Understanding the Removal of Body Type Mods – A Polite and Courteous Discussion

[Euphanized09]

I agree that this is a problem that people like to troll about.

However I think it's also very important to understand that there is an enormous amount of trolling on both sides.

Activists who usually aren't dedicated gamers tend to push body type over male/female. Whether or not they consciously understand it, they do this mostly not because of inclusivity, but because of the exclusivity inherent in the act. For many, it is an act engaged in specifically because it will alienate people and push the original fans of an IP away from it, not because it will bring more people in or because it's somehow more aware or more friendly.

Another very important thing to understand-the market overwhelmingly supports the male/female dichotomy over body type because it reflects the real, lived experience of a far, far larger group of people. Many polls have been quite clear on this beyond any shadow of statistical doubt. Oh, and I should mention that includes my own lived experience as a transgender person (I say this with a small amount of snark that probably won't translate by text without this note. I view myself through the lens of my career, relationships, and hobbies far more than gender). I personally prefer male/female over body type because the male/female dichotomy is closer to how I would prefer to feel and be treated in a video game. I don't hate the body type convention, it is simply an inconvenience or minor annoyance that I'd personally prefer to do without. The kind of thing mods are meant to address.

And let me be clear, any game should stand on its' own merits when it comes to this issue. As should any mod. Nexus, quite frankly, has done the LGBT community and transgender community a huge disservice in banning mods like this so long as they have not violated any rules yet. Silencing dissenting voices when it comes to this issue is, in my personal opinion, causing large sections of the population to become more homophobic and transphobic, not less. It is extremely sad to see, from my perspective, that my way of life is less accepted now than it was 15 years ago. 

Don't get me wrong, there are bad actors out there, and platforms do need moderation. I'll even hear an argument for closing a comment section preemptively from time to time. But silence individual bad actors, not entire discussions or philosophies.

On a separate note, it also just seems silly that making a mod to change a remaster to be like the original game is ban-worthy considering the amount of content on this site that is literally pornographic, and sometimes in very unethical ways.

To address the aspect of trolling that I think most are blind to, many of the advocates for silencing dissenting opinions on this topic are not members of the communities they advocate for. At least the vast majority are not. Most don't even have a practical conception of real world issues being faced by those communities. Many simply use these issues for social clout, and ignore the critical damage they do to those communities in the process. They are not helping us, they are hurting us by alienating us from normal people on a societal level.

I think some of them even understand that it hurts us, and just don't care. I fear that it is a very disappointing proportion of people. In writing this, I wonder if people like that are going target this post or myself because it disagrees with their sensibilities. The base concept of this conversation makes me wonder whether there are some of them on the Nexus moderation team, and wonder whether this post will even be published.

Time will tell, I suppose. To me it seems both Kafkaesque and Orwellian that I should even be concerned about such a thing, but the truth is stranger than fiction and all that.

[JaceGavon]

7 hours ago, Vagrant0 said:

Okay, explain completely why this is such a crucial point of concern for you, so much so that you are going to take such a firm stand. What difference does this distinction for text that is displayed only once in a 80+ hour game make? Do you need a continual reminder that you are a Male character to feel right with yourself? I mean, there is a good deal of gender affirmation in the fact that you can look down at your character in first person and not see a pair of tits, then remember that you aren't a Type 2, you're a male. I suppose this gender affirmation of how you identify is quite important, almost critical, but you have to consider the alternative point of view. If you're someone who prefers having a Type 1 body, you might feel uncomfortable thinking yourself as a female; seeing this word used just once when defining yourself in the world, and instead preferring a label that is less limited by cultural connotations. Picking female might feel weird if that is not how you identify in real life because it might make you question things about yourself once you realize that the common argument for picking a female character diminishes when you play most the game in first person, but Type 1 needs no justification. 

As someone who has been gaming for a long time and who isn't quite up to date on the current cultural war, maybe I don't quite understand the problem. Please enlighten me.

Honestly you seem to have to contrary views. You say "What difference does this distinction for text that is displayed only once in a 80+ hour game make" its not. "Do you need a continual reminder that you are a Male character to feel right with yourself?" Type one and two signify a gender its why in-game you are refereed to as he or her. So they obviously have a biologically distinctive narrative. "I suppose this gender affirmation of how you identify is quite important, almost critical, but you have to consider the alternative point of view" Everything from this point is referencing a minute percentage of the population. If the vast majority of people see themselves as either male or female then you're catering to a small subset of the population. Previously you said it was a translation thing. So why not use universal symbolism? I.E  or as it wouldn't need translating at all, just as other games do to signify male or female? Because that's not the issue. Its not a translation issue and you most certainly know that. You come across far too intelligent to think that's the case. But it cant be so crude as you said "a pair of tits" either. Body type isn't even acknowledged. Can you make a more portly toon? Perhaps a short non Bosmer? Yet if its "alternative point of view" or "cultural connotations" There should be type 3-4 or even 5 to at the very least allow for more freedom of play and self expression in a game where playing a role in its very definition of genre.

Bottom line, we're talking about a mod. A mod that would only be utilized by those who would feel more comfortable selecting original options. It doesn't change the game for anyone except for those who download and deploy it. I can understand making them not use specific dialogue to prevent it as coming across offensive or trolling. But something like "Type replacer" or "Classic Character select" Shouldn't be ban or unsupported. Again, I fully supported starfield for having the option of pronouns if you chose to select them. This is the same hill.. Im all for a mod that allows for people to choose a gender option over a type if it makes them feel more comfortable.

[showler]

The original mod was pulled because it was posted as an attempt to create "drama".

There is now a version of the mod available on Nexus if anyone wants it.

Any further copies of the mod that got pulled were because the people that posted them were also doing it for the "drama".  There is no other reason for reposting something that's already available.

[JaceGavon]

18 minutes ago, showler said:

The original mod was pulled because it was posted as an attempt to create "drama".

There is now a version of the mod available on Nexus if anyone wants it.

Any further copies of the mod that got pulled were because the people that posted them were also doing it for the "drama".  There is no other reason for reposting something that's already available.

Do you know the title of that mod? Asking earnestly, not trying to set up any sort of discourse.

[TheVampireDante]

4 minutes ago, JaceGavon said:

Do you know the title of that mod? Asking earnestly, not trying to set up any sort of discourse.

https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivionremastered/mods/353

 

[JaceGavon]

2 minutes ago, TheVampireDante said:

https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivionremastered/mods/353

 

Thank you for your time finding that, or posting it. I appreciate it.

[showler]

Also, always keep in mind that when Nexus Mods staff make a decision like this it is not about controlling what mods you can have in your game.  They can't do that.  People can always upload/download the mod on any of dozens of other sites.  They have no control over what happens anywhere else.

The whole point of these decisions is to control the environment that users encounter on THIS site.  The site they own and control.  They make decisions to prevent the site from having wildly degraded interactions between users.

When you look at it from that perspective their decisions make a lot more sense.

[HALTT77]

It seems nexus recognized that they lost this battle... I am in favor of every single type of mod be allowed, no rules... you download if you want, nobody is making you do it...It is your choice, your game, your computer, your internet and so on... And specially because nexus mod team doesnt seem to be coherent some times, they remove a mod that make a black character white, but allow a mod that make a white character black...they remove a mod that allow a non-cis character  to have a cis relationship  but allows a mod that allows a cis character to have a non-cis relationship...this type of stuff is annoying, if they have rules they must ALWAYS follow it, otherwise they will lose the respect of the community more and more...

[Sulhir]

1 hour ago, HALTT77 said:

they remove a mod that make a black character white, but allow a mod that make a white character black...they remove a mod that allow a non-cis character  to have a cis relationship  but allows a mod that allows a cis character to have a non-cis relationship

The issue is they are trying to moderate based on intent, something which is infamously difficult to do.  But they don't moderate based on the poster's intent, they moderate based on what they believe that intent to be.  I'll freely admit I've seen some mods like this removed and turns out the user who posted it was an absolute waste of bandwidth on the website.  People who didn't even seem to want to be here.  But they didn't just ban the person, they also wipe all of their mods as though they never existed.  Whenever I leave a website I always remove any content I care about first and then ask them to delete my account, but I don't think any of the actions in these cases was so thoughtfully undertaken.

Intent is why first degree murder is seldom charged because it requires intent to be proven which requires evidence, typically premeditation.  Something NexusMods might have in some cases but also likely something they wouldn't feel comfortable sharing because of how easy it is to fake "evidence" these days.  NexusMods is not a court of law and their standard will by necessity fall woefully short of that standard.

[Shaitan051]

On 4/24/2025 at 7:53 PM, HALTT77 said:

nexus mod team doesnt seem to be coherent some times, they remove a mod that make a black character white, but allow a mod that make a white character black...they remove a mod that allow a non-cis character  to have a cis relationship  but allows a mod that allows a cis character to have a non-cis relationship...this type of stuff is annoying, if they have rules they must ALWAYS follow it, otherwise they will lose the respect of the community more and more...

They're being completely coherent and following the rules. It's just that they're following clear-but-unwritten ideological rules, which trump what is written here.

 

Personally, I'm more annoyed by them returning it purely to avoid some of the heat (and pretending that's not why). Pretty sure the author is still banned and, because of the bs a while back he doesn't really own/control the mod, he can't pull a pretty justified "you made your bed, now lie in it" and delete it.