What were the imperials thinking?

[K9andSmith]

Ok so I know what Ulfric was planning to do to win the war, plod across Skyrim deposing pro-imperial jarls and build up his rep so he could be king and rule the place. But what in seven hells was the imperials plan? Why did they not just take Dawnstar and invade Windhelm from the sea? We know there are merchant ships in the sea of ghosts just waiting to be impressed into troop transports and the east empire company has a decent merchant navy in the region too. Why did they not just take a force by sea to kick in Windhelms back door in the dead of night, there's not much of a navy to stop them even if they were spotted? They would have at least unseated Ulfric if not killed him out right if they had taken his city.

 

What stopped them from sending plane clothed guys into the city to assassinate him? The Dragonborn has no trouble walking right in, neither do the occasional cultists or vampires. I know they lost the Blades and they were the empires chief undercover guys but the Dark Brotherhood was still strong enough to take out an emperor, why not hirer them to stick Ulfric and frame the Thalmor? Unless the plan was not to kill Ulfric at all, or at least not before his supporters were cowed. Did general Tullius mean to crush the Stormcloaks before Ulfric so they could not us him as a martyr for their cause? If that was the case why was he so keen to kill Ulfric at the start of the game, what changed? Was Tullius's grand plan really to drive the leaderless Stormcloaks into the hills so they could pester him like the forsworn for the next twenty years.

 

So could anyone, ANYONE, tell me what the empires strategy was and why they did not try any of the above?

 

P.S. By the way saying "because that's how it was written" is not a genuine answer.

[IsharaMeradin]

I would say that they knew what he was up to from the beginning and had meant to execute him and his generals at the start of the game. They would most likely have carried his head on a pike for display showing the stormcloaks that HIS cause was lost. But with the interruption by Alduin a new plan needed to be developed to recapture or kill him.

 

It just happens that they did decide to storm Windhelm and remove him from power but by that time he had strengthend his hold on those jarls supportive of him. Therefore the imperials chose to weaken the overall force that could have been in Windhelm by taking care of the other holds first.

 

The beliveability of that depends on how long you put off joining. It makes more sense for a late start rather than an early one.

 

In the end tho it all boils down to "that is how it was written" :P

[Kraeten]

Windhelm is a fortress. Even IF the Empire could muster enough ships to transport their army, there's very little chance they could have stormed their way up Windhelm's docks before the alarm could be raised and the gates secured. Which would leave the Imperial army stuck outside the city, surrounded by Stormcloak aligned settlements. It would be a massacre.

[Yagamoth]

Ok so I know what Ulfric was planning to do to win the war, plod across Skyrim deposing pro-imperial jarls and build up his rep so he could be king and rule the place. But what in seven hells was the imperials plan? Why did they not just take Dawnstar and invade Windhelm from the sea? We know there are merchant ships in the sea of ghosts just waiting to be impressed into troop transports and the east empire company has a decent merchant navy in the region too. Why did they not just take a force by sea to kick in Windhelms back door in the dead of night, there's not much of a navy to stop them even if they were spotted? They would have at least unseated Ulfric if not killed him out right if they had taken his city.

 

What stopped them from sending plane clothed guys into the city to assassinate him? The Dragonborn has no trouble walking right in, neither do the occasional cultists or vampires. I know they lost the Blades and they were the empires chief undercover guys but the Dark Brotherhood was still strong enough to take out an emperor, why not hirer them to stick Ulfric and frame the Thalmor? Unless the plan was not to kill Ulfric at all, or at least not before his supporters were cowed. Did general Tullius mean to crush the Stormcloaks before Ulfric so they could not us him as a martyr for their cause? If that was the case why was he so keen to kill Ulfric at the start of the game, what changed? Was Tullius's grand plan really to drive the leaderless Stormcloaks into the hills so they could pester him like the forsworn for the next twenty years.

 

So could anyone, ANYONE, tell me what the empires strategy was and why they did not try any of the above?

 

P.S. By the way saying "because that's how it was written" is not a genuine answer.

 

So the way I see it your question is about five questions and I will try to provide my thoughts on them in turn.

 

1. Why did the legion not invade and grab Dawnstar at the start?

 

My thoughts on this are that it is well established in the game that many of the Stormcloaks are legion veterans. The Legion was not simply fighting a group of farmers with pitchforks, they were fighting battle hardened veterans who knew their tactics. Furthermore the Empire was trying to conserve forces as, at the start of the game, the Empire was only Cyrodil, Skyrim, and High Rock. The other Providences had either gone through their own succession or (in the case of Morrowind) was simply so screwed up there would be no real support from that quarter. Also remember that at the start of the game it was not yet an all out war merely skirmishes. Put those facts together and General Tullius was trying to do what he did at the start, capture Ulfric and execute him with minimal casualties, therefore preserving their fighting strength.

 

2. Why didn't the Empire use their Navy to take Windhelm?

 

Well my thoughts on the first question partially answer this as to the start of the game, however consider also the lesson the Spanish learned from the defeat of their great Armada. A significantly smaller and lesser powerful force can beat a larger one with sufficient tactics. Although as the Naval situation was never mention it is entirely possible that the Stormcloaks had a Navy capable of fighting the Imperial one to a stand still. Additionally if the Legion had attempted to take Windhelm by navy they would have been caught in a pincer. First they would have to slowly navigate down to Windhelm to make sure they did not lose half their fleet to the ice, which would give the Stormcloaks plenty of forewarning. Next the Navy would have to penetrate the walls of a heavily fortified city before troops from Winterhold and Riften could catch them in a pincer. If they failed to take the city (or even breach the walls) before those reinforcements arrived all the reinforcements would have to do is set the ships on fire.

 

3. Why was Ulfric not assassinated?

 

You hit the nail on the head when you said this would make him a Martyr. If the Legion made Ulfric a Martyr the Stormcloak army would have fought them even more fiercely than before do to the "dishonorable" method the Legion used. Remeber that the Stormcloaks are all about the old nordic traditions and honor.

 

5. Ok so why not just cover it up and blame the Thalmor?

 

That would have been just as bad as them thinking the Imperial Legion did it. The reason for this is that the Stormcloaks blame the Thalmor pressence in Skyrim on the Empire, ergo if Ulfric was assassinated by the Thalmor it would be evidence to them that (a) The Thalmor favored the Empire winning the war which justifies what they say about the Empire being the Dominions puppet and (b) the only reason the Thamor were there in the first place was the Empire.

 

5. How was the Helgen execution different from an assassination?

 

Simply put Ulfric was captured by the Imperial Legion due to a tactical masterstroke by General Tullius. The Nords would not see the Legions actions as dishonorable.

 

That would be the best answer I could give for your questions.

[K9andSmith]

IsharaMeradin - So Tullius's plan was to bleed the Stormcloaks out before dealing the killing blow to Ulfric? Then why take the forts across skyrim, instead of drawing them into pitched battles in Whierun and the Pale? Well... I guess the Stormclocks were in the forts, so its kill them were they life kind of thing right?

 

Kraeten - How could an force that arrived by sea, with naval supremacy, be trapped by a city? If they tried a siege of Windhelm by sea, yeah that would fail miserably since their in a river. As for a fortress, yes Windhelm is just such a thing, but when has an unmanned wall stopped anyone. There's like five guards on the docks and there can't be more than eighty in the whole city. So that's like what twenty to thirty guys up and on the clock at any one time, that's small potato's to descent sized lighting raid in the dead of the night. Shore Winterhold, Riften, and the Pale would send a relief force, after they found out about it. That's going to take some time two to three days once word reaches for a decent response that's time for the imperial force to kill Ulfric and be gone. Or if they can't take the hall of kings, enough time to take the outer walls to repulse the Stormcloak counter attack. And yes I do what to discuss the viability of an amphibious invasion of Windhelm further, really I do. Come on lads, nock so hole in my theory! :laugh:

 

But what do you guys think of the strategy Tullius used? Was he to stupid to think of a better idea, was it a very conservative war of attrition, did he think the empire would fair better in a slower compain, did he not what to risk sinking his carrier on a longshot play like a naval raid?

 

*Sorry Yagamoth didn't see you their, give me a bit to reply.

Edited February 20, 2014 by K9andSmith

[K9andSmith]

Ok Yagamoth *cracks knuckles*

 

1. I should have clarified, when I said plan I meant post Helgan plan. Which for the empire taking Dawnstar was step two, which gave them two of the three port in Skyrim. That's when a sea born invasion should have come up, because like you said the empire was down on man power and a swift stroke to the heart of the rebellion could have saved a lot of blood shed.

 

2. I grant that a merchant navy fighting for the Stormcloaks was something I overlooked, seeing it now though I guess I would really come down to who the east empire company backed. Now a sea battle is anybody's guess, as its all hypothetical, the size and composition of the fleets, the wit of the commands, and the skill of the crew is a up in the air. As for the ice in the sea, the only naval scene in the game, east empire company v. pirates, at Japhet's Folly was not impeded by ice to any great extent. Now I don't think that an unassisted naval siege of Windhelm would work, why was it not seen in the final stages of the vanilla campaign though? Beats me. Now a traditional Viking raid in river faring long ships under cover of night on the other hand, that would work if it was planned right. See above for details.

 

3. and 5. I would dispute how the nords would have looked on Ulfric's execution based on how Ralph and his sister talked about it. I say his death would have been seen as martyrdom by his more ferret supporters no matter the cause. If the empire really did not what to bleed Skyrim and its own legions why not play dirty for the greater good? Moreover if the Brotherhood had killed him there's no way to know who had it ordered anyhow, the empire would be the prime suspect naturally but their would be doubt for shore. Ulfric had a lot of enamels, any number of dark elfs or argonians have reason to what him gone as do the Battle-born and best of all the Black-briers. That's enough for a good spin doctor I'd say.

 

4. I will concede on this one, the back lash would be pretty bad, not uncontrollable but not wreath the risk.

[Yagamoth]

K9andSmith

 

1. I see your point here, personally I think it was never considered due to the massive amount of processing power it would take in addition to how the game was set up. Basically a naval seige would have involved lots of cannons and other things that would have put a strain on some pc's. Well that and they would of had to code in a naval battle sequence. With that being said your method would have been the most logical method for Tullius to go about it.

 

2. I see your point on the East Empire raid, I had not done the quest in awhile and kind of forgot about it. I was thinking more in terms of what a real navy would have to consider in a region like that.

 

3 and 5. His most zealous supporters would see any death by Ulfric, not matter the how, as martyrdom. However remember what Legate Rikka said at the end of the Legion quest line. Without Ulfric as their leader most of the Stormcloaks would simply return home. The distinction I was trying to make is that Ulfric dying after being captured by the Legion could be seen as being bested by a superior foe honorably. Whereas the assassination, no matter who did it, would more than likely just fall on the Imperials heads anyway. After all the truth is not as important as what people believe in cases like that.

[Lachdonin]

Windhelm is a city build almost exclusively to protect against a naval assault. Sea-based raids were the mainstay of the ancient Nords, even against their own, and assaulting the city by sea would have been going against defenses specifically designed for that purpose.

 

You also have to consider that the Imperial navy (what happens to remain of it, most of it was based out of Summerset -3rd era- and Hammerfell) is probably doing what the Legion is doing, preparing for war with the Dominion. Commandeering ships, surprisingly, requires SHIPS in the first place. And while merchant vessels may be able to transport troops, they certainly aren't going to help in a naval siege.

 

Remember that the 'Legion' in Skyrim isn't the Imperial Legion. It's a token command force, containing some Legion officers, recruiting locally because the actual Legion is off preparing for war. The Legion barely even considers Skyrim a civil war worthy of its attention. There are probably more Legionaries in the Stormcloaks than there are in the Skyrim-Legion.

 

It should also be noted, on the Assassination thing... The Legion isn't equipped for that kind of work. That's what the Blades were for. Tullius and Rikke are being crafty by sending you to intercept a missive, that's not normal Legion tactics. There's probably no one remotely qualified for an assassination mission.

[K9andSmith]

Yagamoth -

 

2. I doubt how much trouble the ice could have caused on a trip between Solitude and Windhelm, given how much trade supposedly goes through their ports. There are a number of rather recent looking wrecks on the coast, but most look to have run aground rather than hit ice. As to a the trouble it might cause for say the cream of the imperial navy, I guess it would depend a lot on the type of ship and the captains own skill. Not that the imperials would have sent a force like that anyhow. Remember though that the Norse of history were skilled sailor and traitor throughout the Baltic sea and the north Atlantic, as were the Dutch. And they had a pretty successful time navigating the ice in the region.

 

3 and 5. I'll give you those two, assassinating Ulfric would have probably alienated a lot of nords, more so if they did it while they were losing. If Ulfric was the only thing holding the rebellion together it had probable been considered and passed over, since the outcome was not as favorable of the imperials in the long run.

 

Lachdonin - The imperial navy is another story all together, but the east empire company has ships that could support a siege and protect transports from pirates. Why would the empire need ships to get ships if they have the ports the ships are coming to anyhow? And as I brought up before, Windhelm is not well defended from the sea, there's nothing but a few farms and an old tomb between Windhelm and the open sea. And that's all on the southern side of the river too. The docks are open for trading, so there's nothing sunk in the river for the boats to run aground on. Also the port gate is open all the time with five guys outside and maybe two inside to guard it, that's not exactly a stalwart defense.

 

Tullius might have had a big push to recruit locally but that does not make the force any less legion, they got the same training and were organized in the same manner. Nor does it mean that Tullius did not have any veteran troops in Skyrim. Or that the legion and city guard veterans, who undoubtedly made up a portion of the Stormcloacks, were all that much better than the force Tullius had trained. While nothing makes up for the experience of veteran troops the legion had a larger number of trained soldiers on the field.

 

I have conceded that assassinating Ulfric would likely not have ended the war favorable for the empire but that does not mean I don't think they could have done it. You say that without the blades there was no one in the legion or the empire that tried to fill that gap they left? And that no one was capable of putting on a Stormcloak uniform, walking into the hall of kings and stabbing Ulfric? I will point out that non of the doors are locked and non of the guard say anything if you wonder around the upper halls. And since you brought it up, if the empire had you, the dragonborn(maybe), why not have you walk in, challenge him to a duel and kill him? Aside from the fallout that Yagamoth was talking about of course.

[madcow12]

And let us not forget thr presence of the penitus oculatus in drsgon bridge. Ther is an outpost there, the one and only in all of skyrim, but they dont make any appearsnce except for DB quest..or are they working in the shadows? Yes they are the emperors guards but so were the blades who battled the thalmor in the shadows. Ok i am straying from the topic sry..

 

I also think an attack from sea wouldve been completely valid, but perhaps after the legion controls winterhold, which is in a good position to spot the passing ships. The ships i am thinking are the ones you see wrecjed and the one you take to solstheim. Load a boat with maybe two catapults max, bombard from sea while a landing party pushes up from the docks. Or it couldve been a ruse attack to shift the forces in the rift north so the legion can push east from falkreath. That being said, despite all the talks of docks and trading ships, you never see a boat going to and fro from docks. Also one of the loading screen quotes is about how riften docks used to be flowing with boats, but considering the width and depth of the water between ivarstead and riften and how you wud hav to ride the waterfall down to whiterun the quote comes across as unfitting