Ulfric Stormcloak Dossier

[CrashMasterJMM]

I have often wondered about something... I know that no quest line is started after you find the Ulfric Stormcloak dossier, but I have to ask... is there anything you can do with the information within? Bring it to the Empire's attention or something? You'd think this would be information that would prove to be of great value to the Empire so they'd get their thumbs out of where the sun don't shine and confront the Thalmor about it.

[MidevalGuy]

I often wondered the same thing; unfinished quest, or an unrealized way to end the CW early?.

 

I believe it's current purpose is to make you side with the Imperials since it's part of the MQ. So, no matter whose side you have, or have not chosen yet it sheds some new light on what exactly is going on (The Thalmor are using Ulfric to stir up trouble in Skyrim to weaken the Empire). This almost makes you not want to do the CW (if you haven't touched it until "Diplomatic Immunity") because it proves both sides are fighting and dying for nothing more than the Thalmor's benefit.

[Bonehead325]

I'm kind of stuck on this myself. I have always felt sorry for the Nords in where they are at, it is their land, but how ugly they can act towards other races pushes me away from helping them. On the other hand, the imperials were giving up peoples rights that didn't belong to them. Then to find out that either way, the thalmor get what they want... I don't know who to side with o_o

[CrashMasterJMM]

If only there were a way at the High Hrothgar negotiations, to throw in an option to eliminate the Thalmor from Skyrim as common ground between both the Empire and Stormcloaks to stop the war entirely, using said dossier as evedence. But then, that would have ramifications beyond Skyrim, as the Empire would have to be extremely careful not to let on to the Thalmor that they're conspiring against them secretively with the dragonborn... lol.

[Shubal]

I've assumed that everyone who sides with the Stormcloaks has never read a mod description or the dossier on Ulfric.

[Deleted1319400User]

I too find it difficult to pick a side in the civil war. This is a reflection of historical and political reality, which is a nice addition to any fantasy to make it more immersive. There are no easy or palatable third options, because there aren't any in real life. You have to make the decision you feel is best and live with the consequences. Or, stay neutral and go looking for fortune and glory, kill a few dragons, and hang out at the nearest inn. :wink:

 

Gotta love games where you can just "live" in its world, not get "involved," and still find adventure.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Guest

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

"If only there were a way at the High Hrothgar negotiations, to throw in an option to eliminate the Thalmor from Skyrim as common ground between both the Empire and Stormcloaks to stop the war entirely, using said dossier as evedence."

This.

 

"I've assumed that everyone who sides with the Stormcloaks has never read a mod description or the dossier on Ulfric."

What a foolish assumption. You've obviously not thought the issue through.

The Stormcloaks are the best choice because they are the only choice; the Empire stands no chance. Imperial supporters presume a Day of Reckoning, a Secret Plan to Defeat the Thalmor at some nebulous future date of Imperial resurgence that will never come, as the Empire has already surrendered to the Thalmor and will only continue to get weaker over time thanks to their foolish decision to allow themselves to be infiltrated and compromised.

Ulfric's plan to attack the Thalmor abroad after driving them from his homeland (with a little help from the Dragonborn) may have little hope of succeeding, but the Empire's plan to continue to allow themselves to be systematically undermined, to have their best people kidnapped, tortured, and killed, means they have no hope whatsoever.

How many successful rebel leaders have started out as "Uncooperative Assets" of some interested power only to be underestimated? Quite a few. How many empires have stood while their most powerful enemies prowled their streets with paramilitary agents posing as religious police unchecked by any authority and with practically unlimited powers of detention, interrogation, and assassination? None that I know of.

Ironically it would take a rebel leader within the Empire to overthrow it and kick out the Thalmor to actually give the Empire a fighting chance. So long as the Thalmor have a license to kill anywhere in Empire territory the Empire is doomed. At least under the Stormcloaks Skyrim can stand and fight, and with the clock ticking on the Dominion's other conquests such as Hammerfell the sooner the better.

Finally there's the issue of the about-face of the Thalmor toward the Stormcloaks. Have you noticed that despite the uncontested power to undermine the Empire the Thalmor are as of the Dragonborn's arrival focused exclusively on the Stormcloaks? They don't even staff their office in Solitude. They can sense the Empire becoming irrelevant.

The Thalmor chose, above many other prime targets, to kidnap Thorald in the largely independent Whiterun Hold, a pretty big risk. That choice was made much more recently than the penning of Ulfric's musty old Dossier, and it tells a whole new story: Thorald was perceived as dangerous for his tactical and/or strategic significance to the Stormcloaks, not for any religious infractions actual or alleged. The Thalmor are scared to death of the Stormcloaks. Why kidnap and torture a suspected 'Cloak despite a wide selection of choice Imperial targets if your primary threat is the Empire? The worm has already started to turn and the Thalmor sense it; if they didn't they'd be kidnapping Brina Merilis or framing Ambarys Rendar, not wasting time on Thorald Greymane.

This puts the final piece of the puzzle into place: the Thalmor always take Stormcloak prisoners, never Imperial. The Thalmor, agents of chaos whose masters went to great lengths to secure for them the power to undermine and assassinate anywhere in Empire territory, are doing everything they can to help the Empire in Skyrim. Talk about the dog that doesn't bark. They say all those Stormcloak prisoners are headed to the rack because they've committed the heresy of Talos worship, but we know in Thorald's case it was because they [incorrectly] suspected he was devoting his martial skills to the Stormcloaks. How many more of those Hemskirs the Thalmor claim they've caught are really Thoralds?

If Ulfric really were the patsy he was thought to be when the Dossier was written why are the Thalmor putting all their weight against the Stormcloak Rebellion? If the Empire wins the Thalmor win. If the 'Cloaks win every asset in Skyrim from High Hrothgar to the College of Winterhold to the Shrine of Talos in Solitude and the College full of propagandists who will promptly spin Talos into a Thalmor defeat suddenly goes hostile. For the Thalmor a 'Cloak victory is a disaster. The Thalmor seem not only to know it but to fear it. Provided the wisdom to see it, the Dragonborn has the unique opportunity to make that fear come true.

[Matth85]

I must accuse that wall of text the be wrong.

How would THalmor lose anything? If the Stormcloaks win, the empire is even more divided, and have lost. Now the ONLY unified "alliance" is gone, and what is left are countries standing on their own. Mind you, no country can stand their own. What would Skyrim gain from cutting ties with the Empire?

Yes, the Thalmor might say "f*#@ it", and move on. Taking everything else, leaving Skyrim at a multi-sided war.

Frankly, it's a classic example of divide and conquer. If the Stormcloak win, the empire loses hope and instead of having a unified Tamriel, you got simple chaotic states.

 

Just to discuss both sides: What exactly do you think happens if the empire wins? That they bown down and let the Thalmor do their merry thing?

Of course not. Everything the empire has done has been to deal with this the best way possible. Signing the White-Gold Concordat was the only way to avoid any more mass-slaughter. They banned worship of Talos -- yes, but NOBODY enforced it. Not before the STORMCLOAK made a fuss about it, making the Thalmor care.

The Empire simply did what they could to save as much life as possible. Why fight on your knee, when you can rise up later?

 

Looking at the bigger picture, we are first being introduced to "Empire bad, Stormcloak good!", but as you get perspective, you see Ulfric doing everything wrong, and the empire trying to save as many lives as possible.

 

The only reason I can think of why Ulfric does these things, is the stoic Nord stubbornness. He'd rather fight to the last Nord, than to see the Thalmor rule. Even though everybody knows it's a losing war.

 

It's all rather grey, and both sides can be justified. Though it all matters of perspective. Wether you meta game, or you role play a Nord. A battle hardened Nord would choose the Stormclouk any day, while a wise High Elf would look to the empire.

 

Divide and Conquer. Perfectly excecuted by the Thalmor. The only thing not accounted for are the dragons, and the dragonborn. I'd bet the Thalmor had this thing planned long ago. At least considering the age some Elves can reach. They wanted Hammerfell, they got it. They didn't even want Cyrodiil -- it was just a distraction, but they got it. They made the chaos they needed. There is really no stopping them in deactivating the last towers. Only thing that can be done is to keep worshipping Talos-

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

It's the choice between slim hope and no hope. The Thalmor, by virtue of having its agents roaming all over the Empire executing people at will, has already defeated the Empire. If they win in Skyrim their agents retain access to all the territory, people, and important places in Skyrim, to either co-opt as would inevitably happen as almost did at the College of Winterhold or purge as would most likely happen to the Greybeards at High Hrothgar.

Anyone in Imperial territory with any exceptional quality that might be a threat to the Thalmor, be it martial skill or charisma, can be "disappeared" as easily as Thorald Greymane, and the Empire will do nothing. The 'Cloaks have the freedom to organize resistance without all their leaders and best people disappearing.

The part about Thorald was pretty important. It's too bad you didn't read it.

[Aluroon]

Edit - RatcatcherOfKvatch's point regarding Thorald and the Thalmor actions in Skyrim is an excellent one.

 

Edit 2 - It occurs to me my post is better served in a spoiler friendly area. I've moved it there to a similar discussion.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Aluroon