spoiler The ending of the game

[brokenergy]

Bann Conobar is a cousin of the Howe family and when he was killed by Flemeth, Highever was given to the Couslands after that. Arl Howe took over Highever because he wanted what was that he considered his birthright but he couldn't perdict what would happen to his family because of his actions. I posted the link that explains more.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Highever

[DarkeWolf]

VERY interesting read! Thanks for sharing that lnk amigo!

1) Did not know that Howe was related to Conobar!

2) Did not realize that Highever had been at war with Amaranthine, which is Howe's lands.

 

 

Ok, so I'm seriously noticing a trend of family traits here. Conobar was a lustful, greedy man who had no honor and didnt hold to his word. Then here comes Howe.

We've got the fact that Amora is so much like Loghain.

We've got Cailen and Alistaire who are so much like Maric.

We've got Bryce Cousland that fought in the rebellion against the throne and his son/daughter who does the same (if you play human noble).

And then we've got Flemeth and Morrigan.

 

Hmmm. LOL I think that if Howe had tried to go after Morrigan like Connobar did her mother, she'd just melt his face off.

 

 

10 days till the expansion!

[Lookimscared]

Any idea when the expansion comes out in Australia?

[DarkeWolf]

As far as I know, it's scheduled to be available for download from everywhere on the 16th. You can already pre-order it from the site.

 

Wow, thinking about that now, makes me wonder how overloaded their servers are gonna be with traffic.

[brokenergy]

Any idea when the expansion comes out in Australia?

 

Probably a few days after the release in the US

[mickeymcp]

A few points I've considered here, so please read through entirely for my "take" on things before nit-picking ... and yes, this keeps the sideline conversation alive :thumbsup:

 

Both Cailan and Loghain were idiots; one for being blinded by the glory of fighting with Wardens (without taking the DS threat seriously), and the other for blindly thinking Wardens weren't needed to end a Blight (aka. without taking the DS threat seriously).

 

Loghain was/is a deeply complex and broken hero (hero you say?!?!?); He's Fereldon's hero having liberated the country from the Orlais and clearly it would have driven him crazy knowing Cailan was enlisting support from the Orlesian's. Did Cailan deserve the death he got? No, that was an exceedingly evil-dickish thing for Loghain to do, but how else does one deal with the reigning monarch when you don't agree with policy?

 

I'd give some credibility to the point that Loghain was unaware of what Howe was (mostly) up to - you put your trust into some miscreant to run things and they'll tell you everything's fine while they're bleeding things dry behind your back. The only questionable Loghain-Howe connection is Howe's move against Couslands and how this happens prior to the battle at Ostagar. The assumption, that it takes more than the 30 second cutscene to *really* travel to Ostagar, would mean weeks before Ostagar and before Loghain has Regent powers to elevate Howe's powers, Howe's working on this own - perhaps it was out of a sense of entitlement to the lands the family lost when Cronobar died.

[roninsoul7]

I mostly agree with your statements mickey, though with some addendums. Loghain was more than an idiot for turning his back on a threat and trying to sieze power without the full backing of the majority of the Landsmeet prior to Cailan's death. For a supposed hero who has fought a war before and knows the devastation that it brings, inciting a civil war right when you have an EPIC threat that keeps getting passed down generation to generation, is a tactical nightmare. A war on two fronts for any general is something to be avoided, add on top of that, he already set up the process for one of the Arl's to be poisoned (the work of a poisoning coward who knows he is on shaky ground) and what you have is someone who's dropped the concept of hero altogether. Throw in a dash of Human Noble says "Rendon just murdered my family and overran my home." and you get something akin to a door knob who deserves The Axe. All my playthroughs and I never once let that level of stupidity live, which means one of my achievements stays locked.

 

Cailan's big stupidity was yes, not taking the blight serious enough, but still, he reached out for aid from the Orlesian, suggesting that even with glory in front of his eyes, he was doing his best to contain the situation. Though if you read through most of the codex's involving him and his wife Anora, everyone loved her and always thought he was a bit of a dullard, had Loghain followed his Liege's plan, that wave would have died and Lothering would not have fallen that day. On top of that, when it was successful, he would have gained credit for being something other than Anora's token king.

 

Anora herself is another bag of backstabbing wonder, in fact I had wished that bioware let me "Off with her head!" the moment she betrayed me after freeing her, goes to show that indeed the apple is not falling far from the treacherous tree.

 

Rendon Howe (Props to our favourite voice actor Tim Curry) was a villain through and through, and if you are supposed to be in charge and cannot keep one man from messing your kingdom up, even after a warning that he did something reprehensible, then you deserve the pain of his double dealings, and an unceremonious knife to the back for not controlling your underlings. (Ceasar didn't keep tabs, and Brutus stabbed him in the back, history showing that even way back then, knowing what your people are up to is a GREAT idead) As a person living in a democracy, I can honestly say if my government were to say one day "Ooops, we didn't notice the local mayors selling our people to overseas slave markets." I would be less than impressed and quite likely to start a revolt if it came down to it, so that the idiots in supposed charge would never fumble the ball so badly again. History shows that when the people rise up, it doesn't matter what level of leader you are, death and change swiftly follows.

[SpellAndShield]

I mostly agree with your statements mickey, though with some addendums. Loghain was more than an idiot for turning his back on a threat and trying to sieze power without the full backing of the majority of the Landsmeet prior to Cailan's death. For a supposed hero who has fought a war before and knows the devastation that it brings, inciting a civil war right when you have an EPIC threat that keeps getting passed down generation to generation, is a tactical nightmare. A war on two fronts for any general is something to be avoided, add on top of that, he already set up the process for one of the Arl's to be poisoned (the work of a poisoning coward who knows he is on shaky ground) and what you have is someone who's dropped the concept of hero altogether. Throw in a dash of Human Noble says "Rendon just murdered my family and overran my home." and you get something akin to a door knob who deserves The Axe. All my playthroughs and I never once let that level of stupidity live, which means one of my achievements stays locked.

 

Cailan's big stupidity was yes, not taking the blight serious enough, but still, he reached out for aid from the Orlesian, suggesting that even with glory in front of his eyes, he was doing his best to contain the situation. Though if you read through most of the codex's involving him and his wife Anora, everyone loved her and always thought he was a bit of a dullard, had Loghain followed his Liege's plan, that wave would have died and Lothering would not have fallen that day. On top of that, when it was successful, he would have gained credit for being something other than Anora's token king.

 

Anora herself is another bag of backstabbing wonder, in fact I had wished that bioware let me "Off with her head!" the moment she betrayed me after freeing her, goes to show that indeed the apple is not falling far from the treacherous tree.

 

Rendon Howe (Props to our favourite voice actor Tim Curry) was a villain through and through, and if you are supposed to be in charge and cannot keep one man from messing your kingdom up, even after a warning that he did something reprehensible, then you deserve the pain of his double dealings, and an unceremonious knife to the back for not controlling your underlings. (Ceasar didn't keep tabs, and Brutus stabbed him in the back, history showing that even way back then, knowing what your people are up to is a GREAT idead) As a person living in a democracy, I can honestly say if my government were to say one day "Ooops, we didn't notice the local mayors selling our people to overseas slave markets." I would be less than impressed and quite likely to start a revolt if it came down to it, so that the idiots in supposed charge would never fumble the ball so badly again. History shows that when the people rise up, it doesn't matter what level of leader you are, death and change swiftly follows.

 

If you talk to the Redcliffe knight in Lothering he will tell you that the Arl fell ill BEFORE the king was killed at Ostagar; this suggests that Loghain was planning it from the start.

[Lordapolyon]

I remember some mods for Morrowind that let you have sex with some of the NPC's. Maybe Bioware caught wind of it, and thought it was a good idea.

 

 

Here's my problem with chasing her down. IF both of them are together, thats gonna be one hell of a fight. Especially if Morrigan is based off the party member's build. I dunno about you guy's but I taught Morrigan some very nasty tricks. Throw her and Flemeth together, and I wouldnt wanna face them without at least two templars busting up their ability to cast!

Oh crap. I used the Evoker mod, so im seeing me Vs. Morrigan w/ cone of cold, Flemeth Dragon, Evil god baby, and 4-5 Pride Demon/ Desire Demon. Scary.

[CrapsterZ]

I've stated my views on Loghain before on another thread, and no doubt he is a villain in direct opposition to you in the game, but I can understand him. The Loghain vs Warden conflict highlights an important conflict we see throughout history - between the honorable and righteous path and the one where the ends justify the means. You as the player are the character which sees that the Blight must be stopped - but not at the expense of morality (depending on your choices in game anyway) - and Loghain is the ruthless leader who will do whatever it takes to see his flock of sheep safe, even if it means leaving some behind - even the most valuable one - to save the rest of the flock.

 

I don't doubt for a moment that Cailan was a poor leader. As much as I got the idea he was an honorable and good king, I do agree with Loghain that his fascination with legends and glory did blind him to the dangers of the Blight - and that he was a poor wartime leader. He was right to say that their quarrels with Orlais were a thing of the past and that seeking aid from them might not necessarily be as dangerous as Loghain claims, but he was a politician, not a general like Loghain was. Let's face it, throughout all of history the only kings we see riding into battle were either bred from a history of fighting or battle, or incredibly stupid. Granted, kings did go to the battlefield, but they hardly ever JOINED the battle - like Bann Teagan mentions, they are "skilled enough to know there are others far more capable". Cailan was blind to that, and Loghain was justified to think that Cailan was "a child wanting to play at war" as he likens the Warden to. Not saying that what he did was right, but if I were in Loghain's shoes I'd understand what must be going on through his mind "If the king wants to fight, I'll let him see how foolish it is, even if he dies. Let someone else smarter be king and lead the nation"

 

Unfortunately, the someone was the Warden, and not him like he thought, which was why when you opt to execute him, he says "I can rest easy knowing Ferelden is good hands." He is humble enough at least, to admit defeat and recognize the merits of both a capable warrior and wartime leader ie, you, to accept his death - his most beloved, Ferelden, would be safe and he could rest easy. Loghain is a zealot who would turn against even his best friend and family for the greater good, though his means are by no means right, I can admire that in an adversary. I would have course say he was the true villain of the game, not the archdemon. (Dealing with the DS is simple: Kill. Loghain? How do you exactly go about defeating him WITHOUT the political repercussions against your order?)

 

As for Howe's involvement, if you question him before you fight him, he does mention that another motivation was that Bryce Cousland supported the king's call for aid from Orlais, and Howe saw it as an act of treason for allowing them to even set foot in Ferelden, thus he and Loghain had similar goals. I don't believe that he was working with Loghain at all - since if we assume that all the origin stories occured at the same time (this we at least know since there are events in game that seem to indicate this) with varying results depending on who we play (ie, Jowan escapes the circle but his mage friend might not have been spared, if you're not a mage), then Arl Eamon's poison would've occured AFTER your origin story and sometime after Ostagar (Loghain was already there with the king and I'd highly doubt he'd be able to arrange for Jowan to be released from templar custody if he was in charge of the army there)

 

Taking also into account that Morrigan tells you you've been unconscious for two-three days after Ostagar, and taking in the possibility that you would most probably not have gone directly to Lothering (remember that the horde is still in the Wilds) and taken detours along the way, we know that Arl Eamon was possibly poisoned after the battle of Ostagar and before your arrival in Lothering (where you find Ser Donall). Possibly a week or so, and it would make sense that the templars would've been somewhere in the area between Redcliffe and Lothering and Denerim, where Loghain would most probably have passed by when they caught Jowan, then we can say for certain that Eamon's poisoning was sort of a "last minute" plan, or at least, it wasn't Loghain's Plan A (which was, I believe, to really win the battle at Ostagar up till the point where he became convinced the king was not amenable to wisdom, as he puts it, as we clearly see in the strategy meeting cutscene)

 

Alistair has his faults too, no matter how you look at it. He is unwilling to put the threat of the Blight above his vendetta against Loghain (ie, something he is SUPPOSED to do as a Warden), and storms off because of it. I like all the DA:O (well, most of them) main characters for the way they are, that no matter their alignment for or against you, each of them have their own personal motivations, fears and flaws that work for and against you.

 

Back on topic, I'd say as to DA2's content, remember that Flemeth did warn the Warden during his task that "the threat is greater than they realize" could she simply referring to the Architect and his schemes or is she foreshadowing that the Blight is not truly over or that a greater evil is behind it? Remember that she also says Loghain believes the Blight is an army he can outmanoevre and does not recognize the true evil behind it, and she does NOT confirm Alistair's conjecture that it is the archdemon. Could it be that something else other than the Architect's plans caused the start of the Blight, or threatens to bring it back even before Ferelden has fully recovered? Very likely. Remember that everything Flemeth has mentioned in her dialogue with you has foreshadowed some part of the plot - she sends Morrigan saying that her magic will be useful (ie, keeping you alive after you slay the archdemon) and the line about her "paying Morrigan a visit" may well be a major plot point for introducing Morrigan in DA2, it seems the most plausible way to me, that Morrigan, regardless of whether the Warden has romanced her or accepted her offer to do the ritual, would turn to the Warden - who presumably has defeated Flemeth once and stood against the Blight - to keep her safe, child or no. BW has a habit of dropping clues in the most mundane places, so it's really nice to try and dissect everything they tell you in the game and how they phrase it.