Special Powers...

[Venetia_CV]

"If such powers exist in the world, would it benefit anyone to make their existence known?" And to that, do the reaction scenarios presented above seem accurate given the nature of current society?

Yes they would be of benefit to the world. Not all science is conducted in secret labs by unscrupulous people for nefarious reasons. And, philosophically speaking, why live in fear and apathy?

 

By the by, Vagrant0, are you very sure of the nature of current society? Is there consensus on a majority of issues within western/eastern societies and do these disparate groups then share a mutually common stance? Seems a rather broad assumption on your part. As such, your reaction scenarios are like your hypothetically posed question.

 

-Kitten

[Marcus Wolfe]

I would tell nobody for 3 simple reasons:

1. I don't want to be dissected or preserved in a jar.

2. I'm might use these powers for morally questionable if not outright illegal actions.

3. If I have to use these powers for self defense, I want the other guy to be really surprised

 

Of course, if I was going to tell the world, I wouldn't bother dicking around with Youtube. No sir, I'd march straight into the Scientific Community Center, put myself under all of the most scrutinous observation devices they have - infrared, ultraviolet, thermal imaging, ultrasound, you name it - and do my stuff in a controlled environment. Then they'd have no choice but to believe me.

[Vagrant0]

By the by, Vagrant0, are you very sure of the nature of current society? Is there consensus on a majority of issues within western/eastern societies and do these disparate groups then share a mutually common stance? Seems a rather broad assumption on your part. As such, your reaction scenarios are like your hypothetically posed question.

 

I kinda am... History has shown that any time someone even suggests that they have some unusual ability, it has either been exploited, or been targeted by skeptics who would go to almost any length to prove them a fraud. Even in less developed countries, people who get outed as "mystics" tend to fall more into the whole exploitation and disbelief cycle, or eventually go into hiding than go the "betterment of all humanity" route. There were really only a couple of those guys who were well known, and they all got persecuted and killed pretty quickly.

 

I would tell nobody for 3 simple reasons:

2. I'm might use these powers for morally questionable if not outright illegal actions.

3. If I have to use these powers for self defense, I want the other guy to be really surprised

Well, these two reasons were kinda why I chose what powers I did for discussion. They have no illegal uses, other than being able to follow people you know around anywhere (great for stalkers, not much use for anyone else). Have no applications for destruction, self-defense, or subjugation. But still resembles something similar to what people can claim to do... Minor Telekinesis and Dosing. The only real impact of these powers would be exhibiting something which cannot be explained with known science.

[Venetia_CV]

By the by, Vagrant0, are you very sure of the nature of current society? Is there consensus on a majority of issues within western/eastern societies and do these disparate groups then share a mutually common stance? Seems a rather broad assumption on your part. As such, your reaction scenarios are like your hypothetically posed question.

 

I kinda am... History has shown that any time someone even suggests that they have some unusual ability, it has either been exploited, or been targeted by skeptics who would go to almost any length to prove them a fraud. Even in less developed countries, people who get outed as "mystics" tend to fall more into the whole exploitation and disbelief cycle, or eventually go into hiding than go the "betterment of all humanity" route. There were really only a couple of those guys who were well known, and they all got persecuted and killed pretty quickly.

Really? Will you list some examples?

 

You have not answered my question concerning consensus across a variety of leading issues in today's societies. And, in my initial response to your original question, I did not suggest 'the betterment of all humanity' as reason to allow such an ability to be observed.

 

-Kitten

[Marcus Wolfe]

I would tell nobody for 3 simple reasons:

2. I'm might use these powers for morally questionable if not outright illegal actions.

3. If I have to use these powers for self defense, I want the other guy to be really surprised

Well, these two reasons were kinda why I chose what powers I did for discussion. They have no illegal uses, other than being able to follow people you know around anywhere (great for stalkers, not much use for anyone else). Have no applications for destruction, self-defense, or subjugation. But still resembles something similar to what people can claim to do... Minor Telekinesis and Dosing. The only real impact of these powers would be exhibiting something which cannot be explained with known science.

 

Well, I'm sure I could find some way to use this power for pickpocketing or to throw a threat off his balance. But I admit these are very insignificant.

 

As for the science thing, I fully realize that, which why I said I'd go to the Scientific Community Center immediately.

 

Is there actually such a thing as the 'Scientific Community Center'? Does the scientific community have this one huge building where they hold their IUPAC conventions and stuff? If they do, I should go there sometime.

[Venetia_CV]

Has this thread been abandoned by its starter? Did calling for documentation or posing pointed questions prove too difficult to support? Was all of this merely an opportunity for our host to preen and display aspirations of being an author? Disappointing.

 

-Kitten

 

P.S. Come, Vagrant0, hypothetical issue or no, come take the lumps when they are yours to receive. : )

[Vagrant0]

Has this thread been abandoned by its starter? Did calling for documentation or posing pointed questions prove too difficult to support? Was all of this merely an opportunity for our host to preen and display aspirations of being an author? Disappointing.

 

-Kitten

 

P.S. Come, Vagrant0, hypothetical issue or no, come take the lumps when they are yours to receive. : )

Examples can't really be described because they touch upon religious beliefs, and mostly 3rd hand accounts recorded a few decades after they supposedly happened. But historically, atleast within the Jewish/Christian/Muslim tradition, people who claimed to have powers usually did so as either being a blessing from "god", or were tried as witches. Within eastern cultures, mysticism, or something similar was a bit more accepted, but was still often a source of fear and hostility, especially if there was any conflict between political views (like what happened in Tibet). In modern times, there is greater skepticism since most who claim to be mystics get found out to be frauds (wiki "psychic surgery"). Religion aside, there was one guy, son of a carpenter, who supposedly went around healing the sick, and offering some wisdom which happened to go against the teachings of the religious majority, had a bit of an altercation with some vendors who were doing something he disagreed with, he didn't live much longer after that. Or atleast that's the story once you strip out all the religious stuff. But I had thought that one to be one of the more obvious ones. Maybe Edgar Cayce is a better example, once people found out that he could "predict the future" but not remember what he had said, they started using him to make money off bets. Should do a search on Harry Houdini, or James Randi. Although both were stage magicians, both have devoted their lives to trying to debunk claims of any paranormal ability.

 

The examples of why society would react negatively are all around you, even in fiction, both Marvel and DC agree on one thing, super heroes are often persecuted for having their powers, and have to often adopt secret identities to survive in a normal world, or have to go into hiding frequently. Go to your video store and rent Phenomenon, there too, although fiction, problems arise simply because someone has "powers". There are many more fictional accounts to even name. Because they are fictional accounts, they offer an impression of one writers view of how the world might react, so are still rather valid for the purposes of argument. You wouldn't have a re-occurrence of "having to keep things secret" time and time again if there wasn't some deep basis behind that belief.

 

What there isn't an example of is an instance where that didn't happen, even in fiction. Where a person who has "powers" is able to just continue their life as normal, without the feeling of needing to hide their abilities, hide their identity, or being persecuted by whatever regime is currently in power. This is kinda why I didn't even bother to justify. There just aren't any cases I'm aware of where people with "special abilities" were just accepted and not seen as an object of fear or exploitation by someone else.

 

Trying to quantify the degrees to which people might fear or exploit such a person is really rather subjective, and is kinda the whole second question within this discussion. It would also depend largely on what sort of abilities one might posses, how they might use them, how they might advertise their usage, and where they happen to live. Trying to get a single consensus when you're talking about real specifics like this, for all countries, really isn't possible. Being an American, I was basing things off a westernized view of these things, which would likely be shared by most of the industrialized world. But as a good majority of this is hypothetical, with examples being in fiction or contestable records, and no such person has come forward within modern times, that we know of, nobody can really say for certain, nor can they really provide evidence or clear examples.

[Venetia_CV]

No. Vagrant0 you still deserve lumps, not for being a man of long periods or flaunting site rules or the spirit of which. You will abase yourself across my knee and receive six of the best for presenting extremely wonky and dull arguments.

 

First, we cannot debate religious issues, thus your points are inadmissible. At the risk of being banned (and cheating to win is bleh) I would say that historical persecution under religious contexts happened for a variety of reasons that reflect the rationale for a separation of church and state rather than confirmation of abnormal individual prowess. Vatican City, Iran, and Afghanistan come to mind as modern rebuttals, but that's another discussion.

 

Second, and to further refute your claim, I offer such historical figures as Jesse Owens, Albert Einstein, and the British Monarchy. Adolf Hitler tried to explain Jesse Owens' remarkable feats at the 1936 Olympic Games as being proof of the latter's sub-human genetics. Albert Einstein declined becoming President of Israel in 1952. To this day the consequence of the British Monarchy affords them a measure of respect from potential enemies. Each of these cases can be said to have been significantly scrutinised upon a world stage, demonstrated precious rare ability, and lived on.

 

Third, comic book companies may appear as hot properties to entities like Disney, but the writing they contain make for poor sociological analysis of real world issues. The quality of said prose and the facility with which it can be translated to the medium of film is more a question of demographics and economics. But, again, that is another discussion.

 

Also, I will add that many societies across the globe cherish those members of their culture that practise, from a scientific view, some form of mysticism. That you and I are part of the industrialised world should not cause us to harbour biases that dismiss the relevancy of differing perspectives.

 

Come, please. Let us explore the benefits of a good spanking.

 

-Kitten

[UncleRoe]

:yes: :D Did someone say spankings!?

 

 

 

 

Been a long while since i've seen two intelligent minds debate without killing each other. it's like Fight Night but with brains.

 

 

I'm just happy i read this thread before deciding to become a super hero.

[Vagrant0]

No. Vagrant0 you still deserve lumps, not for being a man of long periods or flaunting site rules or the spirit of which. You will abase yourself across my knee and receive six of the best for presenting extremely wonky and dull arguments.

 

First, we cannot debate religious issues, thus your points are inadmissible. At the risk of being banned (and cheating to win is bleh) I would say that historical persecution under religious contexts happened for a variety of reasons that reflect the rationale for a separation of church and state rather than confirmation of abnormal individual prowess. Vatican City, Iran, and Afghanistan come to mind as modern rebuttals, but that's another discussion.

 

Second, and to further refute your claim, I offer such historical figures as Jesse Owens, Albert Einstein, and the British Monarchy. Adolf Hitler tried to explain Jesse Owens' remarkable feats at the 1936 Olympic Games as being proof of the latter's sub-human genetics. Albert Einstein declined becoming President of Israel in 1952. To this day the consequence of the British Monarchy affords them a measure of respect from potential enemies. Each of these cases can be said to have been significantly scrutinised upon a world stage, demonstrated precious rare ability, and lived on.

 

Third, comic book companies may appear as hot properties to entities like Disney, but the writing they contain make for poor sociological analysis of real world issues. The quality of said prose and the facility with which it can be translated to the medium of film is more a question of demographics and economics. But, again, that is another discussion.

 

Also, I will add that many societies across the globe cherish those members of their culture that practise, from a scientific view, some form of mysticism. That you are I are part of the industrialised world should not cause us to harbour biases that dismiss the relevancy of differing perspectives.

 

Come, please. Let us explore the benefits of a good spanking.

 

-Kitten

Erm... Are we even discussing the same things here? Discussion of religion is not allowed, but one can certainly make references to religious values and beliefs as a way of elaborating upon an opinion. And in light of the fact that there is no real subjective data on the subject, that's all any of this is... opinion.

 

Second, when talking about things historically, one can assume that they are usually referring to things which occured before the modern age... In this case, witch hunts, the inquisition, condemnation of paganism, ect which encouraged people who thought differently to be quiet about it, or present it in a way which was in line with the current regime. Separation of church and state exists only in the US, and arguably, only when it serves the interests of whomever has the podium. Even if you wish to discuss modern times, there are certainly a few examples beyond those already mentioned. Most notably Alister Crowley, the self-proclaimed demonic, but publicly labeled kook. Or the rounding up of "mediums" that America and Russia did during the cold war to test the potential or remote viewing, telekinesis, and similar. In one case, excluding the thoughts and beliefs of another because they were seen as crazy, and in the other, enlisting people (in some cases against their will) for extensive testing (many details of which are still not released).

 

Third, we are talking about paranormal abilities, not someone being simply smart or athletic. I think this is where you are a bit confused. Jessie Owens is no more paranormal than Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or any other great athlete. Their abilities can all be explained through existing science, and many years of practice and effort. Einstein also, had no supernatural powers, never claimed to have supernatural powers, and would have probably dismissed any such notion outright. We are not talking about people who might have special talents, or exceptional prowess in a given field, we are talking about how the world might react to a single person which might be able to do something far beyond what can be explained by current sciences. Now this takes a good deal of imagination, and being able to work beyond the labels as to what normal people might consider as being "special". I can understand why you might be confused. Even as far as prowess at sports goes, athletes like David Beckham have been researched and scrutinized for finding out how they do the things they do, to the point of lab tests, computer models, and such, so even on that end of the spectrum, there is some invasiveness as people try to understand talent which seems to exceed possibility.

 

Forth, contrary to the impression you might be getting from more modern implications of comics, comics are actually a rather good allegorical tool for describing how characters, or the world might react to situations which exist beyond the norm. Although they are still the perspective of the writer, they are often filled with moral and social decisions based around that world. Just because they contain pictures, and has been seen more recently as a source of revenue, does not mean that the worlds they present do not have a certain amount of depth and complexity to those who can see those things. Even if you dismiss comics, and only work off the basis of non-visual novels, there are still many, many stories about characters with "magical" powers, and the horrible repercussions for having those powers discovered. We have to refer to these fictional sources for an idea of beliefs and values related to the subject simply because there are not many real instances where those things actually happened. Fear of something different is a recurrent theme in many works, both real and fictional.

 

Science and mysticism are two entirely different things. Most common forms of mysticism, tarot, astrology, dosing, seance, and anything which might be uttered with the word "psychic" have already been dis-proven by science. Although there are other areas, such as acupuncture, and meditation which have had some aspects proven by science, these areas are not due to mysticism, but bio-mechanics, biochemistry, and similar since they can also exist in a form which has no mystical connotation or ritual. Again, you are a bit confused, things don't happen because of a mystical component, but instead the mystical component is there to make those things seem more special.

 

So either you're misunderstanding the question, or are trying to argue something entirely different.