armady Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I made a video form of this topic if you want to watch it instead.Here's the link: Hello, Forum! Recently been playing a lot of Skyrim specifically an assassin character. While it is fun to play a stealthy killing type of playstyle I ran into some problems. This playthrough is as you guessed an evil one, which means I kill pretty much anyone might seem a bit stupid, but it's something that I like to do. My problem whilst playing with this character as you might've guess from the title of this topic is essential npcs. This problem where an npc runs out of HP and kneels down on their knee and then comes back to fight you again or flees. I think this is a huge problem in Skyrim because you feel detached from the rest of the world. No one should be immortal it makes you feel as in you're surrounded by gods with immortality more than anything else. I think if this wasn't a problem they would've expanded the game even more by adding alternative questlines to the game. I do like Skyrim and all of the other TES games a lot, but this is just one of the issues that I think the series should avoid. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks!
TheVampireDante Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Morrowind was good for this, you could kill anyone you wanted - just that if you killed a quest important character, it told you so and let you continue on in your "doomed world". There's plenty of mods that "rectify" the matter of essential characters by removing that status, but the problem does remain that any quests they held are now lost to you (without further mods or use of the console). Alternatives would be nice, but the time it would take for the developing team to implement such an array of choices properly would be far too much for it to be viable use of resources (voice acting, NPC creation/alteration, quest staging). Nice idea though, maybe a "backup NPC" that appeared with the quests or options loaded if the main instigator is "removed" from play.
MidevalGuy Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I am sure you are aware, but the reason for Essential NPCs is to ensure proper story progression & protection due to the new Radiant system introduced in Skyrim. In previous TES games the element of chance did not factor heavily into how quests and stories played out. In Skyrim, if an NPC quest giver is not essential there is a high probability he/she will be killed due to a random event such as a bandit raid, vampire attack, werewolf attack, etc. This prevents the player from interacting and receiving a quest if the NPC is dead. This doesn't matter for small side-quests, but NPCs needed to stay alive for the main quest is paramount since it is one continuous story (set of related quests) until the end. An example of why essential NPCs are... Well, essential... To the MQ is if you set any of the MQ characters like Ulfric, Delphine, Esbern, etc. to non-essential, there is a chance they can be killed on their way to various quest locations thus, stopping the MQ quest and all associated side-quests entirely. Essential NPCs exist to make sure the game can't be broken by random events that are out of the players control. I agree it is immersion breaking, but the trade off is a broken game (literally) if an "essential" NPC -- An NPC who is vital to a major questline like Tulius, or Balgruf -- Is killed by a random event and prevents the player from going any further.
MostlyMuggie Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I'm not sue why people are referencing Oblivion, tons of NPCs were essential and they didn't kneel down like in Skyrim, so they were completely invincible. As for essential NPCs, I think it is good for the game, as it ensures that all the quests/stories are completed. Remember, assassins don't just kill random people for no reason, they have a motive and a payment. That is what the Dark Brotherhood is for. That way you kill the NPCs that are able to die and still have quests function and you leave all the innocent alone.
Lachdonin Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Remember, assassins don't just kill random people for no reason, they have a motive and a payment. Unfortunately, most people I speak to think 'assassin' means mass-murderer. Anyway, Essential NPC's exist for a reason, as MidevalGuy said. It's because of the Radiant AI (which was actually implemented in Oblivion). Where in Morrowind NPCs just stood there like quest-vending-machines, starting with Oblivion people moved around. They went on walks, traveled between cities, got in scuffles with Wildlife etc. The implementation of immortal Essential characters was to prevent someone from randomly offing themselves by stumbling off a cliff of what not. As someone who has tried the whole 'No essential NPC' route, I can tell you that it is far more bothersome to have to babysit everyone than having essential NPCs. It's been some time, but I actually think Skyrim has LESS essential NPC's than Oblivion did... but a barely mentionable margin, mind you. I think it's something like 3... Anywho, Skyrim does implement something far better, which I hope they use in the future, called 'Protected'. When a protected NPC 'dies' they drop to their knees, as per Essential, but the PC is still able to kill them. All other damage sources are ignored. This means you still have final say, but the NPCs aren't at risk of being randomly eaten by wolves while out for their morning walk.
Draconious Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I had an idea that perhaps if at all possible someone could create a mod which makes NPC's killable once you've completed their entire quest line. That would at least make the game a little more realistic and immersive and wouldn't break the game either.
spookycandy Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Essential NPCs are essential in many cases. The others in this thread are correct. While I long for the day when the world is so dynamic that you will get different quests every play-through because of how the NPCs interact with the world around them (maybe they die, maybe they move, etc), it is not that day yet. Skyrim wasn't built for that. IMO this isn't game breaking at all. :tongue: It's game saving. I had an idea that perhaps if at all possible someone could create a mod which makes NPC's killable once you've completed their entire quest line. That would at least make the game a little more realistic and immersive and wouldn't break the game either. This would be a good trade-off.
Arimikami Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I sometimes think they should have thrown out the essential tag all together and just used the protected status for characters. I can understand them not wanting quests to be broken because of something like an integral NPC to a quest getting killed by bandits or a random vampire attack but, players should be able to off anyone and everything that they want to. Bethesda games have always had the freedom to play any way you want as a major selling point, after all, and if I decide that I want to kill an NPC and break a quest in the process, that's what saves and new playthroughs are for.
iocaster Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I had an idea that perhaps if at all possible someone could create a mod which makes NPC's killable once you've completed their entire quest line. That would at least make the game a little more realistic and immersive and wouldn't break the game either. There are a fair number of NPCs in the game that lose their 'essential' status as you progress quests that they're involved with. Here is a partial list that's missing some names since I know for a fact that Farengar and Sybille can both be killed after their respective quests. So it seems that Beth did try to work around the problem of 'unkillable' NPCs to a certain extent.
spookycandy Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I had an idea that perhaps if at all possible someone could create a mod which makes NPC's killable once you've completed their entire quest line. That would at least make the game a little more realistic and immersive and wouldn't break the game either. There are a fair number of NPCs in the game that lose their 'essential' status as you progress quests that they're involved with. Here is a partial list that's missing some names since I know for a fact that Farengar and Sybille can both be killed after their respective quests. So it seems that Beth did try to work around the problem of 'unkillable' NPCs to a certain extent. Yes, but this doesn't apply to all NPCs. It bugs out quite often, too.
Recommended Posts