fun place, very fairy taleish with the looks of the lost woods from Zelda. however if I was running things I would do high rock next. to give the fans what they want, to be done with the top of the map and too knock off two more race games from the to do list.

but that's no time soon, for now all I am hoping is that now with elder scrolls online it will allow people to see with there own eyes atlest a basic idea of what the other lands look like which means people might start to mod these lands for skyrim or for the next elder scrolls :wink:

 

I doubt they would do it in High Rock again. They already made a game takes place in High Rock (Daggerfall). Remember that they could make an Elder Scrolls game take place in the past, it doesn''t have to take place after the events of Skyrim. (Elder Scrolls Online takes place in 2nd Era, Skyrim takes place in 4th Era for example)

 

 

it would have been nice if they stop making new elder scrolls and just make big dlc for each land mass, I would pay the price of a full game for a dlc like such. at this rate of a new elder scrolls every 5 years or so I fell I wont live long enough to see all the places.

 

I believe this is a bad idea as the game would become outdated really quick if they just kept adding on to Skyrim. Making a whole new game for each province makes a lot of $$. Bethesda is a business. Plus the games would have to take place in the same time frame as Skyrim.

[darkmadmax]

Second, you're rather mistaken if you think Minecraft is the product of a single person. Originally, it was, but it became a multi-person program long before the implementation of the so called 'infinite world-space'. And yes, it is surprisingly simple, but it still causes rendering problems and system lag.

 

the scope of minecraft is 1 person indy project. that how core , what makes minecraft minecraft was made. This is simple fact. once it became big they started throwing more money and people at it , that still doesn't change that at the core minecraft is very simplistic and primitive project and its rendering limitations stem from that as well. there are plethora minecraft clone engine which surfaced all over the places after it became such hit - those things can be done by competent college student in 1-2 month timeframe, and in fact were done before minecraft. Just no one had the acumen to turn them into actual game and distribute it

 

 

 

You are also totally ignoring the core of my argument. Technically, it is possible for the industry to produce that large an area using procedural generation. However, the overwhelming majority of consumer owned consoles (including PC's in this distinction) couldn't handle it. Just because YOURS could doesn't mean everyone else can. Many people have trouble running Skyrim for craps sake. You are also totally ignoring the main problem with PC gaming, being the huge variety of different hardware configuration, which is the leading cause of crashes and glitches in Skyrim.

 

Variety of hardware is not what causing "glitches and crashes". yeah its harder to make multiplatform games and yeah it will have more limitations if you want to run it on xbox and ps3 as well. That still doenst make it "unfeasible" or "impossible".

 

 

Yes, you are right, it is partly an unwillingness for companies to invest the time in populating and arranging these massive environments, but part of that unwillingness comes from, again, a total lack of feasibility. It would take decades for your average games developer to complete something like that, not counting constant changeovers as technology progresses. The only remotely feasible way to accomplish it would be through random generation, but as i said that is difficult in worlds which are already established.

 

Not from the lack of feasibility. -but from the lack of clearly defined profits. It will be after all just another game. If you look from the business perspective what sells is game like skyrim. which is the furthest away from that approach. it would require solid investment, a company run by competent people ,and most of all well funded team of highly intelligent motivated developers, well managed over many years to produce such product. and this is an incredible rarity and no one will throw that on just a damn video game when they can make google or amazon with such team

Edited October 24, 2013 by Dark_MadMax

[MidevalGuy]

I agree that there is nothing (technologically speaking) holding back an open world RPG the scale some posters are describing in this thread. OK, maybe the new Xbox One and PS4 console hardware would hold it back, but on the PC side we seem to have hit a point of diminishing returns where graphics are as high fidelity as they can get until the next iteration of hardware.... That is always around the corner, literally... So, perhaps the emphasis should be on content a.k.a. quality instead of quantity?

 

As to where (or when) the next TES game takes place... Your guess is as good as mine :smile:

 

The only real complaints I have with Skyrim are the ones I posted on the Spoilers board, and they are complaints common among many RPG and Bethesda fans:

 

The writing and game design needs to be stepped up to give players a better sense that what they did in the game had tangible results in the world around them at a macro (main quest, big setpieces) level and not just a micro level (side-quests and within faction story line quests). This is one of (or used to be) the defining characteristics of the RPG genre and more recently, the thing that differentiates between various RPG studios like Obsidian, Bethesda and BioWare.

 

Fallout: New Vegas (Obsidian) is as close to an old-school RPG there is where your actions effect almost every single thing you do during and after the game (the end game). Obsidian is not afraid of not allowing players to experience everything (every side-quest for every faction) in one play through. This is how RPGs used to be and this is what gives them their replay value. This is also a good example of the writing and game design flawlessly complimenting each other and this is the kind of quality I hope the next TES game provides.

[MostlyMuggie]

I agree that there is nothing (technologically speaking) holding back an open world RPG the scale some posters are describing in this thread. OK, maybe the new Xbox One and PS4 console hardware would hold it back, but on the PC side we seem to have hit a point of diminishing returns where graphics are as high fidelity as they can get until the next iteration of hardware.... That is always around the corner, literally... So, perhaps the emphasis should be on content a.k.a. quality instead of quantity?

 

As to where (or when) the next TES game takes place... Your guess is as good as mine :smile:

 

The only real complaints I have with Skyrim are the ones I posted on the Spoilers board, and they are complaints common among many RPG and Bethesda fans:

 

The writing and game design needs to be stepped up to give players a better sense that what they did in the game had tangible results in the world around them at a macro (main quest, big setpieces) level and not just a micro level (side-quests and within faction story line quests). This is one of (or used to be) the defining characteristics of the RPG genre and more recently, the thing that differentiates between various RPG studios like Obsidian, Bethesda and BioWare.

 

Fallout: New Vegas (Obsidian) is as close to an old-school RPG there is where your actions effect almost every single thing you do during and after the game (the end game). Obsidian is not afraid of not allowing players to experience everything (every side-quest for every faction) in one play through. This is how RPGs used to be and this is what gives them their replay value. This is also a good example of the writing and game design flawlessly complimenting each other and this is the kind of quality I hope the next TES game provides.

Thank you for this post. Finally SOMEONE else agrees with me. Elder Scrolls and Bethesda games in general are going further and further away from a true RPG. Fallout NV was very good in the RPG aspect compared to Fallout 3 or Skyrim.

[budcat]

Fallout: New Vegas (Obsidian) is as close to an old-school RPG there is where your actions effect almost every single thing you do during and after the game (the end game). Obsidian is not afraid of not allowing players to experience everything (every side-quest for every faction) in one play through. This is how RPGs used to be and this is what gives them their replay value. This is also a good example of the writing and game design flawlessly complimenting each other and this is the kind of quality I hope the next TES game provides.

Thank you for this post. Finally SOMEONE else agrees with me. Elder Scrolls and Bethesda games in general are going further and further away from a true RPG. Fallout NV was very good in the RPG aspect compared to Fallout 3 or Skyrim.

Agree, agree.

 

Skyrim exemplifies the action-RPG genre: more Legend of Zelda than Baldur's Gate. I'd like to see more traditional RPG elements given as much TLC as the action.

Edited October 25, 2013 by budcat

[Lachdonin]

Holy sweet crap, what was i smoking last night? I apologize to everyone, especially Dark_Madmax for the near incomprehensible gibberish i was spewing last night.

 

Thank you for this post. Finally SOMEONE else agrees with me. Elder Scrolls and Bethesda games in general are going further and further away from a true RPG. Fallout NV was very good in the RPG aspect compared to Fallout 3 or Skyrim.

 

 

I both agree and disagree. They ARE moving away from the traditional RPG system, but i don't think that makes it less of a TRUE RPG. This has been an ongoing discussion i've been part of over on the Bethesda forums, and alot has come out of it. I think the problem lies less in the concept and more in the execution... Perks, for instance, offered the potential for far more character customization and choice than we've seen since Daggerfall (customization and choice being at the core of what it is to be an RPG) but it was horribly unbalanced and lacked focus.

 

Between SkyrimSniper, Charlemagne19 and myself, there have been some rather extensive posts on the Official;Beyond Skyrim #28 thread which i would encourage people hop over and take a look at. Not just mine, since SkyrimSniper's post (on the first page) was very well thought out, even if i disagree with some of his arguments (god riddance to Classes).

 

But i digress... I think TES games are in a somewhat awkward position right now, moving away from the traditional model of RPG's and forging a path towards something far better. More customization, more immersion, more variability, more choice. But they are in that half-there state of any renovation in which everything looks likes its about to collapse at any time. I personally hope they keep pushing in their current direction, rather than revert to the old "Tried and True" model, as their choices have almost unfathomable potential.

 

That's not the point of this thread though, and it is in fact the second time i've gone on an off-topic rant here (hopefully more intelligibly than the last time).

 

As far as TES games go, they are not so much about the Cultures in question. Those cultures form a backdrop for the story, but are never the focus of it. More importantly, these cultures are constantly changing, adapting to the world in a realistic way. We see this in Dragonborn, where the religious and administrative character of the Dunmer has changed from the Tribunes back to the Daedra and the Great Houses, but at the same time is different than the Daedric worship before the Tribunal Temple. We see this in the rise of Talos Worship, which only began with the Warp in the West.

 

We know of at least 3 major cultural shifts still coming. Landfall, the rise of the Alyeidoon Hegemony, and the redevelopment of magical-space-ships (there were already the Sunbirds and the Mananoughts). Who these shifts affect, and what changes they cause, remains in question...

 

But don't assume that we only have one human culture left to explore, because culture changes.

[MidevalGuy]

One thing that is certain is Bethesda always has to keep a mass audience in mind from now on and that means they can't go completely "native" -- Meaning, they won't make a game take place entirely in Black Marsh because it's too alien and "filled with lizard people" as most non-hardcore TES players would say. Something that foreign, even if interesting and a nice change of pace, is just too risky for Bethesda at this point in time, IMO. Maybe the subject for a DLC, but I don't see them making an entire core game centered around Black Marsh because of the mainstream appeal to want something different, but still familiar.

 

For example, TES gets a lot of inspiration from Tolkien, and his works are well known and accepted around the world because they have easy entry points in the form of various characters and races, especially the humans since this is something we relate to automatically. The other races (Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves) are all extensions of man and the human condition which makes their races and dramas resonate even if they aren't human. This is why a TES game set in a completely foreign environment like Black Marsh is too limiting for the mass appeal the TES games have now achieved, IMO.

 

On the bright side, I agree what Bethesda is doing is an interesting experiment by trying to evolve RPGs into something more accessible and with greater character choice by removing classes and other limited archetypes. Time will tell if they succeed or not, but at least they are trying, and I give them credit for their efforts. A lot of hardcore TES players like to blame consoles for the supposed "dumbing down" of TES games, but I think not only is that immature, it's short-sighted because games... no matter the genre or platform... can't just be for a select few anymore and expect to survive. That's just how the games industry has evolved, right or wrong. And of course, a lot of that elitism is filled with ignorance and not knowing the difference between making something more accessible and dumbing it down which are two separate and mutually exclusive things. Skyrim may not be as complex as Oblivion, but it's not as convoluted or un-polished as Morrowind was. That's where knowing the difference between improving and streamlining certain things and just making things easier e.g. "dumbing it down" really comes into play, but most hardcore zealots can't, or don't want to make the differentiation between the two.

[Lachdonin]

The only constant in the universe is change. The wise adapt. Everyone else rages on the internet.

[MostlyMuggie]

One thing that is certain is Bethesda always has to keep a mass audience in mind from now on and that means they can't go completely "native" -- Meaning, they won't make a game take place entirely in Black Marsh because it's too alien and "filled with lizard people" as most non-hardcore TES players would say. Something that foreign, even if interesting and a nice change of pace, is just too risky for Bethesda at this point in time, IMO. Maybe the subject for a DLC, but I don't see them making an entire core game centered around Black Marsh because of the mainstream appeal to want something different, but still familiar.

 

For example, TES gets a lot of inspiration from Tolkien, and his works are well known and accepted around the world because they have easy entry points in the form of various characters and races, especially the humans since this is something we relate to automatically. The other races (Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves) are all extensions of man and the human condition which makes their races and dramas resonate even if they aren't human. This is why a TES game set in a completely foreign environment like Black Marsh is too limiting for the mass appeal the TES games have now achieved, IMO.

 

On the bright side, I agree what Bethesda is doing is an interesting experiment by trying to evolve RPGs into something more accessible and with greater character choice by removing classes and other limited archetypes. Time will tell if they succeed or not, but at least they are trying, and I give them credit for their efforts. A lot of hardcore TES players like to blame consoles for the supposed "dumbing down" of TES games, but I think not only is that immature, it's short-sighted because games... no matter the genre or platform... can't just be for a select few anymore and expect to survive. That's just how the games industry has evolved, right or wrong. And of course, a lot of that elitism is filled with ignorance and not knowing the difference between making something more accessible and dumbing it down which are two separate and mutually exclusive things. Skyrim may not be as complex as Oblivion, but it's not as convoluted or un-polished as Morrowind was. That's where knowing the difference between improving and streamlining certain things and just making things easier e.g. "dumbing it down" really comes into play, but most hardcore zealots can't, or don't want to make the differentiation between the two.

 

I agree with you in some of your points. I can see how a lot of "causal gamers" would be like "WTF is this" if they saw a game where most of the people are 'furries', i.e. Elsweyr or Black Marsh. It breaks the stereotype of the Tolkenesque land that causal people are looking for after playing Oblivion and Skyrim. This is not to say that they won't make a game in a weird alien world. Just look at Morrowind and Shivering Isles. They were in weird worlds and peole loved them.

 

For the other part about dumbing down, I kinda like the way they did things in Skyrim. They took out the redundant things like Athletics and Acrobatics (although I do miss the classes and a lot of the separate skills).

 

What my fear is that they will continue that trend and the next game will lack the leveling and skills making it just like a Action Adventure game where all you do is choose how your character looks.

[budcat]

 

One thing that is certain is Bethesda always has to keep a mass audience in mind from now on and that means they can't go completely "native" -- Meaning, they won't make a game take place entirely in Black Marsh because it's too alien and "filled with lizard people" as most non-hardcore TES players would say. Something that foreign, even if interesting and a nice change of pace, is just too risky for Bethesda at this point in time, IMO. Maybe the subject for a DLC, but I don't see them making an entire core game centered around Black Marsh because of the mainstream appeal to want something different, but still familiar.

 

For example, TES gets a lot of inspiration from Tolkien, and his works are well known and accepted around the world because they have easy entry points in the form of various characters and races, especially the humans since this is something we relate to automatically. The other races (Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves) are all extensions of man and the human condition which makes their races and dramas resonate even if they aren't human. This is why a TES game set in a completely foreign environment like Black Marsh is too limiting for the mass appeal the TES games have now achieved, IMO.

 

On the bright side, I agree what Bethesda is doing is an interesting experiment by trying to evolve RPGs into something more accessible and with greater character choice by removing classes and other limited archetypes. Time will tell if they succeed or not, but at least they are trying, and I give them credit for their efforts. A lot of hardcore TES players like to blame consoles for the supposed "dumbing down" of TES games, but I think not only is that immature, it's short-sighted because games... no matter the genre or platform... can't just be for a select few anymore and expect to survive. That's just how the games industry has evolved, right or wrong. And of course, a lot of that elitism is filled with ignorance and not knowing the difference between making something more accessible and dumbing it down which are two separate and mutually exclusive things. Skyrim may not be as complex as Oblivion, but it's not as convoluted or un-polished as Morrowind was. That's where knowing the difference between improving and streamlining certain things and just making things easier e.g. "dumbing it down" really comes into play, but most hardcore zealots can't, or don't want to make the differentiation between the two.

 

I agree with you in some of your points. I can see how a lot of "causal gamers" would be like "WTF is this" if they saw a game where most of the people are 'furries', i.e. Elsweyr or Black Marsh. It breaks the stereotype of the Tolkenesque land that causal people are looking for after playing Oblivion and Skyrim. This is not to say that they won't make a game in a weird alien world. Just look at Morrowind and Shivering Isles. They were in weird worlds and peole loved them.

 

For the other part about dumbing down, I kinda like the way they did things in Skyrim. They took out the redundant things like Athletics and Acrobatics (although I do miss the classes and a lot of the separate skills).

 

What my fear is that they will continue that trend and the next game will lack the leveling and skills making it just like a Action Adventure game where all you do is choose how your character looks.

Which is my fear as well. I agree athletics was a little redundant since it was basically a second speed stat, but to me acrobatics was a huge loss. I had flipping and jumping characters that played much differently than more 'grounded' ones. I felt it was a lame cut. Same with hand to hand. Another lost opportunity. You may as well cut Khajiit if you're going to cut hand to hand. Then again, Skyrim practically did.

 

Going back to setting a game in a world too alien not being mainstream, I may have agreed with this at a time perhaps before WOW or Mass Effect, but we've now seen the "casual gamer" readily accept large cow people and true blue aliens without batting an eye. Things really have changed over the years. I don't know how old you are, but I can remember a time where "Tolkien-esque" would never have been used in the same sentence as "casual gamer." Even if it were a gamble, I think especially post-Skyrim they could afford to be more risky about it. I doubt they will though, only because it's wise to be a cynical consumer.

 

Oblivion wins out for me over Morrowind and Skyrim, but not for its setting. I think the Tolkien-esque world is a bit played out too but it's difficult for me to pinpoint what precisely worked for me in Oblivion more than Skyrim, but going back now to Oblivion I know it is there and I have a tangible sense of enjoying myself a lot more playing it over Skyrim. What I can tell you concretely is it is not Oblivion's relatively cheesy setting that does it for me.

 

I would be much happier in Elsweyr or Black Marsh, if only because it is fascinating and new. Khajiit were always my favorite race because they were martial artists and had a Taoist sensibility about themselves. It never occurred to me that they'd be conflated with furries or furries would like them, but even if they do, BFD. So while Oblivion's my favorite game in the series, I vote Elsweyr. Elsweyr or Valenwood. I don't know how much lore people have read about wood elves and Valenwood, but they're probably one of the stranger fantasy races ever conceived. If they made a map where the cities moved around (as they're built on top of Ent-like trees called Graht-oaks) it would make for a pretty unique, dynamic world. Think of the 'no fast travel' purists.

 

Also, venturing further into the future, the provinces could be less racially one-sided and become more cosmopolitan like Cyrodiil was in Oblivion. One thing I did enjoy as far as culture was concerned, was the way that Cyrodiil felt very naturally influenced by the surrounding provinces. Where Bruma was Skyrim-like, Cheydinhal more Dark Elf influenced and Leyawiin was very Elsweyrian, Skyrim's cities seemed to have a sort of homogeneity throughout the province. I understand that Nords are very proud of their culture but Skyrim didn't feel as authentic, intriguing or complex. Cyrodiil seemed to have this "interracial" culture exchange thing happening near the various borders which was more fascinating than the "Nords Only" province of Skyrim.

 

I'm rambling, but I think whatever direction they go, one thing I'd really like to see is more underwater locations where being an argonian or having waterbreathing spells is a necessity. They could create much more interesting lakes and oceans with their own dangers. The river and oceans in all three games have been lost opportunities for cool hidden locations.

Edited October 25, 2013 by budcat