spoiler Which king is better for orzammar.

[Thandal]

How does treating the casteless as though they were sub-human honorable?

 

It is honorable in the same way as the Qunari's denying of choice in role or profession is honorable in their system. It is honorable in the same way as any other system of values that the members of a society struggle to uphold is honorable. Dwarven society, as warped as many aspects may appear to us, still does not view forgery, perjury, fratracide, murder, as honorable. Bhelen sticks at nothing, no matter how despicable (even in Dwarven terms) in his quest for power. Thus, he lacks honor within his own, or any other system.

 

 

(At the time we have to make the choice, we haven't read the Epilogue slides and learned "how it all turned out". :laugh: )

 

I think that was intentional. Unless you play as a dwarf, you never really get a real understanding of Orzammar; as an outsider, you have to make educated guesses based on limited information. On the surface, Harrowmont seems like the moral choice, but it's only if you completed the game or heard the criers that you learn that Harrowmont has no issue with the casteless being stepped on. Harrowmont becomes a poor King and does nothing to change things, while Bhelen is directly responsible for the casteless getting more rights.

But as I've said before, he does so only because he thinks that's the most effective way at the moment to further his personal ambitions. If crushing them underfoot would have served him better, THAT'S what he would have advocated, and may yet do as soon as soon as he feels it might help him more.

 

Bhelen isn't acting out of a sense of what's "right", or "what's best for the Casteless", or even "what's best for the Dwarves." Just "whatever's best for Bhelen." And THAT'S almost always a receipe for long-term disaster, not not mention dishonor.

[RustyBlade]

It is honorable in the same way as the Qunari's denying of choice in role or profession is honorable in their system. It is honorable in the same way as any other system of values that the members of a society struggle to uphold is honorable. Dwarven society, as warped as many aspects may appear to us, still does not view forgery, perjury, fratracide, murder, as honorable. Bhelen sticks at nothing, no matter how despicable (even in Dwarven terms) in his quest for power. Thus, he lacks honor within his own, or any other system.

 

Using that logic and given the twisted and back-stabbing nature of Dwarven politics the prince is no more or less dishonorable than his rival, it's just how the system works. Harrowmont tries to cheat two families (forgery, fraud, larceny, influence peddling) sends his followers to "stop the warden" (assault, battery, mayhem, attempted murder) and who knows what else he has done that we don't know about. Now if you see Bhelen as dishonorable how can you call Harrowmont honorable?

[Thandal]

It is honorable in the same way as the Qunari's denying of choice in role or profession is honorable in their system. It is honorable in the same way as any other system of values that the members of a society struggle to uphold is honorable. Dwarven society, as warped as many aspects may appear to us, still does not view forgery, perjury, fratracide, murder, as honorable. Bhelen sticks at nothing, no matter how despicable (even in Dwarven terms) in his quest for power. Thus, he lacks honor within his own, or any other system.

 

Using that logic and given the twisted and back-stabbing nature of Dwarven politics the prince is no more or less dishonorable than his rival, it's just how the system works. Harrowmont tries to cheat two families (forgery, fraud, larceny, influence peddling) sends his followers to "stop the warden" (assault, battery, mayhem, attempted murder) and who knows what else he has done that we don't know about. Now if you see Bhelen as dishonorable how can you call Harrowmont honorable?

When I played it through for the first time (a human PC, as it happened), I did not encounter ANY attempt by Harrowmont to do any of the things you attribute to him. It was only when I played my second and subsequent times and listened to more of what Bhelen's Second had to say that I saw BHELEN trying to make it appear that Harrowmont was doing any of those things, mostly through the planting what were independently (by the Shapers) judged to be forged documents. (Oh yeah, forgot to add Blackmail to the list of Bhelen's methods.)

 

Harrowmont uses the "Dwarf-Honored" techniques of The Proving, cleaning out the organized criminals, and seeking the support of a Paragon, (or her memory.) And when defeated in the attempt, (if you choose Bhelen) concedes gracefully.

 

Bhelen uses intimidation, duplicity, bribery, forgery, blackmail, murder. And if you select Harrowmont, refuses to accept the will of the Assembly or the Paragons, and immediately attempts a coup d'etat. Tell me again why anyone (who doesn't benefit personally) supports him?

[RustyBlade]

But you are forgetting that the shapers are in Harrowmont's pocket. They are his cousins and can you really trust their say so?

 

Other than the proving, (which Bhelen called) Bhelen also cleans out the carta and goes after the support of a paragon.

 

I'll concede the fact Bhelen is a sore loser but winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. A warden should realize that :wink:

[Thandal]

But you are forgetting that the shapers are in Harrowmont's pocket. They are his cousins and can you really trust their say so?

 

Other than the proving, (which Bhelen called) Bhelen also cleans out the carta and goes after the support of a paragon.

 

I'll concede the fact Bhelen is a sore loser but winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. A warden should realize that :wink:

Winning may be "the only thing" when it's for the greater cause of the survival of the species. When it's for one's personal gain, it's called many things, none of them "honorable". Bhelen is a despicable despot who pits the underclass against the powerful who oppose him. He has no "noble ends" to even try to put a fig leaf of justification on his naked ambition. And dismissing the testimony of the Shapers based on their relationship with Harrowmont is stretching thinigs. Again, our "source" for the smear is the one trying to deflect the accusation of forgery from himself. Somehow, the only one providing any "proof" of Bhelen's innocence is... Bhelen. And if you've played the DN Origin, you know that he lies every time you talk to him!

 

Harrowmont is many things, "bigoted" and "stupid" come immediately to mind. But if you discount what his self-acknowledged enemy says about him, he is honest and honorable (according to his own society's standards) in everything he does. Bhelen is anything but.

[RustyBlade]

Bhelen is a despicable despot who pits the underclass against the powerful who oppose him. He has no "noble ends" to even try to put a fig leaf of justification on his naked ambition. And dismissing the testimony of the Shapers based on their relationship with Harrowmont is stretching thinigs. Again, our "source" for the smear is the one trying to deflect the accusation of forgery from himself. Somehow, the only one providing any "proof" of Bhelen's innocence is... Bhelen. And if you've played the DN Origin, you know that he lies every time you talk to him!

 

The epitome of a Dwarven uber-politician :cool:

[LobselVith66]

When I played it through for the first time (a human PC, as it happened), I did not encounter ANY attempt by Harrowmont to do any of the things you attribute to him. It was only when I played my second and subsequent times and listened to more of what Bhelen's Second had to say that I saw BHELEN trying to make it appear that Harrowmont was doing any of those things, mostly through the planting what were independently (by the Shapers) judged to be forged documents. (Oh yeah, forgot to add Blackmail to the list of Bhelen's methods.)

 

Harrowmont uses the "Dwarf-Honored" techniques of The Proving, cleaning out the organized criminals, and seeking the support of a Paragon, (or her memory.) And when defeated in the attempt, (if you choose Bhelen) concedes gracefully.

 

Bhelen uses intimidation, duplicity, bribery, forgery, blackmail, murder. And if you select Harrowmont, refuses to accept the will of the Assembly or the Paragons, and immediately attempts a coup d'etat. Tell me again why anyone (who doesn't benefit personally) supports him?

 

He sees himself as the only one who should lead Orzammar, and given that he improves the nation, I can't disagree with that. Harrowmont is all about tradition - the tradition of keeping Orzammar isolated and keeping the casteless under their boot. You're also ignoring that Harrowmont bought the votes of those two families in question - how is that honorable? Bhelen is willing to change the status quo - the kind of society that thinks leaving a casteless baby in the Deep Roads is better than changing the laws to improve the lot of the casteless. How is allowing the casteless to suffer for further generations honorable by any sane definition? There's no honor in dwarven politics - it's all about getting ahead, no matter the methods. That's made perfectly clear in the Noble Dwarf Origin.

[Thandal]

[There's no honor in dwarven politics - it's all about getting ahead, no matter the methods. That's made perfectly clear in the Noble Dwarf Origin.

The only real info we have that "this is the way the things work in Orzammar" is from Bhelen himself. He's the one who claims Harrowmont bought support. He's the one who claims that the things he's doing are "no different" from what others would do. And there are many other examples, but they all come from Bhelen or his Second. So it seems to me that the Bhelen supporters are taking Bhelen's word that Harrowmont is a "bad, bad man." Whereas the independent opinions on Harrowmont are just that he's too "Tradition Bound", even to the point of hurting Orzammar.

 

That may be a fair critisism, but it isn't even in the same realm of failings as, oh, murdering a brother, framing a sibling for it, and forging evidence to discredit an opponent. There is no reason to trust Bhelen to even do what he says, much less think he'll deliver on it (unless what he says is, "I'll do whatever I have to keep myself in power."

[XTR3M368]

It is the lesser of 2 evils with both of those schmucks. Harrowmont isn't the paragon of honor either. He has no problem running you around just like Bhelen. The only way I would EVER consider being a dwarf is if you got to kick both of their sorry butts right out and rule yourself. Dwarf politics make my teeth itch. They ALL seem to be more concerned about what they want and look to only pay lip service to anything "for the greater good". Branka is an obsessed psychopath with delusions of grandeur...Ohgren is a drunken idiot that can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag and I find myself constantly wishing I could punch him in the face. At least Bhelen is openly corrupt. I would much rather have someone be a jerk up front than have someone be nice to my face but a jerk as soon as you turn around. Harrowmont is corrupt too but tries to hide it....just like all of our real life politicians are and do....he says he is for the people while he wipes the castless off the heel of his boot. They both disgust me and I absolutely detest that mission....HOORAY! that someone is looking into a "skip part of that quest" mod.

[RustyBlade]

It really imitates real life politics where the voter is faced with the disheartening fact that both candidates suck and have to try and decide which is the "best" one, only in DA it is taken to the extreme. Only scenario I can think of to compare would be being at war with [pick your favorite evil country] and your choice for leadership is Jimmy Carter or George W. Bush o_O :wallbash: