Legion NV

[Devilman1975]

I think both the bots and the sex of the player will hing on an essential question regarding the fundamental nature of hte Legion. Is it a cult of personality primarily centered on Caesar or has it already evolved into a bona fide culture whose ethos far surpasses any single leader (think Sparta and it's military social system). If it's the former I think things in the Legion can change much, much faster than the latter. But if it's the latter, the prohibition re: females and bots isn't something the player can alter without massive resistance, and probably changing the core nature of the Legion.

 

I don't mind seeing some resistance within the Legion against female players. Regardless of gender I think that any players wanting to be the next Caesar should be challenged by groups of hardliners within the Legion before and after killing Lanius. If a female Courier killed Lanius in full view of the Legion then she will have proven the Legion's misogynistic philosophy wrong by killing the alpha male of the Legion. I can't imagine some elements of the Legion taking this scenario well.

 

Another thing about the Legion to consider is that it has not produced a leader that was born into the Legion yet. Caesar came from the NCR originally and Lanius was from a tribe that surrendered to the Legion. Potential is there for female or male Caesars to start a dynasty within the Legion. Could be another thing to upset some groups within the Legion.

 

As for the Legion Securitrons I figured that whoever becomes leader of the Legion can rewrite the rules as he/she sees fit. Of course I would expect an element of resistance from within the Legion over the use of technology. If the Securitron vault was not destroyed by the player on Caesar's orders then it would be an important military asset for the player's rise to power later on. I'm sure the player can hide Yes Man in the Lucky 38 for a while.

 

Kind of off topic, but there was going to be a female opposition to the Legion called the daughters of hectate, in Van buren.

 

 

I had a look at the wiki link for Daughters of Hecate and it seems like it was an interesting idea to have some kind of female version of the Legion. Perhaps they can be used in the Legion mod as part of a ongoing military campaign to remove them from the West Utah area. Special options can maybe exist for female Caesars to purchase female bodyguards from this tribe and negotiate their annexation into the Legion if it puts females in a better position.

[devinpatterson]

 

I had a look at the wiki link for Daughters of Hecate and it seems like it was an interesting idea to have some kind of female version of the Legion. Perhaps they can be used in the Legion mod as part of a ongoing military campaign to remove them from the West Utah area. Special options can maybe exist for female Caesars to purchase female bodyguards from this tribe and negotiate their annexation into the Legion if it puts females in a better position.

 

 

An alternate variation of them might work for that function. As it is now, they are essentially the Legion's Nemesis, the purpose of their existence is to oppose and destroy the Legion. Apparently the leader was "another" of the last member of the twisted hair tribe.

 

I had an alternate origin story I was considering for a mod based on enhanced mitochondria. The concept is pretty straight forward. At some point before the war an enhanced mitochondria super solider project was initiated with some success. The results allowed significant gains over the energy production of the normal organelle. Running the mile at 2 and a half minutes, continuous high intensity combat etc. The twist is only the mother's mitochondria is passed on to her children, resulting in it being strongly favored by the female line. Only the first generation of sons could have it, but the full line of daughters will carry the "Goddess's gift". I pictured them as somewhat akin to the black ops females of half-life, in their abilities. Then based on a religious theme of a goddess and female dominance, and then a spartan like dedication (self denial, discipline), woven into that belief system to focus on military training and excellence. One cornerstone being (and this is optional) the theological structure of their afterlife depending on a "good death" (ala Valhalla) that served the Godess.

[Devilman1975]

An alternate variation of them might work for that function. As it is now, they are essentially the Legion's Nemesis, the purpose of their existence is to oppose and destroy the Legion. Apparently the leader was "another" of the last member of the twisted hair tribe.

 

I've got to say I'm in favor of reusing some of the ideas that added some background to the Legion in a game that did not see the light of day. The Dog City Denver mod is based upon content in Van Buren and it is a pretty good mod.

 

I had a bit of looking around on the Fallout wiki and it mentioned that this Hecate had an encounter with the founder of the Twin Mothers tribe. The only mention of the Twin Mothers tribe in Fallout New Vegas is when Ulysses mentions them as another tribe that the Legion previously wiped out. From what I gathered about this tribe is that they were a more benevolent matriarchal tribe and if any survive to this day then they will most likely be Legion slaves in the capital city. The Twin Mothers founder Diana was a pre war scientist who preserved her brain and installed herself into the faciltity called the Nursery and posed as a goddess to a tribe that became the Twin Mothers. It's possible that the Legion overlooked the entrance to a vault or refused to enter due to Legion taboos when they wiped out the tribe. It's possible for Diane to exist in a new robot form, encounter Hecate an escaped tribal who has every reason to hate the Legion as much as she does and help her raise an army against the Legion.

 

Regarding the Daughters of Hecate I noticed that they take in a lot of exiled raiders. Most particularly the Vipers. It makes we wonder where all the raider gangs like the Fiends will immigrate to if players (supporting any faction) eventually force them out of the Mojave. Maybe increased numbers would make the Daughters of Hecate a greater threat to the Legion.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Devilman1975

[devinpatterson]

I don't mind seeing some resistance within the Legion against female players. Regardless of gender I think that any players wanting to be the next Caesar should be challenged by groups of hardliners within the Legion before and after killing Lanius.

 

If a female Courier killed Lanius in full view of the Legion then she will have proven the Legion's misogynistic philosophy wrong by killing the alpha male of the Legion. I can't imagine some elements of the Legion taking this scenario well.

I'm not sure that would necessarily cause any change in their philosophy. Stella is a good example to teh contrary, she "has killed many high ranking legionaries, including an elite centurion, with nothing more than her bare hands." and it doesn't cause the legion to reexamine their principals. They'r aware that there are exceptional female individuals but it doesn't change their beliefs in regard to the gender as a whole.

 

I think we need to decide whether this is an ethos intrinsic to their core or more of an edict from Caesar. We know the philosophy behind it (more so in regard to bots, than females), but is that Caesars ethos handed down or is it already a group ethos integrated into the legion as a whole?

 

And this applies equally to your post below in regard to bots;

 

As for the Legion Securitrons I figured that whoever becomes leader of the Legion can rewrite the rules as he/she sees fit. Of course I would expect an element of resistance from within the Legion over the use of technology. If the Securitron vault was not destroyed by the player on Caesar's orders then it would be an important military asset for the player's rise to power later on. I'm sure the player can hide Yes Man in the Lucky 38 for a while.

 

It's hard to piece it all together. In some aspects the Legion resembles Rome, but in many ways their methods are very different. Rome conquered most of the known world, but would leave local leaders or stewards in place and extract tribute for subjugate nations. The legion, on the other hand, completely destroys those it conquers and absorbs them...ala the borg. They (the legion) also have no checks and balance like a senate (to the best of my knowledge) or voting citizens. Woman also had substantial rights in Rome.

 

Another historical model is the Spartans. The Legions philosophy re: war, physical/mental conditioning and a social system that completely focused on military training and excellence mirrors the spartans. But the spartan women "enjoyed a status, power, and respect that was unknown in the rest of the classical world".

 

Then complicate that by the fact that my knowledge of history in general is weak and it's hard to find a good simulation.

 

My personal opinion is that the prohibition of woman and bots in combat is a systemic and deeply held legion philosophy and would effectively forbid a female Caesar. In Rome there were female gladiators (Gladiatrixes) and woman had far more rights than any in the legion, but there was never a female Caesar.

 

I think this qoute from the wiki sums it up well;

"Almost all members of the Legion express condescending and downright misogynistic opinions of women and their non-combat roles. While the portrayal of female slaves in Fallout: New Vegas follows standard stereotypes, it is important to reiterate that both females and males in the Legion are fully subjugated by Caesar - though women have the distinction of being considered 'sub-human' instead of merely slaves, due to the Legion's perception of their gender."

 

However that would cut out a lot players that have female couriers. And while I'm not necessarily opposed to that, there may be a bit of a middle ground. While I accept that most military positions/branches of the Legion contain no women there has to be at least one exception, the Frumentarii. I can't believe the Legion's spies could reach their full potential without female Frumentarii. They would be invaluable, and the legion would be severally ham-stringed if no woman could be spies, saboteurs, or assassins, as they can be in other factions like the NCR.

 

Perhaps that's a military branch of the Legion that a woman could progress in, and even possibly rise to be the true power behind the throne....as some women in Rome were. To the Legion as a whole the female courier would be unknown and this would sidestep any prejudice of the rank and file legionaries, but within the top or commanding ranks (where the Frumentarii reveal their natures) her position would be recognized in full (whether that's as a top Frumentarii, head of the Frumentarii or even one day Caesar).

 

Another thing about the Legion to consider is that it has not produced a leader that was born into the Legion yet. Caesar came from the NCR originally and Lanius was from a tribe that surrendered to the Legion. Potential is there for female or male Caesars to start a dynasty within the Legion. Could be another thing to upset some groups within the Legion.

Sure I think that a dynasty is certainly possible, even probable if things go well for the Legion. However I think the same prohibition would remain in regard to a female Caesar. However there were some interesting positions given to the wife of Caesars. One was the title of Agusta "It was bestowed on some women of the Imperial dynasties, as an indicator of worldly power and influence, and a status near to divinity. There was no qualification with higher prestige. The title or honorific was shared by state goddesses associated with the Imperial regime's generosity and provision" That might be a way to sidestep the Legion prejudice against all females (portraying her as a divinity) allowing power to be weilded by at least the females of the royal line/dynasty. However I have no clue on the Legion's beliefs in re: to religion(s).

[devinpatterson]

I had a bit of looking around on the Fallout wiki and it mentioned that this Hecate had an encounter with the founder of the Twin Mothers tribe. The only mention of the Twin Mothers tribe in Fallout New Vegas is when Ulysses mentions them as another tribe that the Legion previously wiped out.

I was familiar with the Twin Mothers from researching Diana (as a potential mod, but also as a template for the child-computer in sunset park), but I was unaware that they had been wiped out by the Legion (didn't know about Ulysses's reference).

 

Another thread of from the same tapestry is Derek Greenway/Greenway Hydroponics. I thought he was an interesting character and I wish there was more info on him above and beyond the nursery and vault 29. Not really pertinent to this thread, just interesting.

 

It's possible that the Legion overlooked the entrance to a vault or refused to enter due to Legion taboos when they wiped out the tribe. It's possible for Diane to exist in a new robot form, encounter Hecate an escaped tribal who has every reason to hate the Legion as much as she does and help her raise an army against the Legion.

Yeah I think Diana is safe(ish). She's in the Nursery, a very isolated and difficult to reach valley with only one tenuous clue in vault 29 as to her location, the satellite uplink dish. Some technical skill would be required to trace it back to her location. And that would only be if it hadn't been reset/erased before a tech savvy intruder could decode it and assuming the vault is accessible to the Legions attempts to enter it (or as you suggest they may not even be aware of it).

 

Regarding the actual vault (29), it is abandoned but near the tribe (forbidden lands, not sure how far from the village) and apparently some raiders had taken up residence near it. It's interesting that the wiki states "The area is currently being used as a camp by a group of raiders." of the forbidden lands. That indicates, to me, they are not in the vault proper itself and it may have been sealed long ago via Diana's directives, or at least isn't readily accessible.

 

if any survive to this day then they will most likely be Legion slaves in the capital city.

That's an interesting observation that could have implications for the Legion NV and anti-Legion endings.

 

For the Legion ending she could potentially have some resources to bear (both from the nursery and possibly from vault 29) to try and free her people. She has essentially raised them (by proxy) for several generations. First via the vault 29 zax and later as their goddess. She can't field an army but she does (or at least did), have access to worker robots from vault 29. If the twin mother slaves were spread about in various locations (as opposed to a military stronghold like the capital city) we could construct an interesting mod. A legion village(s) or small garrison(s) could be found destroyed (with or without survivors) and all the slaves escaped. A legion investigation (or survivor reports) could uncover details and clues leading to a few salient points (a high proportion of twin mother slaves were here, track marks indicate a bot etc) that eventually lead the player and Diana to a confrontation.

 

Whether the player follows tracks back or sets up observation at another location with a large population of twin mothers slaves (and follows the rescuers) s/he could eventually end up tracking down Diana at the nursery and following the layout proposed in the wiki. Because it's a very isolated and easily defended location, simply sending in troops would be counter productive. Instead a small strike party (along with the player) could proceed through the adventure, as laid out in the van buren design documents. While it's pretty brief, there are a few notes on dealing with aggressive/combative PCs (Ulysses's, the computer not the courier, "deathsquads" for example). Could be a fun mod, and a nice change from most of the Legion based encounters of pacifying and killing tribals.

 

For the Anti-Legion endings (mostly NCR, but perhaps independent NV's with a hatred for the legion) they could be brought into the mix by freeing some twin mother slaves and learning of their history. If they explore the twin mothers's lands they could follow the van buren design docs starting with vault 29 and leading to the nursery. Then perform the same objectives of rejuvenating the nursery that van buren players would. Once that's done they'd have a powerful, newly functional ally against the legion. Perhaps the twin mothers that are freed could at some point be relocated to the nursery for an additional quest.

 

It's possible for Diane to exist in a new robot form, encounter Hecate an escaped tribal who has every reason to hate the Legion as much as she does and help her raise an army against the Legion.

True, the enemy of my enemy.....

 

Maybe increased numbers would make the Daughters of Hecate a greater threat to the Legion.

Yeah good point, and it provides more fodder for Legion missions.