The Non-Human Sapient Races

[Adipose]

Regarding the Khajiit and Argonians, do any of you know how/why they came into being? The reason I ask is that I have a problem with their physical form(s).

 

If they evolved over the course of many milennia, I question whether their heads, tails, fur, scales, etc would have remained as they are portrayed. If they were created through some sorcerous manipulation of their genes, than it's something else again and anything is possible.

 

I've attempted to download and play the various mods such as the Omes-Raht, but my comp continues to run into problems with them so I've given up the attempts.

 

BTW, in the various game mods it's become possible to have sex with the non-human races though I suspect that such an effort would be unsatisfying, particularly if the female was a member of one of the non-human grou[s. Iirc, in real life, toms have tackle that is noticeably different than that of us more simian sorts.

[Arimikami]

They came into being the same way all races did in Elder Scrolls. They were made by the Aedra. It's specifically Azura that made the Khajiit, according to their myths (I know, she's not an Aedra. She's a Daedra but, that's what the Khajiit believe.) Things like evolution and science have no real bearing in a world of myth, magic, and gods that walk the earth.

[Lachdonin]

First, it's unwise to presume that our model of genetics exists in the Aubrus. Things simply don't work the way we think they should there. The plants don't need the Sun to survive, 'evolution' doesn't take millions of years, and the planets In the sky aren't actually planets. For that matter, it's not actually a sky.

 

As far as the Khajiit go... they believe they were created from Mer (elves) by Azurah, who they are adamant is separate from Azura. Frankly though, I think their full of it, and the two are, in fact, the same god. Essentially, Azura was the divine version of a crazy cat lady, but instead of just one type of cat, she made 16 to keep things interesting...

 

The Argonians are something else entirely. We're not sure whether they are Men/Mer transformed into lizards, or lizards transformed into a humanoid shape, but we know the Hist did it. MK says we'll learn more in TES:O, but I doubt we'll get any concrete answers... The point being, the Argonians are made the way they are by sapient trees, and they may, in fact, be created and shaped individually and not be subject to normal rules for breeding.

[MostlyMuggie]

Elder Scrolls takes place in a world where magic is real. Unlike the real world where magic is first thought to be the reason for things, then later proved inaccurate by science, in Elder Scrolls, we can see gods and magic working right in front of us, and therefore it is proof. It’s not like thousands of years from now in the Elder Scrolls world, a bunch of scientists are going to say, "These creation myths are not true, a big bang happened blah blah blah". We won't see that because all the myths actually happen before our eyes.

On the topic of the beast races, they were created by gods. That’s it. They used magic and made it happen. There is no atheism in Elder Scrolls because all the gods have been proven to exist (Unless you count Sloads as atheists. However, it’s more like they just don't worship the existing gods).

 

Further more on Evolution in Edler Scrolls. This is a race description taken from Daggerfall.

Khajiit hail from the province of Elsweyr. You are part of a tawny-skinned people, extremely hardy, intelligent, and agile. Many Khajiit have taken to painting their faces to more resemble their legendary feline cousins, the predatory cats that hunt the great desert. Khajiit are on the whole excellent climbers, and adept in all the arts of the thief.

It can be accepted that though evolution may not exist, genetically, there are still classes like Family, Genus, and Species. (Also created by the gods)

Edited November 5, 2013 by MostlyMuggie

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Where biological reproduction and selection pressures exist there will be evolution.

Where genes are tinkered with, whether by God or Man, the pace of natural evolution is a rounding error.

[Lachdonin]

Where biological reproduction and selection pressures exist there will be evolution.

Where genes are tinkered with, whether by God or Man, the pace of natural evolution is a rounding error.

 

Again, we can't assume that selection pressures or even the basic functional blocks of evolutionary process exist in Tamriel. This is a world where eating something can literally turn you into it, where mortals may become gods and gods mortal. Where, literally, nothing exists and yet we still experience it. Conventional laws of physics and biology need not apply.

[Arimikami]

Where biological reproduction and selection pressures exist there will be evolution.

Where genes are tinkered with, whether by God or Man, the pace of natural evolution is a rounding error.

 

While it's true that eugenics can alter a species, it's also a very gradual process that takes multiple generations before it has any real noticeable impact on a species. To highlight this, stop and consider that even as we sit here typing these messages that there are humans on this planet that are a direct result of eugenics programs that were carried out on their ancestors and the end result is so small that the vast majority of people would never even stop to notice it unless it was pointed out to them and explained in detail.

[MostlyMuggie]

Well, thinking about it again, there are "proto-men" in the lore which are the ancestors of modern races. Races like Nedes for example. This would indicate some sort of evolution.

 

• All men seemed to have come from Atmora (north of Tamriel) and evolved into respective races: Nords, Imperials, Bretons, etc.
• All elves seem to have come from Aldmeris and evolved from the original Aldmer to different Mer races.
• Argonians came from the Hist (Black Marsh region)

We see some exceptions like Redguards which came from a completely different place from the other men (Yokuda), and Kothringi which are men indigenous to Tamriel (the continent). But we can also be lead to believe that some of the inhabitants of Atmora settled in Yokuda in prehistoric times…

 

Furthermore, we almost NEVER see examples of race cross breeding with the exception of the origin of Bretons which are half men, half Mer when the two peoples first collided in High Rock.

 

IN MY OPIONION either:
1. All the races were created from magic and gods and spread randomly.
2. All the races, (with beasts almost certainly being exceptions) came from a common human prehistoric ancestor. Different groups traveled to different places and evolved distinct features based on those locations like here on Earth.

 

Lots of thought went into these posts and I have left out many races, like the Sload and Kajhiit for example. Anyone one else have any ideas?

 

Most of my source comes from:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Races

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Places

 

EDIT: Really bad picture map chart I made to illustrate the movement and evolution. Probably made mistakes, did it in like 10 minutes.

http://i.imgur.com/hquRuvI.jpg

Edited November 6, 2013 by MostlyMuggie

[Lachdonin]

I think you've done a very good job there, MostlyMuggie... However, there are some things to add.

 

First, Men originated on Tamriel during the Dawn Era. During the Ehlnofex Wars, just prior to the Convention, either the continents were forcibly sundered, separating populations, or Men were relocated to other continents. Whatever the case, all life on Nirn originates on Tamriel.

 

Now, the key, sapient creatures to populate Nirn were the Ehlnofey, god-beings who joined the Aedra from their old domain, known as Old Ehlnofey. According to the Anuad, theirs was one of the 12 realms used to create Mundus, and they became trapped here like all the other Ada. They were beings of pure magic, with no form, though they eventually adopted particular shapes which allowed them to acclimate to their new 'prison'.

 

Anyway, as to how Men came to be, there are two stories. One is that the Wandering Ehlnofey became the race of Man, the other is that the goddess Kyne/Kinnareth created them at, or near the Throat of the world. There is a third theory, not directly mentioned in any lore (more of a fan theory, actually... but the line is always vague in TES) that tries to reconcile these two by saying Kyne shaped the Wanderers INTO Men at the Throat of the World.

 

Anyway, if Men are, in fact, descended from the Wanderers, they are directly related to the Mer. The Mer are the major population of surviving Ehlnofey, though they have degenerated into various shapes and forms due to divine intervention or exposure to particular magics. Likely, Aldmeris never existed, but is a philosophic point used to accentuate the fact that all Mer we once united.

 

The main driving force between the various sub-races of Man and Mer is, actually, magic. Be it divinely inspire or gradual exposure, magic seems to change the appearance and mind of living creatures. The Altmer are obsessed with maintaining the Dawn Magics, and have remained largely unchanged, while the Dwemer became quite different through their bid to actively control magic and the drum-beat of creation.

 

Similarly, the Redguard became different from their Nordic cousins through their particular styles of magic (possibly inherited from the Left-handed Elves). Particularly the powers wielded by the Ansei.

 

Anyway, the point is, on Tamriel, Magic is what drives racial change, not genetics. And it doesn't follow strict rules, leading to something inherently unpredictable.

[MostlyMuggie]

Thanks Lachdinin. I've spent a lot of time thinking of possiblities for how the races came to be, trying to connect it to the real world. (I am very much interested in evolution, always have been since I was a little kid)

 

My first post in this thread showed that the races were created by magic, and not directly from genetics/biology as it is in the real world. I completely agree with you in your thinking of how magic drives racial change, very nice way of putting it.

 

After all, there HUGE variables in Elder Scrolls that affect things that are not present in the real world. This is why I really commend the designers of the Lore in their attension to detail. They give the fans the ability to play detective and figure things out themselves.

Edited November 6, 2013 by MostlyMuggie