Lolicon Poll

[Vagrant0]

Completely opposed to it. I have an open mind for most things, but pedophilia is not one of them. You know that's what such a mod would be used for eventually (if not right from the beginning.)

Well, that's not necessarily true either. Just because someone might look at, or be aroused by stuff like this doesn't mean they are necessarily a pedophile, or that they will commit real crimes. Much like how everyone who plays violent videogames doesn't become a murderer. If stuff like this is A, and real crimes are B, although the common perception is that A eventually leads to B, the facts more often than not support that people who do B, may have at some time been exposed to A, but were really kinda screwed up from the start. However, as is usually the case, perception is almost always more important than facts when setting up laws and guidelines. The reality is that legally speaking, the US is one of the most sexually restricted non-islamic based countries, and even in the fairly open countries of Germany and the UK, stuff like this is being restricted or made illegal because of perceptions. Japan, the country which is the source of most of this, has even recently started passing its own guidelines which forbid the production of highly explicit drawn depictions of sex. The more aware the average person gets about the existence of any of this kind of stuff, the more laws will be passed banning its production, sale, or ownership.

[dezdimona]

I wasn't talking about you personally, I was talking about your stance of "it's OK, but I don't agree with pedophilia." My comment was to point out that legally, they are one in the same. If the police ever seize your computer and find drawn, fictionalized depictions of children engaging in sex, regardless of what you might believe, you are still going to be tried as a sex offender, and listed right along with the same horrible people who commit real crimes.

 

they won't find anything of that nature on my PC. I think for the most part because of my stance on issues people take and get the wrong impression about me. That I have no control over and people will see me or others like me as objectionable to their "standards" If you took offense at something I said I apologize,but what I stand for and what you seem to think you read into what I say are two different things.I find many here just fail to understand me and what I say and that's where the problems arise from. I am very pro-law and I do not encourage underage dling of anything adult by children. I would try to explain things better and perhaps easier to understand but I think and speak on a plane most can't comprehend and I refuse to lower my standards or my mental processes to make it easier for others.I'll remain true to me thank you. And no this is not a personal attack on you. I'm just saying that no matter what laws are enacted someone somewhere will find a way to circumvent them no matter what. I am not nor have I ever said that pedophilia rape and murder are OK,to the contrary those people need to be stood against a wall and shot.

Perhaps my thought processes are not on the average but don't misconstrue what I write as being pro anything where minors or sex with said individuals are and or is OK. it is not!.

 

Again this is not intended to be offensive towards you or others here but I'm sure some will not see it as such mainly on the premise of who and or what I am or perhaps may be.

 

also my talents are not wasted.I pursue that which I find of interest to me and yes,not all will agree with what I create nor do I care. I don't hide in back alleys, nor creep into adult movie theatres or book stores.personally I find porn for the most part a bore. But realism in my game I do strive for.

 

I've said what I need to and before certain people crawl out from under their rocks I'll end my posting in this topic. As always, I find your opinions indeed enlightening. Have a nice day and may you stay safe from harm, Dezdimona!

[Vagrant0]

Sorry, I really need to be more clear as to who I was directing things at. Although I was quoting your comments, and responding to your ideas, almost everything I wrote was directed toward the OP and anyone who might be reading this thread thinking that this was no big deal since it's not depicting real persons or events. I was hoping to set the record straight that this is a big deal, and in many cases is seen as no different than doing those things in real life.

 

On topic...

The people who download child porn are given the same sentences as those who distribute child porn, and as those who create child porn. There is almost no legal distinction between any of these although the act and everything involved is extremely different. Likewise, there is no distinction between real pictures of real children being exploited and CG, hand drawn, or animated depictions of fake children being exploited. There is also no distinction between images depicting two children in an entirely consensual setting, and a child being brutally raped against their will. There is no distinction between a parent who takes a candid picture of their child in the bathroom, and a parent who chains their child in the basement, beats them, and takes nude photographs of their child. Under the law, all are tried as sex offenders. The law doesn't make any sense, but since it supposedly keeps horrible creatures away from their children, most don't care.

 

All that aside. Even if one was to assume that nobody would care enough to get upset about a mod containing a book which features images from a lolicon manga, should any person who commits a crime be found with that mod on their hard drive, TESN would become responsible for distributing illicit materials which feature underage characters in sexual settings. If you decide to distribute it on your own site, you become responsible as well. And that is reason enough not to do something like this. There is no benefit to anyone for something like this to be made, and there is more risk and problem involved here than having people flame your upload. Period.

[ellimist]

I have a question.. what if im 16 and I just don't like porn of adults xD

 

Pedophilia for some maybe.. age appropriate porn for others?

[DavidB1111]

I'm still at a loss for why anyone would want loli at all. It makes no sense! :(

 

Anyhow, sorry, ell, it doesn't work that way. Especially at the age of 16.

[Vagrant0]

I have a question.. what if im 16 and I just don't like porn of adults xD

 

Pedophilia for some maybe.. age appropriate porn for others?

Technically, you shouldn't be seeing any porn, and cannot legally have any discussions with adults which deals with explicit sex. Period.

 

As far as owning porn which features people your own age, that is still illegal. As a matter of fact, way back when we were all using 486's, and the internet was just getting started, one of the kids I knew in school got busted for having child porn, despite the fact that he was only about 15 at the time. He kinda had to leave school after that, so dunno what happened.

 

Even having sex with someone about your age might be prosecuted in your state as pedophilia due to your state having a higher age of legal consent. It's screwed up to think that someone who isn't even 18 yet can be forced to register as a sex offender because they had relations with their girlfriend, and now have a black shadow over their whole life hence forth, now isn't it?

 

Trying to rationalize why anyone would like loli porn is kinda like trying to rationalize why people are into any pornographic image. Like all porn, regardless the kink, the only reason why it holds any interest is because it features an unachievable fantasy, or a situation that is not readily possible. Porn allows us to live vicariously through the acts of others, and experience a world, or sensations we could not experience otherwise. Yes kiddies, autotrader IS porn too, you finally have confirmation.

[Netwit2008]

I read this thread title and said to myself......self, leave it alone, this is one of your soapboxes.... But obviously I didn't follow my own advice, lol.

 

I didn't vote, because I don't like the choices. While I have no right (nor do I want to have it) to dictate what others deem as "appropriate," likeable, etc. I do believe and have seen evidence, that many pedophiles start early in life with fantasies of their fetishes or feelings of being drawn to children sexually (so no Elli, it really doesn't work that way).

 

Many pedophiles have themselves been abused as children, thus suffer from "arrested development" and feel either empowered by sexually using children, or rationalize that it is not wrong because mentally they are the same age, in a manner of speaking. Either way it's a recipe for potential dysfunctional behavior. Pedophiles also don't have the self monitoring discipline most of us have, meaning their impulses at some point override good judgment, so there is very little to keep them from acting on those impulses. Even after treatment the recidivism rate is extremely high.

 

If I understand what loli is, (I'd never heard of it before), then it can come mighty close to simulating pedophilia, especially if the child images are young to preteen. Teen aged and above can be argued, because in some cultures, rites of passage deem a girl a "woman" at very young ages, like 14 and above.

 

Even still, if it means what I think it means, I couldn't get with the concept, wouldn't condone it. I've seen the aftermath of too many people male and female, whose lives have been devastated by child sexual abuse. This would get dangerously close to that ledge IMHO. If a person has no deviant sexual desire for power (as is the motive for most rapes) or no sexual attraction to children, then the loli content mods would have no appeal to them, unless to satisfy a curiosity of what the fuss is all about. In that case, a person would view it, ewwww it and delete it.

 

Using loli mods does not mean the viewer/player will absolutely act on their desires, BUT as I said, many self proclaimed pedophiles have said their fantasies began early in life- preteen to teen aged. These fantasies often become OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) like, in that there is a strong compulsion eventually to try out the acts they've fantasized about for so long. Why help them along by providing content that depicts the acts they crave, legal or not?

 

This can be a tense and controversial subject to be sure, but if we never discuss it as adults, in an adult like manner, then nothing will be done besides gritching behind a computer screen or talking negatively about those who do see it as no big deal and engage in watching, modding, and/or dabbling in it under the guise of it being "not real," "just fantasy," or "it's still legal, so who cares?" Surely we can discuss it without rancor, respecting each other’s opinions.

 

Who knows, someone may actually learn something new about the subject and feel differently because it is a layered issue that ultimately can truly be, or lead to things much deeper than just watching or modding some loli on the computer. That’s my HO anyway.

[Ranokoa]

Hmm.. I didnt quite read the last 5 posts.. they were rather.. long. lol. And time is not on my side.

 

Ok a couple replies that i can remember... im not going to name names aside from vagrant and dez cause im too lazy to look em up to do so.

 

Person saying about a mod involving sex with kids in the game:

 

Although I suppose certain aspects of this would fall under the loli im talking about, that is actually not at all the magnitude of what my intentions for this poll were. That itself, just because of how good the graphics are and how freakin amazing certain mods transform this game could be, if a screenshot were taken in good lighting, great stances and nice graphics cards + mods, sometimes be mistaken for a real photo. I've shown a screenshot of a chick from TES4 with really good mods up to someone, it took em a minute to figure out it was not a real person. The fact that its so realistic, i would simply state IMO that actually having kids from the game itself have sexual acts with eachother shouldn't be listed as loli at all... but as a half step below possession of child porn.

 

To vagrant: i will quote this: "Do we really want modding to be seen as being capable of making content that in some places is outright illegal?"

 

Half of all mods on here one way or another, even the game itself, is in some places outright illegal. Heck, a mod that shows nudity is illegal in certain places. I forget the name, but theirs a country that will behead you as punishment for masterbation. But as dez has stated, albeit in a different intention of what i quote her for, perseption of laws in certain countries is their own choice, and the individuals choice to follow them or not is their own to make and no one can actually stop it. What i mean by this, is certain countries some laws are just absalutely downright stupid, much like being beheaded for pleasuring ones self. Some may say it is not, some may say its very right... but its all about perception. Although loli so many should be illegal and absalutely wrong, others will argue that it is legal for many reasons, and it, as you say, can not be 100% proven to have any real link to the things and crimes commited in reality. Perception is key, legalities are not in this case. The only reason i meantioned legalities from the beggning was because whether a mod containing loli is "right or wrong", it could very well be illegal in certain countries. Someone in Ireland might not realise it, download it and it would be breaking the law. Would they get arrested" Chances are if they dont brag about it they wont even get caught. But still, that is irrelevant.... I kinda can't continue im loosing track of things here lol. Anyways, although id like to continue on that note, it would clerify things, but be redudant.

 

To the person talking about what the intentions of the loli are or whatever that question / statement was:

 

I was more or less talking about things such as porno books or posters containing the anime loli, not actual acts made by NPCs. As a matter of fact, nothing to do with NPCs.

 

 

As also a statement to everyone: When typing up this poll, I was not thinking of extreme low age loli, nor toddlercon, but much less mid teen typical schoolgirl not too raunchy loli. That was more or less the intention at hand with this little poll. So from now on lets just leave it at that note because i have a feeling it was only a matter of time before a sentance like "So its legal to look at 8 year olds having sex so long as its drawn" or something along those lines. Lets talk about the less disgusting part and replace it with the just as wrong but much less vomit to the thought of it area.

 

Too tired and inebrated to continue.. I hope i spelt that right. Anyways, as always:

 

Be well, sleep well, fight well, live long.

~Ranokoa

 

PS: Very awkwardly the majority eaither deam it ok, or accept and would use this according to votes. That is the opposite of what i expected. CMON someone turn the tide of this poll! But as a reminder, please remain appropriete language and make debates and or arguements not so heated... Really dont want tensions to turn flame, cause i hate having to report my own thread as a whole to be closed >_<. Just saying this cause i stopped reading 5 posts ago, idk how it turned out.

[JCP768]

*Was posting this as the forums went down*

 

Once again, I suggest that you do not do this, and find something more worthwhile, and less legally questionable to do with your time, and more befitting of your talents.

I agree, personally I'm just curious as to what the hell this topic is doing here. If it's entirely for psychological or philosophical reasons why post it on an Oblivion mod and not, well.... anywhere else instead? If you're not sugarcoating anything then why not tell us what you're trying to get at? is this for a requests, WIP, idea, what?

 

IRT Vagrant's last post: Yeah... kind of like how two 15 year olds having consensual sex with each other are technically "rapeing" each other according to the law.

 

EDIT:

 

ranokoa: Last post cleared up somethings, still a bit confused as to what your intention was with this topic.... I think one of us is just over thinking, prolly me. :sweat:

[Vagrant0]

Although I agree that some caution should be given, I do not agree with the severity of your stance. Yes, there are alot of really, truly screwed up people out there, but you are in a way suggesting that anyone who happens to be aroused by this kind of thing is inherently one of those truly screwed up persons, and as a result will eventually perform those kinds of acts. Like with video game violence, the evidence just doesn't support this. There are quite literally tens of thousands who happen to like this kind of thing in a hand drawn, entirely fictional, animated setting, but who are not out committing crimes. There is a very significant difference here. Watching or reading this stuff does not harm anyone else, and does not involve anyone else. Real pedophilia however does harm others, often directly, and does involve others. Just like with video game violence, it is one thing to play a game where you are mowing down people left and right, and something entirely different to go through the act of buying a gun, planning who or where you are going to kill, and pulling the trigger on real people. The gateway theory, in almost every application just doesn't work since most of us can tell the difference between things that entertain or interest us, and don't break laws or harm others, from those things that do. Even that stereotypical goth kid who plays doom (I know, dated, but this is how things have been typified) for 18 hours a day, has a parent who owns dozens of assault weapons, and has shot those weapons previously, STILL makes the decision to point the gun at another real person, and pull the trigger. The exact same is true in this case. The person needs to be screwed up first, and make conscious, albeit irrational, decisions to do harm. In many cases, people are drawn to this kind of porn just because it's there, and it's something different. You don't need to live down on the farm to enjoy bestiality porn, or even be attracted to animals since most bestiality porn just features human women servicing or being serviced by said animals. Sex is sex is sex, the only thing that matters is how loosely you define sex, and how bored you happen to be.

 

@ranokoa

Although true, in that case, I was talking more about western, non-islamic countries, who are otherwise open to depictions of sex. Actually, as far as some islamic countries, and most of asia goes, a female child can legally be raped as young as 13 so long as there is consent of a guardian. In some asian countries, there is even a rather large sex trade dealing specifically with young female, and in some cases, male children. Although most of this is illegal, many of those running the trade pay off politicians and police to look the other way. Even the Bible has several passages which support young daughters being sold into slavery. And to clarify, I believe the only instance where anyone would be killed for masturbation is in the case of a woman doing it. Although it might be seen as distasteful behavior for a man, killing men for doing it is like killing dogs for barking. No leader, priest, or politician would ever pass such a law since it could quickly be used against them. Still doesn't make any of this right. Point is that most westernized countries are working to make stuff like this illegal, and over the last few years, have been setting some legal precedents. You should really read or skim through the last few replies, it should clarify things a bit more.

 

Put simply, this is still a bad idea, and probably isn't something you should be doing. Most people voting don't even know what they're voting on, or don't really care enough. It is not an issue of opinion, it is an issue of legality and liability. If you do this, getting flamed or voted down for uploading will likely be the least of your concerns.