Chem quest discussion forum

[pippinstrano]

I am really excited to participate in expanding this mod. I need to look at the existing crafting formulas you have and what precusers you have already added. The recipies I've mentioned, to clarify, are extremely simplified and leave out the processing involved....but then the only things the mod really needs to be concerned with are the inputs and outputs of each process.

 

As a short aside -

I love Fallout. I've been playing it since the original Fallout, and I can't wait for Fallout 4. I missed Tactics and BOS, but I've played all the others. The reason I mention this is one thing I've always felt was missing was any idea of what most of these folks are doing when they are not shooting at each other. It gets touched on, just around the edges, but it is really lacking. I mentioned ammonia earlier. I had no idea until recently, but apparently worldwide production of ammonia outstrips almost every other chemical being produced by a wide margin. What does this have to do with anything? It means that the NCR is going to probably have ammonia plants (as well as plants producing sulferic acid and lime, just about the only chemicals that are produced in even larger quantities than ammonia). If New Vegas has any local industry of its own, it probably would have some of this as well. Oh, did I mention how important salt derivitives are? And no one is harvesting the salt flats? It is over 200 years from the nuclear war.....society would not be able to subsist off the scraps of the ancients that long.

 

Mods like this actually provides a mechanism for filling in some of these missing elements. And not just relating to drugs. By adding a simplified list of precursers to the environment, crafting and production of other items can become a bit more believable (not realistic, I don't think that is the goal, just believable), even if only in a Fallout sort of way. I would love to see the list of precusurs used as stock for new building location mods (industrial sites, mines that actually produce something, etc), quest mods, and so on.

[Befo]

Here is a link to the Alcohol Still mod I mentioned. It looks like it has open permissions if you want to use the activators from it for stills. You would probably want to alter some of the recipes and tweak some of the still locations to work with CAM, of course.

Alcohol Still - http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/40140/?

 

 

 

For weaponizing the drugs, you may want to take a look at this mod (also with open permissions).

Poisoned Darts - http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/36456/?

 

It uses a syringe model fired by .22LR weapons, but the weapon part could be tweaked. This would at least give a way to deliver the drugs to a person from range. It also two optional .esps that kind of go with what you're doing. Reuse Needles.esp lets you get an empty syringe back when using certain vanilla injectible drugs, and Loot the Paralyzed.esp let's you loot unconscious and paralyzed NPCs that you've darted (or drugged for CAM.)

 

 

 

Reading the future plans section of your Description, you mention adding a Triage system. What are your plans in that area? There are a lot of medical overhauls out there, with a lot of different ways of changing the medical system.

 

EDIT: I suppose I could throw my hat in the ring for some minor voice acting, but it should be noted I don't have anything in the way of recording equipment/software. Just a headset mic.

[senterpat]

@befo

Thanks for the link, I've already made the still myself though :P Today is my Friday, so I have the next two days to work on this.

I've already weaponized the chems, using a dart gun, or handheld syringes.

The triage system I have almost completed, it's all included in the mod already, just none of it is active. The system is basically my take on the MGS triage system in Snake Eater. Meaning you get shot, theres a chance the bullet is embedded in you, meaning you have to pull it out, clean and suture the wound. Burns would have to be treated and bandaged, broken bones would have to be set. The reason it's not active is because I switched over to Skyrim modding and never put the finishing touches on it. I still have to add all the new stuff, ointments, bandages, etc. and have to make new textures for them all at the very least.

 

@pippinstrano

I look forward to hearing your ideas, I think we're like minded, I love mods that add a bunch of random new things. I do agree that humanity would have had to reestablish some of its former function, such as factories and the like. While I wouldn't mind having new interiors that logically contain this stuff, I hate designing interiors in NV, the skyrim CK got me spoiled, and making interiors in NV is just too tedious. I've got a quick list of precursors here:

 

Brake Fluid

Baking Soda

Matchbox
Butane
Anhydrous Ammonia
Iodine
Hydrochloric Acid
Lye
Ethyl Ether

In the works:

Chloroform

Phosphorous pentachloride

Toluene

Sulfuric acid

 

Of course I'd make more if the need arose :D

[GxRay]

I am really excited to participate in expanding this mod. I need to look at the existing crafting formulas you have and what precusers you have already added. The recipies I've mentioned, to clarify, are extremely simplified and leave out the processing involved....but then the only things the mod really needs to be concerned with are the inputs and outputs of each process.

 

As a short aside -

I love Fallout. I've been playing it since the original Fallout, and I can't wait for Fallout 4. I missed Tactics and BOS, but I've played all the others. The reason I mention this is one thing I've always felt was missing was any idea of what most of these folks are doing when they are not shooting at each other. It gets touched on, just around the edges, but it is really lacking. I mentioned ammonia earlier. I had no idea until recently, but apparently worldwide production of ammonia outstrips almost every other chemical being produced by a wide margin. What does this have to do with anything? It means that the NCR is going to probably have ammonia plants (as well as plants producing sulferic acid and lime, just about the only chemicals that are produced in even larger quantities than ammonia). If New Vegas has any local industry of its own, it probably would have some of this as well. Oh, did I mention how important salt derivitives are? And no one is harvesting the salt flats? It is over 200 years from the nuclear war.....society would not be able to subsist off the scraps of the ancients that long.

 

Mods like this actually provides a mechanism for filling in some of these missing elements. And not just relating to drugs. By adding a simplified list of precursers to the environment, crafting and production of other items can become a bit more believable (not realistic, I don't think that is the goal, just believable), even if only in a Fallout sort of way. I would love to see the list of precusurs used as stock for new building location mods (industrial sites, mines that actually produce something, etc), quest mods, and so on.

 

Mate, I'm not trying to bash you or anything, but I'm a chemist and your synth for LSD is so far off the mark as to be nearly totally inaccurate. I understand simplification, but there comes a point when something becomes so oversimplified that it no longer resembles what it originally was. Let's leave it at "LSD synthesis is, for all intents and puroses, infeasible to implement".

 

Also, in reference to your earlier post about piperidine being a "loss", piperidine, piperine, and piperonal are all easily extracted from the common black pepper, most techniques requiring basic potassium-based reagents and few apparatus.

 

See:

https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/3base/piperonal.pepper/piperine.pepper/index.html

 

Of extra-importance here (in my biased opinion, of course) is the ability to use piperonal as a precursor in MDA/MDMA production. Take a look.

 

 

What's that? A methylenedioxy group on the 3 and 4 positions of benzaldehyde? 3,4-Methylenedioxybenzaldehyde, you say? Why, that's only a substitution away from MDA/MDMA.

 

As you can see here, pepper is a wonderful plant.

 

Edited January 14, 2014 by GxRay

[senterpat]

 

 

I am really excited to participate in expanding this mod. I need to look at the existing crafting formulas you have and what precusers you have already added. The recipies I've mentioned, to clarify, are extremely simplified and leave out the processing involved....but then the only things the mod really needs to be concerned with are the inputs and outputs of each process.

 

As a short aside -

I love Fallout. I've been playing it since the original Fallout, and I can't wait for Fallout 4. I missed Tactics and BOS, but I've played all the others. The reason I mention this is one thing I've always felt was missing was any idea of what most of these folks are doing when they are not shooting at each other. It gets touched on, just around the edges, but it is really lacking. I mentioned ammonia earlier. I had no idea until recently, but apparently worldwide production of ammonia outstrips almost every other chemical being produced by a wide margin. What does this have to do with anything? It means that the NCR is going to probably have ammonia plants (as well as plants producing sulferic acid and lime, just about the only chemicals that are produced in even larger quantities than ammonia). If New Vegas has any local industry of its own, it probably would have some of this as well. Oh, did I mention how important salt derivitives are? And no one is harvesting the salt flats? It is over 200 years from the nuclear war.....society would not be able to subsist off the scraps of the ancients that long.

 

Mods like this actually provides a mechanism for filling in some of these missing elements. And not just relating to drugs. By adding a simplified list of precursers to the environment, crafting and production of other items can become a bit more believable (not realistic, I don't think that is the goal, just believable), even if only in a Fallout sort of way. I would love to see the list of precusurs used as stock for new building location mods (industrial sites, mines that actually produce something, etc), quest mods, and so on.

Mate, I'm not trying to bash you or anything, but I'm a chemist and your synth for LSD is so far off the mark as to be nearly totally inaccurate. I understand simplification, but there comes a point when something becomes so oversimplified that it no longer resembles what it originally was. Let's leave it at "LSD synthesis is, for all intents and puroses, infeasible to implement".

 

Also, in reference to your earlier post about piperidine being a "loss", piperidine, piperine, and piperonal are all easily extracted from the common black pepper, most techniques requiring basic potassium-based reagents and few apparatus.

 

See:

https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/3base/piperonal.pepper/piperine.pepper/index.html

 

Of extra-importance here (in my biased opinion, of course) is the ability to use piperonal as a precursor in MDA/MDMA production. Take a look.

 

 

What's that? A methylenedioxy group on the 3 and 4 positions of benzaldehyde? 3,4-Methylenedioxybenzaldehyde, you say? Why, that's only a substitution away from MDA/MDMA.

 

As you can see here, pepper is a wonderful plant.

I'd like to here your ideas on synthesizing other chems. Just assume you have any precursors you need, and I'll do what I can. An actual chemist working with me on this could bring the mod to another level of realism.

[GxRay]

 

I'd like to here your ideas on synthesizing other chems. Just assume you have any precursors you need, and I'll do what I can. An actual chemist working with me on this could bring the mod to another level of realism.

 

 

I would be more than happy to help.

 

If you would, please post a list of whatever you want hypothetically synthesized, and I will do my best.

Edited January 14, 2014 by GxRay

[senterpat]

Crack, MDMA, any notes on the Meth production outlined previously, before I change it. Pretty much anything that can be made using the precursors I've already made.

[pippinstrano]

@GxRay - I did further research on the LSD creation process and you're right. If nothing else, it would be simply so difficult to pull off that no one would bother with it when easier alternatives are available. That said, LSD properly stored is pretty stable, so it should be available from pre-war stashes (possibly very large ones in number of doses, considering the strength of LSD).

 

My concern about piperidine is actually based on it coming from black pepper. Where are we getting black pepper from that isn't completely dried out from 200+ years of storage as a condiment and I assume not usable? Particularly in the middle of the North American South West? I'm hoping that there is a source that I've missed, like the ephedrine source that I came across after thinking it was unavailable.

[GxRay]

@GxRay - I did further research on the LSD creation process and you're right. If nothing else, it would be simply so difficult to pull off that no one would bother with it when easier alternatives are available. That said, LSD properly stored is pretty stable, so it should be available from pre-war stashes (possibly very large ones in number of doses, considering the strength of LSD).

 

My concern about piperidine is actually based on it coming from black pepper. Where are we getting black pepper from that isn't completely dried out from 200+ years of storage as a condiment and I assume not usable? Particularly in the middle of the North American South West? I'm hoping that there is a source that I've missed, like the ephedrine source that I came across after thinking it was unavailable.

 

Well, s***, i'm a chemist, not a botanist. I had no idea that pepper was not indigenous to North America. If you absolutely must be 100% realistic, I'm sure you could come up with some kind of story as to why there would be black pepper in the middle of the Mojave.

 

And about LSD being stable when properly stored, yes, like any other fickle tryptamine if you baby her she will cooperate. However, properly stored means the absence of light, temperatures at or below ~70°F, absolutely no contact with tap/any form of undistilled water (the ionized chlorine atom destroys the ergoline in question), ABSOLUTELY no exposure to the atmosphere/oxidizing agents.

 

All in all, LSD is one of the most difficult chemicals to maintain potency on and store properly. If, by some miracle, there happened to be a room with LSD in it somewhere that stayed cold throughout the entire apocalypse, and it happened to have a few GRAMS of crystal LSD in it, then there might be some floating around the wastelands. A better bet would be 25(X)-NBOMe, though, as this has almost completely supplanted LSD in real life. The NBOMe series is far more stable, due to it being a phenethylamine rather than a tryptamine, and give effects that can be described as LSD with less of a mindf*#@.

 

See below:

25C(Carbon)-NBOMe

 

2C-C(Carbon)

 

NBOMe is synthesized, in most cases, from the 2-Carbon series (2C-C, 2C-B, 2C-I, etc.)

 

Crack, MDMA, any notes on the Meth production outlined previously, before I change it. Pretty much anything that can be made using the precursors I've already made.

 

Crack is literally just cocaine, baking soda, and water. You do need a freezer, though.

 

MDMA would need further precursor precursors. A lot of them.

 

Oh, and while we're at it, I would like to point out that MDMA is the bastard child of MDA that came about solely to due restriction in MDA precursors. MDA is actually much better than MDMA, and I highly suggest anyone who has a Schedule I DEA license to do "research" on this chem.

 

And the meth synth outlined previously is fine for our purposes.

Edited January 15, 2014 by GxRay

[Befo]

Since I have very little chemistry knowledge, I'll stay out of the technical chem crafting discussions. However, I do have some other thoughts/ideas about drugs, meds, and booze that I'd like to toss into the ring, as well as some thoughts for eventual compatibility patches.

 

The Triage mod for FNV has some nice ideas that I liked for healing, but it's rather basic. Arwen's Realism Tweaks has a much more in depth medical module, but unfortunately it requires some of his other overhaul .esps to work. I'd like to see a balance between the two approaches, myself. I'm a big fan of seeing Misc. Items get some use that makes sense, like Medical Braces used to help heal limb damage, Surgical Tubing or Leather Belts used as tourniquets, stuff like that. Finding a use for other misc medical items like Bonesaws, Crutches or the Opthalmoscope would be welcome.

 

As for booze, I agree that crafting the pre-war named liquors should be left out. After all, it's not like I can make Jameson's in my garage. However, there are plenty of vanilla liquors that could be made in a still, as well as some added by other mods (see patches below). There are different processes for making different booze, however, and not all are with the still.

 

Beer:

Beer is based off of a fermentation process as opposed to vapor distillation.

Ingredients: Water, Malt, Hops, Yeast
A home brew kit would be pretty cool. That would make it simple, but you could definitely expand on home brewing, maybe even giving the player to start a micro brewery to supply beer to the wasteland (although I guess running any of the booze listed would be a great idea too).

 

Cider:

Hard Ciders could be also be brewed. Ingredients: Fresh Apples, Yeast

Cider is made by pressing apples for juice, then adding yeast in and allowing it to ferment over time.

You could then take Cider and distill it further to make some applejack, either by jacking (freeze distillation) or through a regular vapor still. Or even double distill it. Jersey Lightning, good times.

An old timey cider press model for exteriors would be awesome, but that's a dream

 

Wine:

Winemaking is a much different process than any of the others here.

Ingredients: Grapes, Yeast.

Method: Too long for detail in a short post, but basically grow and harvest the grapes, crush them, press them, let it go through several stages of fermentation (aging), then filter and bottle it.

Would love to see some true wine making, possibly with a small winery operation, similar to the brewery I mentioned above (though this would probably be more upper class than the bootleg operation I imagine for hard booze).

 

Mead:

I was thinking about mead, but that requires honey as part of the fermentation process, and there are no bees in the game. Cazadors are supposed to be tarantula hawk wasps which don't make honey IRL (most wasps don't).

Ingredients: Honey, Water

Method: similar to wine (never made any myself, this is more of a guess from light reading on mead crafting)

 

 

 

 

Compatibility Patches -

You already mentioned doing patches for TTW and IMCN. I'm sure TTW will be a piece of cake for you, considering all the awesome patches you have done for TTW already. IMCN might be a little trickier, but I can't wait to see what you come up with. As for other patches, there are a few I can think of that might be worth doing.

 

NVEC - I actually have a copy of a CAM-NVEC patch that K3K worked up for me for your last version. I'll ask him if he would mind if I shared it with you, though it probably needs to be updated for your newest version. NVEC has several new meds, chems and some unique booze items, and also includes the CHEMS standard for adding working chemistry sets to the game.

 

AWOP - AWOP adds some new chems to the game, in the form of pills called Concentr8, as well as an addition chem called Never-Glow and a new booze, Toxic Radshine. Currently, none of these can be crafted in AWOP (there are no recipes for them), but they seem like they would go along with CAM's crafting nicely in a patch.

 

PN Rebalance and FOOK - Both PN's Rebalance module and the FOOK package make changes to some of the vanilla chems, and FOOK adds one or two of it's own, that may require a patch for CAM. I looked it over in FNVEdit, but I'll try to give it a better look over the next few days. (Mainly testing Rebalance's values vs CAM's.)