spoiler The ending of the game

[Lookimscared]

it says in one of the darkspawn codex's that some of the higher ranking ones

[i can't remember which one, I think it was Emissary]

Are able to speak English but it is very rare

I wasn't really that shocked when I watched the

Awakening trailer and saw that a darkspawn was talking English.

[DarkeWolf]

Morrigan making her way to orlais- in either ending, she's either seen heading towards the frostback mountains (which leads to orlais), or as was noted, makes a place for herself in the Olesian royal court. This to me, very much suggests that the Sequal may take place in Orlaise, and they are paving the road for her role in the sequel.

the fact that the expansion takes place in orlais reaffirms my theory for me personally.

Bit of letdown actually, I kinda like Ferelden. And I really prefer old english accents to french ones. (No offense to the french!)

 

No choice to it for me, Loghain dies. He's betrayed everything that he's ever believed in, or held dear. His hateful paranoia of the Orlesians would make it impossible for any kind of decent relations with that nation. He's willing to kill anybody who could cause him trouble, and that makes him no better than the king that he and Maric deposed to put Maric on throne. He became the evil that he hated. Soynara ^%$*head.

 

Yeah, Emissaries are more intelligent than the average DS. Makes sense, since they are spellcasters. In the books, the Emissaries had been known to throw taunts, demand surrenders, make tactical decisions, etc. I guess I'd call them the DS field-commanders.

the Architect however, is considerably more intelligent than the emissaries and has some very serious knowledge of magery.

In the book his end goal is to end the fighting tween the DS and the other races. It's a pipedream tho, nobody aboveground would go for it. 1) The ds spread the taint whereever they go. They'd infect any of the lands that they habitated, just as they did the Deep Roads. 2) The architect's plan would have pretty much killed off about 80-90% of the population.

 

Ok, so it's been established that the DS in the trailers isnt the Architect. So, probably a general. I dont think it's a darkspawn at all, but rather another Warden that decided to join the Architect's cause. 1) It would explain the intelligence, and the ability to speak. 2) it would explain why a Warden Commander would be getting sent into the conflict. I mean, if they found out that one of them DEFECTED to the other side, they're not gonna send just some average grunt to go make sure that the traitor dies.

[Tikkidew]

No choice to it for me, Loghain dies. He's betrayed everything that he's ever believed in, or held dear. His hateful paranoia of the Orlesians would make it impossible for any kind of decent relations with that nation. He's willing to kill anybody who could cause him trouble, and that makes him no better than the king that he and Maric deposed to put Maric on throne. He became the evil that he hated. Soynara ^%$*head.

LMAO :thumbsup:

 

That's so true. Though, there's a Loghain Love thread over at social.bioware where the majority of the posts try to legitimize all of Loghain's actions. I read through most of it. They make him look like a saint, that all his actions were ethical and only for the prosper of Ferelden. What I found most interesting about that thread was how seriously some people are about it.

[DarkeWolf]

No choice to it for me, Loghain dies. He's betrayed everything that he's ever believed in, or held dear. His hateful paranoia of the Orlesians would make it impossible for any kind of decent relations with that nation. He's willing to kill anybody who could cause him trouble, and that makes him no better than the king that he and Maric deposed to put Maric on throne. He became the evil that he hated. Soynara ^%$*head.

LMAO :thumbsup:

 

That's so true. Though, there's a Loghain Love thread over at social.bioware where the majority of the posts try to legitimize all of Loghain's actions. I read through most of it. They make him look like a saint, that all his actions were ethical and only for the prosper of Ferelden. What I found most interesting about that thread was how seriously some people are about it.

 

Well, I'm not gonna put anybody down for enjoying a character. I'll admit, after reading the first book, I liked him in that. Just really didnt like the man he became after.

[Tikkidew]

I'm with you. I haven't had the chance to read the books yet, but just through in-game lore I came to respect him for his past deeds but also wondered what happened to make him change the way he did. Evil as he is, Loghain is still a very interesting character.

[DarkeWolf]

I'm with you. I haven't had the chance to read the books yet, but just through in-game lore I came to respect him for his past deeds but also wondered what happened to make him change the way he did. Evil as he is, Loghain is still a very interesting character.

I personally think that a lot of it involved Maric's wife/queen. I'll keep it short so as not to spoil it if/when you read the books but Loghain ended up falling for her, even tho he knew that she loved Maric, and ended up later marrying Maric. In the second book it reveals that she ended up dying of Taint poisoning, which is a long, drawn out, wasting death. Pretty much the same as somebody who dies of bone marrow cancer. He and Maric both took that really hard.

That combined with the fact that he never really wanted to be a leader, and gets thrown into not only having a part of the country to take care of as a Teryn, he has to advise and kind a babysit Maric as he rules the entire kingdom.

I also think that part of it may have been Howe's influence on him. I think that Howe was a weasle and may have set up the assassinations, as well as the slavery trade in the Alienage. Loghain however, still turned a blind eye to it.

 

He is an interesting character. In a lot of ways I relate to him the same way that you do to Morrigan. Possibly good intentions, or possibly just to further his own means. But willing to take even extreme measures to see the end done. But I also see him as misguided and blinded by his own bias.

[Mlai]

I consider him misguided in that (1) he thinks a non-Warden army can defeat the Blight, and (2) he feels that Orlais is just as (or more) dangerous than the Blight. A good analogy for him would be Bush Jr and the Iraq War (though Bush Jr ain't half the man Loghain is). However, he's no more evil than the Wardens, who are willing to do anything for their well-intentioned goals. Just because he's opposing you doesn't automatically mean he's evil.

 

Although whether Cailan is a bad king is debatable... If he truly is a bad king as Loghain believes, then letting him die is not an evil act. Fereldan should not come to ruin at the hands of an incompetent king.

 

The sack of Highever was Howe's thing, not Loghain's. A Blight is no time to ponder over what evil act your major supporter did to one of the king's political allies. This "blind eye" act is what the USA does all the time, even in peacetime.

 

Elves from the Alienage being sold... phfft sorry but they're rabble, welcome to reality. I didn't even bother to raise that point during the Landsmeet.

 

Poisoning Eamon... I know why he did it. He has to prevent civil war, which is exactly what happened because Eamon lived.

 

Point is, he had to take a drastic step. The entire DAO is about him and his drastic step. In order to accomplish it, as soon as he starts he can't pussyfoot around.

[DarkeWolf]

Gotta disagree on this-

1) the entire DA:O is about stopping the Blight. Not about Loghain.

Getting Loghain out of power is only one part of that end goal. To stop the Blight/Arch Demon. So as to unify the armies to handle the DS while the Warden's go after the AD.

 

LOL while I really, really liked the comparison of Loghain to GB Jr. the movitations are different. I'm not arguing with you here, just saying that GBJ's motives were Money, and revenge. (Saddam did after all, try to assassinate his father, after GB Sr. was out of office). But yes, both of them did fall back on a lot of Retoric, national pride, and outright BS to their country to try to achieve the results they wanted.

 

Here's the thing tho. If you know Loghain's prior history before the game, then he's pretty much betrayed anything and everything that's mattered to him by his actions in the game.

1) Loghain wouldnt even BE ALIVE to do any of this if Maric hadn't saved his life in their first major battle together. Loghain had been sent out, dressed as Maric to draw away a part of the Orlesian forces that were closing in on them. The commander in charge, decided that Loghain was expendable, and didnt send reinforcements to back him up. Left him for dead.

It was Maric and Rowan who disobeyed this commander (who happened to be her father, just as trivia), took some knights and rode out to save him. This was the act that forged the friendship between he and Maric. And Rowan being the woman that he later fell in love with as his "one true love". (Also note that it was this battle where I BELIEVE that he met Ser Cauthrien, who was also a part of saving his life).

To leave the SON of the two people that he cares most about, on the field of battle; is an enormous betrayal not only to them, but to the act of them saving his life in the first place. He'd been left to die, just as he did to Cailen, their son. Thats pretty low.

 

2) Maric's own mother was killed by assassins who came under a flag of cooperation.

3) The WORST defeat that he and Maric had, was because of an assassin/spy that betrayed them to the former Orlesian King. A defeat that wiped out the majority of their army, and darned near cost them their rebellion. Now, keep in mind that this was a woman that Maric had fallen for. Loghain talked Maric into killing her. With his own hands, he stabbed her right thru the chest. Something that afterwards, Mac Tir felt a lot of regret over doing that to Maric.

But yet now here he is, employing the same methods as his enemy did?

 

Letting a person die, and leaving them to die, are two completely different things. However, it wasnt JUST Cailen that he left. he left a LOT of soldiers behind to get slaughtered. Soldiers that caused a lot of issues for him trying to replace. Half the nobles that rebelled against him was because of his demands for troops. Troops that HE caused the loss of. 1) These nobles need these men to defend their own lands. 2) Why would somebody want to send out these much needed men to somebody who could just walk away from them?

 

Ferelden should not come to ruin by an incompetent king. Loghain's actions were competent? By causing a civil war, by causing the loss of a large portion of his army, by making enemies of a faction that he needs the assistance of, by supporting the events that threw the circle of magi into turmoil and could have ended them altogther, when he also needs the mages... that's competent?

 

Howe's taking of Highever was indeed Howe's own doing. Motivated by jealousy, revenge, greed, and somehow thinking that he deserved it more than Couseland did. But it was Howe that brought the crows in against the Warden. I cant help but also think that he was responsible for bringing in the slave traders, and for hiring the assassin that poisoned Eamon. Granted, I have nothing to substantiate that with, other than his actions based on hiring Zev and the crows.

 

The blind eye policy. See...thats where the difference lies in good and evil. Evil allows such things to happen, even if it doesn't encourage it. Good on the other hand, does something to put and end to it. So yes, in that aspect, I'm calling the governing bodies of many of the world's countries evil. Yes, I'm calling government agencies evil.

 

Ok, so....Loghain is more than willing to take what he needs by force if necessary. If so, why is he listening to howe? If he can take what he needs from him by force, he doesnt need the man.

[Mlai]

Gotta disagree on this-

1) the entire DA:O is about stopping the Blight. Not about Loghain.

Blight and AD are just the backdrop. Loghain is what the real drama of this story is about.

 

LOL while I really, really liked the comparison of Loghain to GB Jr. the movitations are different... But yes, both of them did fall back on a lot of Retoric, national pride, and outright BS to their country to try to achieve the results they wanted.

Yes I think Loghain's objectives are far far nobler than GBJ's, though just as misguided.

 

Here's the thing tho. If you know Loghain's prior history before the game, then he's pretty much betrayed anything and everything that's mattered to him by his actions in the game.

I think Loghain feels he's looking at the bigger picture. You can save him and his dog's life 10000 times, but if you do anything that will harm Fereldan the nation (as he sees it), he will still kill you.

 

If for example, baby Cailan was jumped on by 10 hungry wolves, I have no doubt Loghain would dive in barehanded if he has to, to save the boy.

 

However, it wasnt JUST Cailen that he left. he left a LOT of soldiers behind to get slaughtered. Soldiers that caused a lot of issues for him trying to replace.

As far as he's concerned... it's either lose those soldiers, or lose everything (including those soldiers).

 

I didn't get the impression that Fereldan lost "half her army" at Ostagar. Just 1 battalion or so. Loghain had resistance from the nobles for trying to *expand* the size of the national army (beyond what it was originally, before Ostagar). Nobles felt their independence threatened.

 

Ferelden should not come to ruin by an incompetent king. Loghain's actions were competent? By causing a civil war, by causing the loss of a large portion of his army...

He would have been far more successful in his plans if you weren't around. He still wouldn't have been able to beat the Blight, though.

 

Ok, so....Loghain is more than willing to take what he needs by force if necessary. If so, why is he listening to howe? If he can take what he needs from him by force, he doesnt need the man.

Every leader needs minions who get the dirty work done.

[Tikkidew]

There's much to be said about Loghain and the choices he has made. I've seen many, many Loghain supporters rationalize his actions until they were blue in the face. I admire Loghain for standing up for his beliefs but I do not agree with the actions he took to keep them.

 

If Maric were alive to see what Loghain had become, I assure you he would not rest until he saw Loghain come to justice. He is a vicious and sinister man. He's a deviate leader of men and uses power and manipulation to forward his resolve. A person who was true and valiant would never engage in such undermining tactics. Completely delusional and devoid of any sort of morality in his actions, Loghain is just a shell of the man he once was. No matter how noble his intention might have been, Loghain deserves no greater punishment then a quick death.

 

Letting him become a Warden and facing a hero's demise on the Battle field is completely absurd. Becoming a Grey Warden is an honor and a privilege, not a reward for the cruel acts Loghain has unleashed upon Ferelden, it's King and it's people.

 

Alistair Approves (+10)