spoiler Which king is better for orzammar.

[Thandal]

... Only scenario I can think of to compare would be being at war with [pick your favorite evil country] and your choice for leadership is Jimmy Carter or George W. Bush o_O :wallbash:

Ouch! Too True. (And PLEASE! No flame wars over which former head of state would/should be cast in which role. :laugh: )

 

I also realized in thinking through all my experiences in Orzammar, and all the dialogue branches NOT followed (e.g. I didn't know that it was even possible to make the accusation of Kinslaying justified until my son told me. In my playthroughs, "I was framed. Honest!") I realized that we may all have accurate, but differing impressions of what's going on there and which character's version of the situation comes closer to "the truth".

 

In YOUR playthrough as a DN, everything Bhelen tells you may prove to be the case; Trian really is going to do you in, and Harrowmont really is trying to double-deal the other Houses to get support. While in mine, he may be lying the whole time; Bhelen is really just setting you up to take the fall for his crime, and he really did dummy up those duplicate deeds to make Harrowmont look bad. If so, then you and I will have very different, but equally correct views on these matters.

 

Ahhhh, the wonderous possibilites of multi-threaded fiction and reader/PC decisions! :biggrin:

[Aoeworth]

But you are forgetting that the shapers are in Harrowmont's pocket. They are his cousins and can you really trust their say so?

 

Other than the proving, (which Bhelen called) Bhelen also cleans out the carta and goes after the support of a paragon.

 

I'll concede the fact Bhelen is a sore loser but winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. A warden should realize that :wink:

Winning may be "the only thing" when it's for the greater cause of the survival of the species.

 

There, right there. That's the point. (At least in my character's persona and the way I played out this part of the game). While running through this quest, my warden was shaking his head the whole time thinking...bloody politics.

 

But that is the point here. Our survival is under threat and 'pleasantries' like good guy bad guy has no place. It really is survival of the fittest mode. Who can do what needs to be done. Here, Bhelen is the clear choice. Ruthless and decisive. With the darkspawn marching on Denerim we do not have time to mess around appeasing everyone. This is where Harrowmont fails. In a time of peace, trade..(err Harrowmont still not great on that) and time is not of the essence then sure Harrowmont would be a good choice. But with Darkspawn knocking, Bhelen all the way, I even agree with him getting rid of Harrowmont, why? Because Harrowmont would just harrow his efforts to do anything. :P

[Ysmene]

I don't think there is any *right* answer to this question.

 

That is, I don't think the designers sat down and said that "This is the wrong choice for king, and this is the right choice." Instead, they presented two candidates who both have sketchy pasts, yet also possess good leadership qualities. It's up to the interpretation of individual players (sometimes colored by their PC's views, of course) to pick which king is better or worse for Orzammar as a whole.

 

When I played through the first time as a City Elf, Orzammar was the last map I went through, and my Warden had enough. She didn't care for dwarven politics, she just wanted to pick a king who'd honor the treaties. So she flipped a coin, and Bhelen won. The only right choice was the one who gave her soldiers, and since both of them were willing, it really didn't matter to her who got the crown. My Human Noble supported Bhelen just because he's got Ideas about bloodlines and succession, though I think my next playthrough will go for Harrowmont just to make things interesting.

 

I really enjoy the depth the game gives when it comes to the two. It's not an easy choice, and there's no clear answer. They're both kind of awful people, but is one any worse than the other in terms of serving the dwarven people?

 

Frankly, I think letting the dwarven cleric open a chantry in Orzammar is going to be far more destructive in terms of dwarven culture than either Bhelen or Harrowmont could accomplish if they tried.

[iateacrayon]

Personally I choose Harrowmont because I like the quest better. Though when I had Zev in my party I went with Bhelen.

 

Totally agree here. I'll go tournament fights over map explores any day. The starter quests don't matter, since you always get to choose who gets the crown made by the Chosen Paragon. Harrowmont is nice right up to the point where you realize in the epilogue that he really clamps down on existing rules and stops outside contact. Bhelen is a pain in the ass but he opens up the kingdom more. Gotta say Bhelen was better choice.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

My impression of Bhelen is that, while he's a ruthless (pick your foul description), he is not ultimately a self-serving individual. He has a very clear vision of what he wants to do, believes that he is the only one who can get it done, and sets off to do it no matter how low he has to stoop to get there. He sees the bigger picture- that Dwarven society must either change or perish- and is determined not to let the latter come to pass. I don't get the impression that he particularly cares how he's remembered as long as he succeeds in turning Orzammar around. His ideas upset the status quo far too much for him to trust any of the other major players in Orzammar; he knows that if he tried the diplomatic approach it would fail miserably if only because the rest of the politicians don't see a problem with the way things are. They're comfortable, so they're content. Dwarves are stubborn by nature; they only accept change when it is forced down their throats, so when a reformer comes along the only way he's ever going to get results is to be underhanded and absolutely ruthless.

 

Comparisons with Stalin really don't hold water- Stalin was concerned only with power and prestige, and his paranoia led him to murder millions of his own people. Bhelen is perfectly willing to roll heads when he doesn't get his way, but he doesn't see power as an end unto itself- the end is reform and the recovery of the Dwarven empire; power is the means to that end.

 

Bhelen limits his purging to the people who really are in the way- he doesn't kill people out of hand just for disagreeing with him, or for consorting with his enemies. He disposes of his siblings (and probably his father) because he knows he is last in the line of succession and that his plan will never come to fruition if anyone else gets the throne. He executes Harrowmont because He knows that he has to attain power first and foremost, and then work on bringing everyone around to his way of thinking. Does that make him a tyrant? Absolutely. However, his would be a benevolent tyranny rather than a malignant tumor feeding off the spoils of his nation. If he refuses to let go of power, it will be because he does not believe his successor will follow through on his reforms- not because he's power-hungry.

[Thandal]

... Bhelen limits his purging to the people who really are in the way- he doesn't kill people out of hand just for disagreeing with him, or for consorting with his enemies. He disposes of his siblings (and probably his father) because he knows he is last in the line of succession and that his plan will never come to fruition if anyone else gets the throne. He executes Harrowmont because He knows that he has to attain power first and foremost, and then work on bringing everyone around to his way of thinking. Does that make him a tyrant? Absolutely. However, his would be a benevolent tyranny rather than a malignant tumor feeding off the spoils of his nation. If he refuses to let go of power, it will be because he does not believe his successor will follow through on his reforms- not because he's power-hungry.

So? Not Stalin, but Hitler? Every item presented here for justifiying Behlen's acrtions could be appiled to Adolph. Especially; I'm the one with the vision... I only have the good of the nation in mind... I only eliminate those who don't "come around to my way of thinking."

 

Bah! They are both poor choices, Harrowmont is close-minded and weak. Behlen is vile and selfish. A stupid person can still be taught to be better, but an evil one cannot. Behlen represents the worse choice because he is mad for the throne in the same way Loghain is, "I justify killing anyone who opposes me because, by my own defintion, to oppose me, is to oppose the nation."

 

How is this anything but bloody tyranny enforced with the sword or fear of the sword? Behlen's first act on his path to the throne is the same as his first act upon gaining it: murder. A maligancy that will only grow as he makes more and more enemies in his "I'm not power-hungry, I was just looking out for my 'reforms' when I had your father/sister/son killed, so it was for a noble cause" kind of way.

[Lawlder]

Bhelen, obviously, but considering that my characters can't see the future, they go for Harrowmont. He is a lame king to be, but it's only a good thing considering my characters are Elves.

[Sync182]

I've never chosen Behlen in my playthroughs so far (although I'll pick him one day for the trophy ;) ).

 

Things that lead my characters to support Harrowmont:

 

* The promissory notes Vartag gives you to sway Helmi and Dace towards Behlen are found to be, when you check with the Shaperate, forgeries. Yes, the Shaper is Harrowmont's cousin, but it's also easy enough to look in the Dwarven archives to see the truth for your own eyes, so there's no point in the Shaper lying about it. Also, if you confront Vartag about the notes being forged, Vartag will readily agree that they're forged and that this is how the game is played.

* If you scour the Royal Palace at any time you can, in one of the bedrooms, find a letter/note/diary entry from Endrin decrying Behlen as useless and not worthy of being king (more or less).

* There is a woman (she appears right after the opening scenewhen you first enter the Commons, then she moves to the Diamond Quarter - can't remember her name) who will tell you things she's seen and heard about Behlen that lend to the conclusion that Harrowmont is a better choice.

 

 

I'll also admit that I have yet to play through the Dwarven Origin stories - I have a hard time playing short, squat characters... :whistling:

[ElliotKane]

Bhelan is a self-centred, ruthless, power-hungry wretch... But a far better king for Orzammar than Harrowmont. Harrowmont is a far better person and most of my characters side with him for that reason, but he's a very poor king and is very bad for Orzammar.

 

My first character to choose Bhelen did so because she saw in him a fellow ruthless swine who would do whatever it took to get the job done. Other characters, disliking his blatant greed and ambition, sided with Harrowmont.

[Cobwebmaster]

Choices

 

This is an easy one. Your duty as a Grey Warden is to protect against the Blight. Harrowmont has confessed that he will not be a strong King and will hold to the traditional ways. The traditional ways are getting Orzammar nowhere as they are fighting a losing battle against the darkspawn and have been for centuries. Ergo Bhelen has to be the choice. From the available candidates Bhelen is always going to be the better choice for the dwarven people with or without extra golems. if you play your cards right (as a dwarf noble) you can almost guarantee that Bhelen will not get too out of hand

Edited January 29, 2011 by Cobwebmaster