Why I Think The Empire Is Right

[Lachdonin]

If Skyrim was built like Morrowind the Imperials would have had perfect Jarls. After all I would have actually been able to kill Siddgeir and Maven. I cannot tell you how much I wish the game would just let me kill the Black Briar family, with the exception of the daughter.

 

Open up the Creation kit. Load the data-file for Skyrim. Click on Actors-Nord-Female. Find Maven Blackbriar. Double click. Uncheck the box marked 'essential'. Save.

 

There, now you can kill the b****.

[dubbad29]

*There is proof that the Torygg is murdered: he's walking around Sovngarde. Next time you visit, walk around the bend past the whale bone bridge, over a creek, and he should be chillin' right there.

[Lachdonin]

*There is proof that the Torygg is murdered: he's walking around Sovngarde. Next time you visit, walk around the bend past the whale bone bridge, over a creek, and he should be chillin' right there.

 

That's not proof of murder. Speaking to him, he even acknowledges that he accepted the challenge, knowing full well he'd lose.

 

The almost total disappearance of Nord Tongues, however, does indicate that they underwent a rather dramatic cultural shift since the publishing of the Pocket Guide to the Empire. At the time of Skyrim, it seems only the Greybeards know how to Shout, and we know that Ulfric trained with them.

 

Considering the Greybeards date to the time of the First Council, their philosophies, and the disappearance of the Tongues, then it is safe to assume that the Way of the Voice totally took over the power of the Voice.

 

Ulfric violated the oaths of the Greybeards (he would have had to) when he used the Voice for mortal agendas. This makes his entire appeal to tradition suspect, because he is breaking a sacred tradition, percipitated entirely by the Nordic people, in favor of a long dead one they had abandoned. That he thinks it's alright for HIM to pick and choose which traditions to follow, and to hold others to HIS decisions, makes him no better than the Empire.

[sonicp]

So ulfric did not really won in fair duel. He used thuum by Nordic tradition its should not be used for personal gains and warfare. Except the dragon born of course :)

[Lachdonin]

So ulfric did not really won in fair duel. He used thuum by Nordic tradition its should not be used for personal gains and warfare. Except the dragon born of course :smile:

 

Eeeeh... Depends on the tradition... The old Atmoran traditions wouldn't see a problem with it. Even up to the founding of the Septim empire, there were still many Nords who used the Thu'um in warfare. In fact, their general unfamiliarity with siege weapons is because they'd literally just shout doors down. Still, by the time of Skyrim, that practice has died out entirely, and been replaced with the Way of the Voice.

 

This transition was entirely within the Nords themselves, and wasn't forced on them by outside powers.

 

Ulfric's use of the Thu'um in a duel is his decision that old traditions are more important than new ones. It would constitute a breaking of an oath, mind you, which was executable under the same ancient traditions Ulfric seems to favor.

 

Essentially, Ulfric is cherry-picking which traditions he likes and which he doesn't, while condemning the Empire for doing the same basic thing.

[sonicp]

Well theres two known incidents of door shouting that I know of. 1st is before the founding of the calm way during the purge of dragon cult and 2nd is Talos in siege of sancre tor but thats legal because he's a dragon born.

 

But it should be the calm way the right tradition because the tongues submit to jurgen after debating in many days and some of these tongues are nord kingss and accepted the philosophy of jurgen in how to use the voice

[NemesisTheWarlock]

Ulfric used the shout to try to convince the King to concede without having to kill him, conforming to the way of the voice. He simply underestimated Torygg and didn't expect him to be willing to die for the throne. The fact that the Imperials are running around claiming that Ulfric used the voice to kill the King is just propaganda to try to justify their invasion of Skyrim.

[sonicp]

torygg court wizard said if ulfric convince torygg he might have listen to him because he thinks ulfric as a honorable man but he challenged torygg right off the bat.

 

and he stick his sword into incapacitated and shocked torygg.

Edited February 26, 2014 by sonicp

[Lachdonin]

Ulfric used the shout to try to convince the King to concede without having to kill him, conforming to the way of the voice. He simply underestimated Torygg and didn't expect him to be willing to die for the throne. The fact that the Imperials are running around claiming that Ulfric used the voice to kill the King is just propaganda to try to justify their invasion of Skyrim.

 

Yeah...That directly contradicts what eye-witnesses, and Torygg himself tell us. Ulfric didn't try to cow him using the voice, he shouted him to the ground, walked over, and ran him through. There was no underestimating Torygg's determination for the throne (Torygg himself admits he couldn't actually refuse the challenge) and there was no offer to yield given.

[imperistan]

Why I think you're wrong, TC.

 

 

1. Surviving a massacre doesn't justify it happening. Now yes, what happened wasn't a massacre, but even so, the point still stands. You surviving the unjust execution doesn't make it okay.

 

And I laugh at the rest of that one, because Ulfric totally had complete control over who got shoved in with his troops. He totally made the Imperials think this guy in rags standing off the side was just as much with him as the ones in Stormcloak uniform. Ulfric totally made that officer completely disregard the fact that the PC had done nothing wrong and send him to be executed anyway. That is just reaching.

 

2. No they're not. They're Nords, doing what Nord's do. And do remember what kind of people the US was founded by. Calling them scum just because they're rebelling isn't fair.

 

And no, you don't see Stormcloaks harassing a Dunmer, you see two beggars (who used to be in the LEGION) harassing a Dunmer.

 

A more accurate stance for what the Stormcloaks want is a land ruled by the people native to that land, (and dont' start with the whole Forsworn issue. That's a different issue localized to the Reach specifically, not the whole of Skyrim. Nord's are still native to Skyrim as a whole) not by people who live thousands of miles away and send puppets to deal with local matters.

 

Skyrim for the Nord's isn't a literal statement. Its an outcry again'st Imperial rule.

 

3. Because elves are deceptive, manipulative, and all around dastardly. They hooked onto Ulfric because they know what he can do and they pushed him to do it. But regardless of the Thalmor influence on the rebellion's beginnings, the rebellion WOULD have happened regardless. Ulfric had very little to do with to do with the people of Skyrim (who would eventually follow him anyway) being prepared to rebel against the Empire.

 

And no, just because the Dominion benefits from the rebellion doesn't make it a bad thing. The Dominion also benefits from being allowed free reign to go anywhere and do anything within the Empire's borders.

 

4. Presuming that was true, then that has to be the worst ruse ever devised in the history of fiction or non-fiction. How exactly do you build up the strength to counter attack (when you already had it back when you DEFEATED their armies) while not only letting your enemy build back up the army you devastated, but also while allowing their spies free reign to go wherever and do whatever they want within your own borders? Even if Mede was building up some sort of invasion, the Dominion would find out about it. You can't hide the forces for an invasion that easily, and especially not when you're letting spies go and do whatever they want.

 

5. A true warrior will fight and win regardless of what his opponent uses against him. A fair fight is something you do when you are at a play, not when the fate of an entire nation is in the balance.

 

6. Where you may or may not have come from doesn't influence what you should or shouldn't do. In reality it would, but this is a game. I can say I was the son of the Emperor and still join the Stormcloaks. An Altmer fighting for Ulfric.

 

7. Considering they end up in a stalemate with the Stormcloaks, I doubt it. Tullius' arrival did bring about a near end to the rebellion (and mind you we don't have any information on how exactly he managed to execute his ambush. It was a move that literally comes out of nowhere) but afterwords the war stalemates until the Dragonborn's involvement. Sure they could just send another Legion, but the fact that they'd have to do that at all says a lot more about the Legion's strength than it does about the supposed stability of the Stormcloaks hold on Skyrim.