[ideas] To Greatly Improve Balance And Realism

[Erialeth]

First of all, since I'm new to the forums, hi everyone. I already posted this in the official forum - mods section, but given the faster-than-light speed at which those posts get to the second page there, I wasn't able to gain much attention.

 

First of all, I want to congratulate with the modding community, which in a single week has already realeased almost 200 mods; and that's a lot if you ask me. However, I also happen to have a few ideas that I think could change the game for the better, especially in the balance and realism departments. Of course, being the total noob I am, I don't even know if they all would be possible to realize, but hey, that's why I am asking to the modding heroes around this board. So here we go:

 

 

BETTER HAND TO HAND

 

It seems to me, both from my limited experience and the talkings in this forum, that this style of combat compared to the other ones is rather pale. Moreover, I think that, albeit still a great improvement over Morrowind, it's still somewhat irrealistic. To try and address these issues, I think we could do two things:

 

1- Slightly improve the chances of disarming / knockbacking / causing recoil / paralyze when blocking and attacking.

 

2- Make it so blocking with bare hands refers to the highest skill rating between H2H and Block, and not the Block skill only. In practice, this would mean that the H2H Skill would be all you need to both attack AND block while bare handed; at the same time, of course, while blocking in H2H you would give half the experience value to H2H and half to Block (and in this case it could be a good idea to slightly lessen the experience value of both blocking and attacking in h2h, since the two of them would contribute to the same skill; and we don't want anything skyrocketing here). I think this would both greatly improve the utility of the skill and be more realistic, since from what I know of martial arts the acts of attacking the opponent and defending from his moves are always part of the very same techniques.

 

3- [EDIT] I had forgotten, but as many other have already suggested, hand to hand weapons like small knives / knuckles / kamas / gauntlets would also be a great idea.

 

 

A SENSE TO THE UNARMOURED

 

Another issue I seem to find is that right now, even for mages or thieves, there's virtually no advantage to going around unarmoured; and I think that's not so great, considering that, in reality, even light armour is way more encumbering and difficult to move in than regular clothes. To address this, here we go:

 

1- Greatly augment the penalties to spellcasting in heavy armour (so that even at 100 Heavy Armour the Spell Efficiency would be around 80-85%, while at Novice levels something around 20-25), slightly augment them for light armour (100 Spell Efficiency reached only at Expert or Master levels, at Novice levels something around 40-50). An even better idea for this would be to base this penalty for roughly a 75-90% on the WORN armour, while a 25-10% would be based on the current encumbering (to avoid too easily getting around this by taking off armour to launch off-combat spells, while at the same time not penalizing too much the looting capacity).

 

2- Try to find a way to implement heavy penalties to sneaking depending on the WHOLE armor, instead of just boots. I think the penalties should be very similar to the ones I suggested for magic (that is, for Heavy Armour 80+% penalty at Novice levels and 15-20% penalty at 100, for Light Armour around 40-50% penalty at Novice levels and 0% penalty at Expert levels). If I remember correctly, one the perks of the Sneak skill at Apprendice or Journeyman is to ignore the penalties for the boots; it this would be case, we should of course change this so that it simply slightly reduces said penalties for ALL the pieces of armour worn. As with the precedent point, an even better idea for this would be to base this penalty for roughly a 75-90% on the WORN armour, while a 25-10% would be based upon the current encumbering (to avoid too easily getting around this by taking off armour to sneak, while at the same time not penalizing too much the looting capacity).

 

3- On a less related note, change the Mastery level bonus for Heavy Armour to a bonus to the AR of 25-33%, similar to the same bonus of the Light Armour skill line; that is because I think it's rather dull that, by the end of the skill lines, both armours for the respective Masters would look more or less the same (Heavy Armour not encumbering at all, Light Armour being quite boosted in protection power); not to mention the physical irrealism of moving freely as a breeze inside of a 100 Kgs steel cage. In addiction, for equalization purposes, considering lowering the Light Armour skill Mastery level AR bonus to the same quantity (I have never seen the effects, but it seems to me that a +50% bonus is a rather HUGE one, on top of a 100 skill).

 

 

MORE REALISTIC COMBAT AND ARCHERY

 

It seems to me that in this game there's too much enphasis on a supposed "stealth" aspect of archery, while I think in most real situation the real advantage of said art is the possibility of inflicting a short-sword level damage from great distances. Why then this advantage, which should be present in the game, is not felt at all? I think that's because combat, like in too many rpgs, is too "minimized" in terms of letality and damage; I mean, sneak or not, wouldn't it great to be able to extort a third or a fourth of an enemy's health bar before it can actually charge at you? Of course, for balance purposes we should raise ALL damage values by more or less the same degree, but even if said melee monster would be even more deadlier than before (ONCE he reaches you, and that's the trick) isn't it true that an archer cornered by it is already dead meat even in the current game situation? I say enjoy at least a superior level of advantage-gaining from the "first (and maybe second) strike" thing peculiar to the bow, while at the same time improving realism. So, here goes my proposal:

 

1- On top of the already excellent Arriere's realism mod (which I think is a must as a basis for these changes), augment ALL damage values in the game for a 10-20% value, maybe a little more for projectiles if it's required for balance. At the same time, of course, pay attention to not hinder the durability of the various armour items; if, as I suspect, the decrease in health is caused by the amount of damage received, at this point all defensive items durability should also be raised by roughly the same amount the damage has been (maybe even more for the Heavy Armour, which has always felt a bit too "wimpy" for me on this department - and also to offset the big penalties we would have associated to it from my previous idea).

 

2- Redesign the current Sneak skill perks so that at Novice it's 4X / 2X, at Apprendice it's 5X / 2X, at Journeyman it's 6X / 3X, at Expert it's 7X / 3X and at Master it's 8X / 4X. This would be especially fit to promote the use of BACKSTABBING sneaking, rather than archery sneaking, which in a "realistic" situation I think would be much more effective. I've already seen a well realized mod that modifies things in this direction, but it has been a little too "extreme" to me; maybe values like this could be more appropriate in terms of sheer balance.

 

3- On a more personal note, a version of Arriere mod a bit less "extremized" in terms of equalization of weapons damage. I mean, I find the grandeur of finding a better sword (even a Daedric one, which should, and hopefully soon WILL be rare) a bit removed by the fact that I know that in reality it's just a tiny improvement over the precedent one. I think just a tiny reduction in terms of equalization would be perfect (Arriere's Steel Balance Mild Version, or something of the like); of course, if something of the like would require too much work, forget I asked.

 

 

OTHER LESS "USEFUL AS MAYORS" SKILLS

 

Some more lst minute's thought possible tweaks:

 

1- To improve the usefulness of security, make it so it also regulates pickpocketing. It seems realistic to me, and Sneak is already hugely useful just for combat.

 

2- Slightly improve the effects of Athletics and Acrobatics, while maybe at the same time (for realism purposes) lessen the capacity to run, manage fatigue and jump at lesser levels.

 

3- Slightly improve the utility of Speechcraft by making it so it also slightly affects shops' selling and buying ratios (something along the lines of a 10-15% of the Mercantile skill influence); at the same time, maybe slowing a bit it's leveling speed, since at the moment it's quite obviously difficult to find a reason to put it as major. If that would be possible, maybe even increase the difficulty of the mini-game at low levels, for example by increasing the speed at which the relationship goes down, while of course at the same time increasing the effects of a high values of the skill on this speed (you want to start without speechcraft and still use and train in it? Ok, go for it, but expect to ruin quite some relations while you're at it).

 

4- Do a similar job for Armourer, decreasing the effects at low levels while augmenting them at high; at the same time, maybe implement a slight boost to the worn items durability depending on the amount of this Skill (a good armourer will know better how to avoid damaging them, won't he?); last but not least, for a bit more of realism remove the Master perk of having "perpetual hammers" and substitute it with something along the lines of "greatly reduce the need to change hammers" (10 or 20 times less need to change them, but still that need sometimes present) or "additional bonus to worn items durability". Maybe even both, if balance would ask for it.

 

5- Similar to what someone I think is already doing, base the percentage of failure in harvesting ingredients on the level in Alchemy, thus making it much more expensive for a not Major Alchemist to level up this Skill. I post this anyway to have a complete list, and also because it seems to me the solution employed by that modder is a bit too "extreme" (1% chance for 1 Skill point); I think something around 30% Novice - 50 % Apprendice - 70% Journeyman - 90% Expert - 100% Master would be more balanced in terms of playability.

 

 

SNEAKING FOR NPCS

 

This is probably the least realizable mod, but since we're at it. The idea here is to make Sneak EFFECTIVE also for npcs. For what I've read, when a npc enters in "sneak mode", it will always be perfectly visible to you; this makes me wonder: would it be possible to create a script or whatnot to "test" the npcs' sneaking skill against the PC's current level (I don't think any of the single attributes would be good, at least for balancing issues; I'm afraid no warriors or mages would ever see a thief again wink.gif ), and, if it succeeds, cast "invisibility" on it? Of course, the test should be iterated over time, if possible in the same exact way that happens for the PCs (and I humbly admit I'm ignorant on that). In addiction (but I think here I'm already venturing in the realms of pure dreams), would something of the like be implementable also for humanoid and in general intelligent enemies? Think about the beauty of having enemies THIEVES trying to sneak up on you to achieve that 6x multiplier! This would also make the mysticism line more useful, with all the "detect" things spells and whatnot.

 

 

 

Aaaaand... that's it folks. I hope I have not bored anyone with this long post, but I felt it was best to group all the ideas I had come up with in this ideas in one single post.

 

Any comments / ideas / "I will do that!"s (the best reaction, if you ask me ;) )?

 

[EDIT] Edited a mistake I made in the suggested progression of Sneak attack multipliers.

[Cadarn]

Excellent post!

 

Whilst I don't have the time to break down each piece with comments (baby about to come out of bath and will require Daddy + Bottle), I would love to see a bit of love given to bow specialists. As it stands, I have to skulk about everywhere just to make my first shot count for something worhtwhile against NPC targets. Oddly enough, against beasties in the wilderness it's a bit more realistic - that sneaky shot can do some serious damage.

 

Like a lot of things in Oblivion, the devs seem to have ditched "realism" and fantasy RPG campaign world norms and gone all-out to make the hack n slay power levellers/phat lewt'ers happy. A good bow was and still is a one shot-one kill weapon in trained hands, for instance. In proper campaign worlds, each locale/region has a range of inhabitants: if you are either too weak or too strong to do any meaningful adventuring there, that's just too bad.

 

My number 1 wish would be some sort of pen + paper RPG type encounter "table" assigned to each region. There *could* be some space therein for sensibly scaled baddies, but the bulk of it should be within a range of levels tailored to the perceived difficulty of the area. I mean, just because I'm the grand master of death and destruction I don't expect equivalent strength super-bandits or Dremora/Deadra Lords to be wandering about within an hour's ride of the Imperial City!

 

Rant over, let the baby feeding commence! BTW, I wish I had some sort of instant-wind perk for all the experience I've gained in this skill ;)

[Sumthang]

This may not happen often with me, but i totally and completely agree with everything you said.

I encourage you/anyone who is thinking about making this mod to do so.

[sysgopro]

This may not happen often with me, but i totally and completely agree with everything you said.

I encourage you/anyone who is thinking about making this mod to do so.

 

I cant address the entire post but I will start with hand to hand.

 

I absolutely love hand to hand fighting I believe it should be much improved. I have been tweaking my hand to hand configurations in the TES and hopefully will come up with something very nice soon. I won't even attempt creating h2h weapons yet but would love whomever did.

 

So far I have increased the hand to hand FATIGUE damage only so that I have a much greater chance of knocking down opponents in the longer fights. I don't mind if I kill something in 5 hits without it being knocked down but if I am pounding on you I want to see you DROP!... :)

 

With that said I hadn't thought to attempt to increase disarm % I will look into this as well as possibly the paralysis effect. The paralysis may be difficult due to the fact the bethesda doesn't consider the hands an official weapon and effects generally can only be applied to weapons or spells. Perhaps once we have hand to hand weapons we can add things like paralysis and maybe some knuckles of the peacemaker ( only knocks opponents unconscious) or something..

 

I personally wouldn't mind if sometime"s instead of killing a mob I knock him unconscious. I think it would add more realism as you don't always die from getting punched and it's already in the game for quests NPC's. Not saying I dont want to kill with my hands but I wouldn't mind if I got to finish you off while you lie bleeding at my feet ( a bit graphic I know)... :P

[loveme4whoiam]

Excellent post Erialeth, I really liked all of your ideas. What's more, instead of just saying "This would be cool if..." you've actually gone some way to saying HOW to implement them. Now, if only I had the modding skills to do this :D

[Erialeth]

I cant address the entire post but I will start with hand to hand.

 

I absolutely love hand to hand fighting I believe it should be much improved. I have been tweaking my hand to hand configurations in the TES and hopefully will come up with something very nice soon. I won't even attempt creating h2h weapons yet but would love whomever did.

 

So far I have increased the hand to hand FATIGUE damage only so that I have a much greater chance of knocking down opponents in the longer fights. I don't mind if I kill something in 5 hits without it being knocked down but if I am pounding on you I want to see you DROP!... :)

 

With that said I hadn't thought to attempt to increase disarm % I will look into this as well as possibly the paralysis effect. The paralysis may be difficult due to the fact the bethesda doesn't consider the hands an official weapon and effects generally can only be applied to weapons or spells. Perhaps once we have hand to hand weapons we can add things like paralysis and maybe some knuckles of the peacemaker ( only knocks opponents unconscious) or something..

 

I personally wouldn't mind if sometime"s instead of killing a mob I knock him unconscious. I think it would add more realism as you don't always die from getting punched and it's already in the game for quests NPC's. Not saying I dont want to kill with my hands but I wouldn't mind if I got to finish you off while you lie bleeding at my feet ( a bit graphic I know)... :P

 

 

Well, in reply to your points:

 

1- Yes, upping fatigue damage while maybe lowering a bit actual damage could also be a great idea.

 

2- Are you sure there are no clear values to modify for the %'s of disarming / paralyzing / knockbacking / ecc for each individual skill? I think there should be, shouldn't they?

 

3- On the hand to hand topic, I also would like to insist on the merging h2h-block part. I think this would really be a good way to both hugely improve the usefulness of this skill and its realism. In addiction, do not forget that blocking in h2h is full of those "additional effects" too! In the end, with this suite of changes, h2h would become much more useful in terms of sheer "opponent control", rather than damage, and that would make it the preferred choice for thieves, mages, monks, ecc.; but that's just how it should be, isn't it (of course it can't be realistic to just up the damage values, since we know all too well that hands cannot possibly compare to swords on this)?

 

4- As for the other points? Sadly, I also must admit that I possess no modding skills whatsoever, so I would really like to know if any modder could be interested in realizing these changes!