Skyrim Crashing - Requesting Mod Advice

[seth1983]

After just accepting that I'm starting over last night I'm feeling a little more optimistic today, even eager to have a fresh start and avoid the mistakes I made both in my regular gameplay and my modding. :smile:

 

I think I'm going to go the route of using the STEPS and GEMS approach, and see which of my mods overlap with theirs and use that to narrow down my list. I won't mirror their mod line-up but I think that should give me a stable place to start.

 

Thanks for the link to the "back to pristine" process for Skyrim. I'll follow that exactly as written.

 

I agree that I really need to discover which mod is causing the issue, but at this point I don't know what else to try to narrow it down. My game is crashing rather reliably (within 5 minutes) seemingly regardless of my loaded mods. I don't even have time to experiment much, so I'm thinking blackbox testing just isn't going to cut it. I feel at this point that I would need a knowledge of scripts and reading through each line of my files that far surpasses my own by miles, just to get to the bottom of this.

 

My approach will be a start from the STEPS and GEMS lists, and then a methodical test for each mod to see which causes my papyrus to go crazy, performance to drop (though that has never been an issue for me, my game never stutters or freezes) or CTDs (shudder) to occur.

 

I have also read that Skyrim (if you want to mod it) should not be placed in the Program Files (x86) folder that Steam defaults. Is this accurate? What should I do instead if I want to remove future issues with this?

 

I also want to apologize for my reaction to switching to this MO solution. My first modding attempts with NMM ended in disaster but I think the bulk of the blame for that rests with my adding and removing too many on one save, regardless of my following the advised methods of doing so. I was clinging to NMM because I feel I've made my mistakes with that program, so I can move forward into a more informed modding with it.

But... I think I need to have faith in your suggestions, you've kept me from going completely mad thus far, so I'm willing to give your ideas a try.

 

As the first step to doing exactly that, do you have links to resources you'd recommend? The correct download source, maybe a help guide, some videos that maybe teach the newbie modder how to use it intelligently?

 

Edit: I found MO on Nexus, along with a link to a guide to use it provided on the STEP page. Is it ok if I ask you questions about using it, and post them here?

For example, I don't understand what this quote from the Compatibility section is telling me...

 

 

 

Wrye Bash and Fallout Variants of it are a bit more difficult. They only work if you're using a 32-bit python or the standalone version.

MO is compatible to Script Extenders insofar as they work alongside each other. However, if you're using "Script Extender" as the load mechanism
(see above) you cannot install *se plugins in MO because *SE loads its plugin before MO even gets activated to create the virtual data-directory.

 

Does this mean it won't work with Wrye Bash (which my mods require to work together)? I don't follow the python reference.

And I do use SKSE to load my game so how will I be affected? How do I know if something is an SE plugin?

Edited January 15, 2014 by seth1983

[ripple]

I don't use MO anymore so I haven't been following its development (I switched back to NMM a few months ago, but not because I didn't like MO or anything of that sort...it would take too long to go into the reasons...but it's nothing bad about MO). So I am not sure if there is a video tutorial series now....although I do recall one was in the making at the time.

 

The biggest 'roadblock' I found for most new MO users switching from 'traditional' mod managers like NMM is how MO handles mod installation in an entirely different way.

 

Traditional mod managers install mod plugins and resources into the game data folder. This means when there are conflicting resources (usually only for mods packaged with loose files), the mod installed later will overwrite duplicate files of the mod installed earlier (so installation order matters in such instances). In the case of NMM (and Wrye Bash), the mod manager will 'remember' the installation order so that if you should later choose to uninstall one of the mods with conflicting resources, the mod manager will 'restore' the files that were overwritten, so that you will not end up installing both mods and creating issues.

 

That is no longer needed for MO, because MO does not install mod plugins and resource files into the game data folder. It installs them into their own independent, isolated folders, then 'reassembles' them into a 'virtual data folder' when you launch MO (and through MO, you launch the game). This is how MO is able to keep a 'pristine vanilla game installation' no matter how many mods you install (since nothing is ever installed into the game data folder), and also allow multiple users to play on one Skyrim installation with different combinations of mods (MO allows for multiple user 'profiles'). MO thus also allow users to change mod installation order -after- the mods have been installed, as easily as one changes the load order of plugins (as an additional perk, MO will also display any resources that are conflicting with each other, and tell you which mod they belong to).

 

For some users coming from traditional mod managers, it takes a while to wrap their head around this. Since the operation of mods require MO's 'virtual data folder', it means that any modding utilities that (traditionally) needs to scan the game data folder and poll plugins or resources (such as Wrye Bash, TES5Edit, and BOSS), must subsequently be run in MO's environment so that they will scan MO's 'virtual data folder' (and poll the data they need) rather than the default game data folder (which is maintained in a 'vanilla state' with no mods or mod resources installed). MO handles this by letting users set up profiles for those utilities so they can be run in MO's environment.

 

Edited Note: keep in mind that some 'mods' should not be installed using MO (or any mod managers, for that matter), such as SKSE, TES5Edit, etc., since they are not really 'mods', but modding utilities.

 

The reason some users experience issues understanding this is because they have experience with traditional mod managers, and have developed an understanding about how mods installations are to be done and the assumption that it is the only way to do it. But I've found that once a user gets past this conceptual 'roadblock', everything else falls into place and they have a much easier time grasping the various functions of MO and why they are there.

 

The other recommendation I have is just to start with a small load order (say, 20 mods). But most importantly, you also need to verify the 'quality' of these mods. I am running maybe...180 mods in my setup right now, but that is based one a year's accumulation, and I treat my load order like a temple. Anything that I might want to 'keep' in the load order after installing to test it, must be scrutinized. I check plugins, scripts (when source files are available), open meshes in NifSkope (because a long time ago, in another Bethesda game, a corrupt armour mesh cause me no end of grief and took me a long time to track down), to scrutinize the integrity of the mod and ascertain the mod author's level of expertise. I also make my own custom compatibility patches (because load order does not actually 'resolve' mod conflicts, just mitigates their effects). Testing a mod in game is a good way to verify the quality of a mod but is generally not sufficient. 'Looking under the hood' is still the best method.

 

If you have time to sink into learning how to read and interpret plugin records in TES5Edit, I'd certainly recommend it (although I find that most users do not). There's no real documentation on this (and most 'modding enthusiasts' generally learn by experience, and is one of the ways people move into the realm of creating their own mods), but STEPS does provide some basic reading material that may help (I think neovalen has a guide on how he made compatibility patches for his modded setup--but keep in mind that is 'his' custom modded setup). Using TES5Edit to make your own compatibility patches to merge conflicting records that cannot be merged via Wyre Bash (which primarily handles just leveled lists) isn't as difficult as it may seem, but it can be time consuming depending on how many mods you use, how many of them conflict, and what sort of conflicts.

Edited January 15, 2014 by ripple

[ripple]

 

Edit: I found MO on Nexus, along with a link to a guide to use it provided on the STEP page. Is it ok if I ask you questions about using it, and post them here?

For example, I don't understand what this quote from the Compatibility section is telling me...

 

 

 

Wrye Bash and Fallout Variants of it are a bit more difficult. They only work if you're using a 32-bit python or the standalone version.

 

MO is compatible to Script Extenders insofar as they work alongside each other. However, if you're using "Script Extender" as the load mechanism

(see above) you cannot install *se plugins in MO because *SE loads its plugin before MO even gets activated to create the virtual data-directory.

 

Does this mean it won't work with Wrye Bash (which my mods require to work together)? I don't follow the python reference.

And I do use SKSE to load my game so how will I be affected? How do I know if something is an SE plugin?

The Wrye Bash for Skyrim team has publicly stated that they will not explicitly support MO, which just means that Tannin will have to take on the responsibility of making MO compatible with Wrye Bash. This not an issue as you should be able to run Wrye Bash in MO assuming things are properly set up. The only problem I encountered with Wrye Bash when I did use MO, was that Wrye Bash had updated with some changes, and I could no longer generate a Bashed Patch while running Wrye Bash in MO, until Tannin updated MO to accommodate the change (there was a couple of days lapse, but that's reasonable).

 

The message about SKSE plugins is just basically what I added in the 'edited notes' in my previous reply, which is that some 'mods' should not be installed via a mod manager (whether MO or NMM), but should be installed manually, such as SKSE, SKSE plugins (plugins here referring not to mod plugins like esm's or esp's, but SKSE dll 'plugins'), Wrye Bash, BOSS, etc, since they are not really 'mods' but modding utilities.

[seth1983]

*Deep breath* Ok. Here I go then... MO and a fresh install it is. Wish me luck. :tongue:

 

Update: Question about MO then... Should I never run into the issue of a corrupted save due to adding and removing mods in the future? Or is using MO really just making the return to a "pristine vanilla skyrim" easier when things mess up again?

Edited January 15, 2014 by seth1983

[ripple]

 

Update: Question about MO then... Should I never run into the issue of a corrupted save due to adding and removing mods in the future? Or is using MO really just making the return to a "pristine vanilla skyrim" easier when things mess up again?

No, that can still potentially happen. All previous 'risks' about modding still applies. If you remove a mod with continually updating scripts without first halting the script, you will have a spammy Papyrus log that can lead to save game 'corruption.' Installing badly done mods will still cause trouble, too much 'pack rat' will still bloat your saves, etc. So you still need to exercise 'caution.'

[seth1983]

Ok. That's what I thought.

 

I've started by downloading 22 of the STEPS mods. I've got about 1/2 installed and I've run across my first puzzle with the new manager.

 

When I tried to install SKYUI, I received a warning that SKSE scripts are missing and I need to install them. But I already installed SKSE into the skyrim folder, AND I followed the MO steps to add it as an executable from within MO. So not sure what that means... I just hit the "install" option at the bottom right of the warning window and it just went ahead and installed. Not sure if this will end up being a missing master issue???

 

Secondly, when I tried installing Quality World Map with MO I received a message that there were no data files. I was able to open the readme through the window MO displayed, and it advised that the files had to be in the data/interface directory... so within that MO window that had popped, I created a new directory beneath the default "data", named it Interface, and then MO said it looked good. The red turned green and it let me install, but I have no idea what I actually did... ahem.

 

I'm worried I'm creating errors, but so far MO still says "looks good" when I hover over the warning symbol at the top right.

Edited January 16, 2014 by seth1983

[ripple]

Ok. That's what I thought.

 

When I tried to install SKYUI, I received a warning that SKSE scripts are missing and I need to install them. But I already installed SKSE into the skyrim folder, AND I followed the MO steps to add it as an executable from within MO. So not sure what that means... I just hit the "install" option at the bottom right of the warning window and it just went ahead and installed. Not sure if this will end up being a missing master issue???

 

Secondly, when I tried installing Quality World Map with MO I received a message that there were no data files. I was able to open the readme through the window MO displayed, and it advised that the files had to be in the data/interface directory... so within that MO window that had popped, I created a new directory beneath the default "data", named it Interface, and then MO said it looked good. The red turned green and it let me install, but I have no idea what I actually did... ahem.

 

1) It's been a while since I've used MO...my memory is a bit hazy, but I do recall that at various times, there were issues with installing SkyUI in MO. You might need to unpack the BSA when asked while you are installing SkyUI. See if that makes the error message go away. You can also just test in game and see if it's working regardless of the error message.

 

2) Two possible causes: sometimes, mod archives are not properly packed with the 'correct' directory structure. Occasionally, instead of packing stuff into '/data/...', or just 'MyMod.esp', some mod archives will include an additional directory, like '/MyMod/data/...' For some reason, MO does not handle this as well as NMM, and cannot detect the '/data/...' directory nested inside the additional directory. So you will have to use the window that pops up to navigate the mod archive and select the '/data/....' directory. After that, MO will tell you that everything is ok.

 

The other issue that occasionally occurs is when mods come with optional plugins, but are not FOMOD ready, and where the mod author expects the users to install the mod manually. When you open the mod archive in WinRar or 7zip, the directory structure for such mod archives may look something like this:

 

/Main Plugin/ (and this directory would contain the main mod plugin or base module)

/Optional plugin 1/

/Optional plugin 2/

/Optional 1 and 2 merged plugin/

 

or without directories at all, something that looks like this..

 

MainPlugin.esm

MainPluginPart2.esp

OptionalPlugin1.esp

OptionalPlugin2.esp

 

With FOMOD, you get pop-up windows asking you if you want install the optionals (or asking if you have the DLCs, in cases where the 'optionals' are DLC support plugins or DLC versions of the mod's main plugin). Without FOMOD, this creates problems. Neither NMM nor MO can properly handle mods packaged like this. With NMM, it just dumps everything into your game data folder. For example, I've seen countless 'halp me!' BOSS logs where the users have not read the readme, where the mod author says not to use multiple versions of a particular plugin, and the BOSS log will invariably show the user has installed and activated all of them, because they had no understanding of directory structures and simply thought if one installs something through a mod manager, everything would be ok.

 

With MO, you will get the 'error' window you described, asking you where the mod's '/data/' folder is. In this instance, you can't just navigate and look for a '/data/' folder because there isn't one. So what you can do is this:

 

Use WinRar, 7zip, or WinZip to repackage the mod with the correct directory structure, then place the repackaged mod archive into the directory where MO stores mod archives. Then you can install it normally through MO. So for example, if a mod archive is not FOMOD-ready, and comes with 1 main plugin + 2 optional plugins, and the mod author states not to use both optional plugins (but to use 1 or none), then you can extract the contents of the mod, move the main plugin and the optional plugin of your choice into a '/data/' folder you created somewhere, then repackage that directory using a compression utility, so that when MO tries to install it, a) it will not ask you to locate the '/data/' folder because it's in the archive, and b) you won't install stuff you are not suppose to install. And obviously, when you repackage the mod, you would include the resource files as well (BSA or loose files, if there are any).

Edited January 16, 2014 by ripple

[seth1983]

That... actually made sense to me. I don't know how or why, but somehow I understood that. I guess the last few months of taking your advice and spending hours trying to fix my Skyrim taught me something after all. Haha.

 

Thanks, I'll give that a go...

Edited January 16, 2014 by seth1983

[ripple]

No problem. Remember that you only need to repackage mods that come with optional plugins -and- are not FOMOD-ready (so this is a relatively rare occurrence). If a mod with optional plugins is FOMOD-ready, or where the optionals are provided as separate downloads, you would not need to repackage them this way.

Edited January 16, 2014 by ripple

[seth1983]

Okay, so as an update, I now have a "starter" list of mods. Mainly cosmetic, a few utility, and most recommended by STEP. I've played for roughly 2 hours - no CTD, and papyrus log isn't even being created. I'm not sure if this is an error in and of itself, or if papyrus only logs if there are issues. But, no logs.

 

Here is my current Mod list according to BOSS:

 

 

 

• Skyrim.esm Active
• Update.esm Active
  • Bash Tag suggestion(s): {{BASH: Delev, Relev}}
• Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp Active
  • Bash Tag suggestion(s): {{BASH: Delev, Relev}}
• Dawnguard.esm Active
  • Bash Tag suggestion(s): {{BASH: Delev, Relev}}
• Unofficial Dawnguard Patch.esp Active
  • Bash Tag suggestion(s): {{BASH: Delev, Relev}}
• HearthFires.esm Active
• Unofficial Hearthfire Patch.esp Active
• Dragonborn.esm Active
• Unofficial Dragonborn Patch.esp Active
  • Bash Tag suggestion(s): {{BASH: Delev}}
• Falskaar.esm Active
• ClimatesOfTamriel.esm Active
• SPIKE.esm Active
• HighResTexturePack01.esp Active
• HighResTexturePack02.esp Active
• HighResTexturePack03.esp Active
• Brawl Bugs CE.esp Active
• Unofficial High Resolution Patch.esp Active
• Morning Fogs.esp Active
• SplashofRain.esp Active
• ExpandedSnowSystems-CoT.esp Active
• randomthunder.esp Active
• mintylightningmod.esp Active
• MintyLightningMod_COT_Patch.esp Active
• Skyrim Shadow Striping Fix.esp Active
• AMatterOfTime.esp Active
• Auto Unequip Ammo.esp Active
• BLESSINGS - Altar Descriptions.esp Active
• Skyrim Flora Overhaul.esp Active
• WetandCold.esp Active
• WetandCold - Ashes.esp Active
• Footprints.esp Active
• Footprints - Ash.esp Active
• SkyUI.esp Active
• iHUD.esp Active
• Elemental Staves.esp Active
• Lock Overhaul.esp Active
• Run For Your Lives.esp Active
• When Vampires Attack.esp Active
• The Paarthurnax Dilemma.esp Active
• Acquisitive Soul Gems.esp Active
• AchieveThat.esp Active
• Distant DetailHF.esp Active
• FalskaarDawnguard.esp Active
• Guard Dialogue Overhaul.esp Active
  • Note: Do not clean. "Dirty" edits are intentional and required for the mod to function.
• SFO - Expanded Diversity.esp Active
  • Note: Uninstall old version of Skyrim Flora Overhaul if using SFO - Expanded Diversity.esp
• Convenient Horses.esp Active
  • Note: Do not clean. "Dirty" edits are intentional and required for the mod to function.
• UnreadBooksGlow.esp Active
• aMidianborn_Skyforge_Weapons.esp Active
• ClimatesOfTamriel-Dawnguard-Patch.esp Active
• ClimatesOfTamriel-Dragonborn-Patch.esp Active
• ClimatesOfTamriel Falskaar.esp Active
• ClimatesOfTamriel-Dungeons-Hazardous.esp Active
  • Incompatible with: Realistic Lighting Overhaul
• ClimatesOfTamriel-Interiors-Cold.esp Active
  • Incompatible with: Realistic Lighting Overhaul
• ClimatesOfTamriel-Nights-Level-4.esp Active
• Supreme Storms - Cot Version.esp Active
• CoT-WeatherPatch.esp Active
• CoT-WeatherPatch_DB.esp Active
• CoT-WeatherPatch_Snow-40.esp Active
• CoT-WeatherPatch_SupStorms.esp Active
• CoT-WeatherPatch_ESS.esp Active
• moveitLWT.esp
• WATER.esp Active
• WATER Plants.esp Active
• WATER DG.esp Active
• WATER DB Waves.esp Active
• WATER Falskaar.esp Active
• Bashed Patch, 0.esp Active

 

 

 

Thus far I've noted only one quirk... When I first encountered a group of Companions (Vilkas and Aela the Huntress I identified, the third one's identity was lost to me as he moved out of sight as I listened to the dialogue from Vilkas to be exact) certain items they carried were just a plain uniform light blue color. It was Aela's weapon (a sword I think I recall) and the nameless fellow carried a shield that was the same.

I recall from my reading that this is likely an issue with the game just not being able to find the textures, and is likely not a big deal at all, I just need to change where they're placed in the folders. Any suggestions on doing that properly?

 

I'm about to try adding a few more mods - Interesting NPCs, Inconsequential NPCs, Wearable Lanterns, Bandolier, Immersive Armors, and Immersive Weapons.