MIDAIR V.A.T.S.

[South8028]

Holy carp! That is known as a "chimera" my friend! But as a Sagittarian I do like centaurs fine! :cool:

Well, you are much further down that rabbit hole than I (may ever hope to be) to say the least. :ninja: Then again... :pirate:

Seems like you fixed a lot of my gripes, but differently. :thumbsup:

 

FG shoulders are definitely way too narrow/central aka: small.

"UV according to CBBE" Does that prevent the "crawling up the back" shader effect?

Did you merge the bones in OS or dis/reassemble them in nifscope?

So, is the included skeleton usable by screen archer?

What do you use for reference shape / conversion then?

 

I'm about to put together a new build by new year, and everything I thought was going in there is getting updated or swapped out instead. :ermm:

 

Are you saying there is a new body type to displace the current FG, CBBE in the works?

 

Not to jack the thread here, this all makes for a better visual environment, tying it back to screen archer, and jumping stop-motion fight or flight camera / in-game controls. :yes:

If you downloaded it I will remove the links because TheBottomhoodofSteel by zaz gets really mad when his bones are used in conjunction with a knee fix. I welded the cbbe and fg vertices in 3ds max, uv aligned to the cbbe unvrap uvw texture. I collected the bones in nifscop, copied the weights in os. All weights from cbbe. Weights cbp, respectively from fg. Yes, one person is currently working on a free body with cbp zaz weights. TheBottomhoodofSteel allows him to use his bones. When he finishes, I don't know. He posts sketches (pre-mesh) of the body for discussion and criticism. I use this chimera because fg has a shoulder problem in the animations (animations deform the shoulders) and cbbe has a butt problem (buttock deformity). I don't know if these bones work well or badly in sam. I put the last zaz, then returned my skeleton and did not find any differences. The author sam could not explain to me exactly why zaz with offset nodes is needed and I returned my skeleton.

[Blinxys]

Thanks for that, I'm all set.

 

Edit: just wanted to post that reply as I was already late in response.

Opened up in nifscope, looks great, does this model have a tail, wings, weapon slots? O so Trippy... and useful!

It's like a swiss army knife of body parts! (So many niNodes)! :wacko:

 

Ok, so this has a problem that has plagued CBBE vs. FG: the wrist notch.

FG has straight wrist line and no hand nif AFAIK (which has it's own problems).

That means CBBE hands need to be forced in all cases, or there is a visible transparent gap.

 

I have my own skin texture and by whatever stroke of 1s and 0s it loaded directly to this model.

The point of mentioning this, is unlike yours mine does not include any (fake) shading on the _d.dds, (pretty all flat really).

That makes the underlaying shape (or lack) of very obvious.

 

Seeing this model just reminded me what I don't like about CBBE torso, the breasts are contrived (unnatural).

The crease is not a part of the natural form, its a result of mass vs. gravity. Baking it in as it does just makes it all the more immutable.

Similarly the pelvic crease should point up between the waist and belly button (+15-20 degrees, along outside of six-pack) not to the hip/thigh joint (outside).

This is doubly off and very apparent since it is the edge of textures intersecting (angle mismatch).

Neither competing models have discernable deltoids (shoulder muscle group) which would help define the underarm(pit), trapezoids, collarbone and sternum in turn.

It's like upper arm -> mush -> neck+head.

And I Can't find a Shoulder Blade in the lot of these points.

 

Not talking smack here, I have a background in this kind of stuff specifically.

Conversely, you are all up in that workflow, that is all really quite impressive! :thumbsup:

(Gives me something to shoot for. Would have taken me an eon to get to that point on my own, personally).

 

I'm curious to get in on that (new) body shop talk, as I'm beside myself with current body types/problems.

I'd hate to see it go up, and then say, oh... but... but... :sad:

 

BTW: someone made a reduced polygon FG mesh that gets under the dismemberment threshold, allowing for said effect.

 

Again, (for thread relevance analysis), this is all about a better PC model for animation of said effect requested by OP. (See: second image of Original Post).

Edited December 26, 2022 by Blinxys

[South8028]

Thanks for that, I'm all set.

 

Edit: just wanted to post that reply as I was already late in response.

Opened up in nifscope, looks great, does this model have a tail, wings, weapon slots? O so Trippy... and useful!

It's like a swiss army knife of body parts! (So many niNodes)! :wacko:

 

Ok, so this has a problem that has plagued CBBE vs. FG: the wrist notch.

FG has straight wrist line and no hand nif AFAIK (which has it's own problems).

That means CBBE hands need to be forced in all cases, or there is a visible transparent gap.

 

I have my own skin texture and by whatever stroke of 1s and 0s it loaded directly to this model.

The point of mentioning this, is unlike yours mine does not include any (fake) shading on the _d.dds, (pretty all flat really).

That makes the underlaying shape (or lack) of very obvious.

 

Seeing this model just reminded me what I don't like about CBBE torso, the breasts are contrived (unnatural).

The crease is not a part of the natural form, its a result of mass vs. gravity. Baking it in as it does just makes it all the more immutable.

Similarly the pelvic crease should point up between the waist and belly button (+15-20 degrees, along outside of six-pack) not to the hip/thigh joint (outside).

This is doubly off and very apparent since it is the edge of textures intersecting (angle mismatch).

Neither competing models have discernable deltoids (shoulder muscle group) which would help define the underarm(pit), trapezoids, collarbone and sternum in turn.

It's like upper arm -> mush -> neck+head.

And I Can't find a Shoulder Blade in the lot of these points.

 

Not talking smack here, I have a background in this kind of stuff specifically.

Conversely, you are all up in that workflow, that is all really quite impressive! :thumbsup:

(Gives me something to shoot for. Would have taken me an eon to get to that point on my own, personally).

 

I'm curious to get in on that (new) body shop talk, as I'm beside myself with current body types/problems.

I'd hate to see it go up, and then say, oh... but... but... :sad:

 

BTW: someone made a reduced polygon FG mesh that gets under the dismemberment threshold, allowing for said effect.

 

Again, (for thread relevance analysis), this is all about a better PC model for animation of said effect requested by OP. (See: second image of Original Post).

hands from cbbe should be. I don't see any seams. Maybe I forgot to put my hands in the archive? The whole body is sculpted in cbbe shape because it is the dress standard. Fg is also maximally unified with cbbe. Only the position of the knee and legs differs. The author had to make this change instead of adding a morph. Because the authors of cbbe are rumored to be very harmful. They are difficult to negotiate with if you want to use the cbbe form in zero sliders. I experimented with the shoulder. I tried to redo the edges, changed the vector, added and removed vertices. No difference. I think the reason for the bad shoulder is not the mesh, but the wrong position of the rig vertices when skinning in zero position. You need to completely redo the weights of the hands. Skinning should be done in a position with the arms raised as high as possible. Above shoulders. Then transfer these weights to vanilla. Edited December 26, 2022 by South8028

[Blinxys]

Don't get me wrong I commend what have done and high regard for your skills/talents. I'm especially grateful for your sharing this with me. :thumbsup:

 

OK, I loaded the female form in game. It looks pretty good overall. Improved in several subtle ways, just a little weird with some physics and certain positions. Indeed, I do not disagree there are issues with the shoulders. They got a little scrunched up (weird fold/edge) in hands up over head state. But other than it not being smooth it does add some needed mass to that area and that is good.

 

Understand, it's not your model I have any issue with, I think it's great. I like what you did, the presence of all those bones alone are Gold. Any issue I have is about the original body type models.

 

The hand/wrist thing is problematic since they use different texture layouts to begin with. FYI: The "wrist notch" is inherent to CBBE, (I only loaded the body not the hands/head). The wrist seam problem is counter-intuitive and unproductive since it is also not the "default/vanilla/EVB" hand/texture layout either. Just open the model in OS or Nifscope and you'll see what I'm talking about. On the outside/back of the wrist there is a triangular cutout. (Pointless but it's there). With default hands it leaves a texture "window" in that wedge space. Otherwise, all model entries must specify hand models in their forms (CK/FO4Edit) which is redundant and dare I say a bad a design choice. Incidentally, I have gone through great pains to remove any such references. If the arms terminated with a straight "sleeve" no one would ever know the difference, and it wouldn't matter one bit, but they had to do it like that for "some reason" which I have found to be terribly frustrating. :verymad:

 

Still tweaking with it and a few other things, will load the whole thing after tomorrow when I get a new environment built. Thanks again! You are a credit to the community! :cool:

 

PS: I have determined despite the above problems with CBBE it will have to do in my new build since I have been holding onto legacy FG 1.45 for too long, since 1.75 rollout was a disaster, and 1.85 is offsite, while conversions are "just one more thing to contend with". Thanks again!

[South8028]

Don't get me wrong I commend what have done and high regard for your skills/talents. I'm especially grateful for your sharing this with me. :thumbsup:

 

OK, I loaded the female form in game. It looks pretty good overall. Improved in several subtle ways, just a little weird with some physics and certain positions. Indeed, I do not disagree there are issues with the shoulders. They got a little scrunched up (weird fold/edge) in hands up over head state. But other than it not being smooth it does add some needed mass to that area and that is good.

 

Understand, it's not your model I have any issue with, I think it's great. I like what you did, the presence of all those bones alone are Gold. Any issue I have is about the original body type models.

 

The hand/wrist thing is problematic since they use different texture layouts to begin with. FYI: The "wrist notch" is inherent to CBBE, (I only loaded the body not the hands/head). The wrist seam problem is counter-intuitive and unproductive since it is also not the "default/vanilla/EVB" hand/texture layout either. Just open the model in OS or Nifscope and you'll see what I'm talking about. On the outside/back of the wrist there is a triangular cutout. (Pointless but it's there). With default hands it leaves a texture "window" in that wedge space. Otherwise, all model entries must specify hand models in their forms (CK/FO4Edit) which is redundant and dare I say a bad a design choice. Incidentally, I have gone through great pains to remove any such references. If the arms terminated with a straight "sleeve" no one would ever know the difference, and it wouldn't matter one bit, but they had to do it like that for "some reason" which I have found to be terribly frustrating. :verymad:

 

Still tweaking with it and a few other things, will load the whole thing after tomorrow when I get a new environment built. Thanks again! You are a credit to the community! :cool:

 

PS: I have determined despite the above problems with CBBE it will have to do in my new build since I have been holding onto legacy FG 1.45 for too long, since 1.75 rollout was a disaster, and 1.85 is offsite, while conversions are "just one more thing to contend with". Thanks again!

I've got ashamed. You overestimate me. I didn't do anything difficult. About the wrist. In my opinion it doesn't matter at all. There is no difference between a straight and triangular wrist if the seams fit properly. But making a straight wrist is not difficult. You just have to make separate hands that are not compatible with cbbe and fg. There is no difference between fg 1.45 and 1.75, except for the cbp of the chest and abdomen bones. 1.75 added cbp bones instead of animated chest bones and added animated belly bones. Mesh 1.45 and 1.75 are the same. I already wrote that "I like" shoulders in fg. cbbe has bad shoulders, but fg has terrible shoulders. ) Raising the fold in the hip (making it more human) is impossible. To do this, you will need to insert into the skeleton separate bones for the pelvis, violating the vanilla hierarchy. This will break all animations. Beth refused to make a separate gender skeleton like in Skyrim. The skeleton in fo4 is not originally designed for gender troubles. So real female bodies will never appear in fo4. Unfortunately. )

When the arms are raised, all meshes experience deformations of the shoulders due to incorrect animation. The fg rigs have special shoulder "handles" for this kind of animation, but the animators don't use those handles (the cbbe rig has them too, but they're worse). The animators simply raise their arms up without paying attention to the bones of the shoulders. I myself did not immediately discover this moment and did the first animations illiterately. Then I discovered that the shoulders can be straightened after raising the arms. But existing animations cannot be fixed.

https://disk.yandex.ru/a/3Ol26OuwEcXwvA

Edited December 27, 2022 by South8028

[Blinxys]

Hey, we all deserve more credit than we get pal. :laugh:

Nothing in computers is hard of itself, a wave of a mouse, a few keystrokes, not too rough as labor goes. But it's a matter of levels, and like I said you are all up in there.

 

The problem with FG 1.75 deployment was the conversion form was a wreck, had a strange offset so nothing fit or could be made to fit "off the rack" so to speak. And they pulled 1.45 simultaneously, along with a number of other crucial issues without updating Any documentation, IIRC. So everyone was up in arms, (forgive the relevant word play). Will have to take a look. (Maybe I slipped 1.75 skeleton into 1.45 mesh). I don't recollect the details, only the struggles, of that time. Since then have been managing with most conversions ok, not sure what, if anything, is missing though.

 

As for the "fold in the hip is slightly misinterpreted from what I said. I'm talking about crease between thigh and pelvic bone "basin". Its good in FG, in CBBE it's as if early pregnancy or herniated. Just too wide by default, should be more a "V" shape, less of a wide and flat "U" shape. (I think that's all in the mesh).

 

Looking at your offsite link and seeing it for myself, the "shoulder bone" which is taking the place of two human bones is too long. Conversely, the upper arm bone is too short. (should intersect at the edge of the circle in your image). This is effectively where the lack of shape/collar bone comes from.

 

Have you seen Discrete Female Skeleton ? Haven't tried it myself yet, reviews well, what are your thoughts on that? Our conversation really did get me to realize what you were saying about real female form of my own accord. There are only slight differences between male female skeletons, mostly relative length of upper/lower arm and leg bones, and hip (femur to pelvis) width and waist height. Those are subtleties that can be worked out mostly by way of sliders. (I.e. knee height, but that requires a new knee fix to take up the "slack").

 

Now the cbbe wrist triangle, when I get a chance I'll post images (eventually), took a lot from me to figure where the problem was and how to fix at that time. CBBE uses its own hands, FG uses default vanilla from what I've gathered. So CBBE body/clothing models with no cbbe specific hand models all get "the notch" which is all FG and EVB proper. Therein lay the rub. :mellow:

 

Thank you for your time and insights, truly is appreciated. You have a lot figured out and are helping me get it sorted as well. Thanks again!

 

So bottoms line (relevance to OP), Can use Screen Archer outside of (suggested) requirements, Yippee! :D

[South8028]

Hey, we all deserve more credit than we get pal. :laugh:

Nothing in computers is hard of itself, a wave of a mouse, a few keystrokes, not too rough as labor goes. But it's a matter of levels, and like I said you are all up in there.

 

The problem with FG 1.75 deployment was the conversion form was a wreck, had a strange offset so nothing fit or could be made to fit "off the rack" so to speak. And they pulled 1.45 simultaneously, along with a number of other crucial issues without updating Any documentation, IIRC. So everyone was up in arms, (forgive the relevant word play). Will have to take a look. (Maybe I slipped 1.75 skeleton into 1.45 mesh). I don't recollect the details, only the struggles, of that time. Since then have been managing with most conversions ok, not sure what, if anything, is missing though.

 

As for the "fold in the hip is slightly misinterpreted from what I said. I'm talking about crease between thigh and pelvic bone "basin". Its good in FG, in CBBE it's as if early pregnancy or herniated. Just too wide by default, should be more a "V" shape, less of a wide and flat "U" shape. (I think that's all in the mesh).

 

Looking at your offsite link and seeing it for myself, the "shoulder bone" which is taking the place of two human bones is too long. Conversely, the upper arm bone is too short. (should intersect at the edge of the circle in your image). This is effectively where the lack of shape/collar bone comes from.

 

Have you seen Discrete Female Skeleton ? Haven't tried it myself yet, reviews well, what are your thoughts on that? Our conversation really did get me to realize what you were saying about real female form of my own accord. There are only slight differences between male female skeletons, mostly relative length of upper/lower arm and leg bones, and hip (femur to pelvis) width and waist height. Those are subtleties that can be worked out mostly by way of sliders. (I.e. knee height, but that requires a new knee fix to take up the "slack").

 

Now the cbbe wrist triangle, when I get a chance I'll post images (eventually), took a lot from me to figure where the problem was and how to fix at that time. CBBE uses its own hands, FG uses default vanilla from what I've gathered. So CBBE body/clothing models with no cbbe specific hand models all get "the notch" which is all FG and EVB proper. Therein lay the rub. :mellow:

 

Thank you for your time and insights, truly is appreciated. You have a lot figured out and are helping me get it sorted as well. Thanks again!

 

So bottoms line (relevance to OP), Can use Screen Archer outside of (suggested) requirements, Yippee! :D

There are no bones in the image. These are "handles". "Handles" in a rig are meshes or dummys attached to an IK (inverse kinematics control point that links the bones in reverse order of the hierarchy). This is done to make animation easier. This is about the same as the "fork" of the puppet. By grasping a "handle" such as a hand, you can control a whole garland of hand bones. There is no need to animate each bone individually. Inverse kinematics makes character animation mechanics relatively easy. Edited December 27, 2022 by South8028

[Blinxys]

Ok, forgive my verbiage, you make a good technical point. Nevertheless the point is the same re: length/point of intersection.

 

Used to mess with IK a bunch when 3ds MAX was a DOS program, haven't had access to it since it got dumbed down updated and window-fied.

Used Truespace a lot until it got rewritten and then sucked into MS Holens, or whatever that is.

 

Ironically, a lot of good skills/tools are cast out (repeatedly) for sake of so-called progre$$. :rolleyes:

 

Trying to sift through all the descriptions and requirements for SAM, what a load of carp!

It can function, I guess, but a lot of Sqr17s heuristics are false, or incorrect assumptions and cartoonish by nature. :yucky:

By saying that I'm being generous, Its all a load order of drift in the wrong direction IMHO. :teehee:

(It will all need a revamp or start looking like Dali's horses soon enough).

Edited December 27, 2022 by Blinxys