spoiler Discuss- the Flemmeth/Morrigan Relationship

[DarkeWolf]

Ok, so I went out and got the first book. You definitely piqued my interest, so I had to go out and get it. I'm halfway through it already, and it's not a bad read. I'll definitely say that if it hadn't been a prequel, and would have been a bit longer, then David Gaider could have had a novelist career for himself. Tho, I'm really glad that he did go into the gaming industry, lol.

 

Also, yeah...this is in the spoilers section of the boards. So if somebody reads your post, and gains information that they didnt particularly want to have, and it spoils their gameplay...it's their OWN fault, for not reading the rules about this particular section of the boards. Because if they had, they'd know that this section contains threads that could have spoilers in it. Pretty much the whole reason for this section of the boards, so that peeps that Don't want spoilers, won't read here.

 

Hmmm....how did you get the admission that Flemmeth isnt her mother? was it dialog from her FIRST personal quest (the first grimoir)? I Know it's not in the second set of dialogs for the second book, is it?

 

That presents a query, if Morrigan is Maric's kid. If the player chose to have Alistaire do the siring, who is ALSO Maric's kid..... Now we have an INBRED demon-child, in the hands of one, if not two, power-hungry women. How much worse can this can the possibilities for this freakin' thing get???

 

Another thing that dawned on me. Have you guys/gals also noticed this? In just about EVERY long-term character that Claudia Black plays, the character ends up PREGNANT? First on Farscape, then on Stargate SG-1, now in DA:O! I gotta ask.... WTF?

 

Hmmm, I havent seen Wynn's nightmare yet. Didnt know that her's went badly, also. That does kinda blow a hole in my theory.

 

I DO agree that having the ability to fully destroy Flemmeth is a goal of Morrigan's. However, I don't believe that it's her sole motivation. Yeah, self-preservation IS one heck of an incentive. But lets face it, Morrigan is one very power-hungry woman. A trait that she displays in several different areas of the game. Her argument against destroying the Forge is the predominant one in my (notably very tired) mind at the moment.

Also, every instint IN me, told me not to trust or believe this, while I was playing it. I dont believe hardly a word of this stuff about her wanting to raise this kid "free from the taint" etc etc crapetc.

Odd thought. I was just remembering that scene at the Forge, where Morrigan threw her fit about destroying it. I'd threatened to put her into a golem body, to cut down on the amount of disaproval. But...what if, the forge hadn't been destroyed. What if Flemmeth's soul could have been trapped inside a golem. Throw a control rod on her......

[Flash432]

I'm on my 3rd playthrough now and I am starting to think that Morrigan and Flemmeth are the same consciousness at the same time. We don't know how the possession works exactly so it could be possible that when transferring from the older body to the younger one 'flemmeth: the witch of the wilds' consciousness can inhabit 2 bodies at the same time.

 

On my second playthrough I purposely did not give Morrigan the grimores.

 

She still came to my bedroom and offered me the way out, I asked her how she knew of this ritual and she said she had always known and that it had been part of Flemmeths plan from the very start.

 

On my 3rd playthrough I gave Morrigan the 1st grimore then went to Flemmeth and asked her for the 2nd grimore, gave it to Morrigan and I did not tell her Flemmeth was alive. Then I went back to Flemmeth and her dialogue makes you either choose to kill her or walk away, walking away wouldn't be much fun so I killed her, maybe this is part of her plan also?

 

Maybe in the possession 'flemmeth: the witch of the wilds' can only inhabit 2 bodies at a time and as Flemmeth isn't going to die naturally anytime soon she needs the Flemmeth body to be killed so she can inhabit the 'god child' body.

 

My thoughts on the 'god child' are that it's not going to be a good thing, Morrigan lies to you by saying the old god will be untainted as it's the taint in the baby that attracts the god spirit in the first place, add to that the possibilty of 'the witch of the wilds' possessing the child you have -

 

(Old God + Taint) + (witch of the wilds) = o_O

[brokenergy]

(Old God + Taint) + (witch of the wilds) = o_O

 

Totally agree. Does anyone think that the baby's going to be healthy anyway? Maybe it is dead weird thing with a putrid face that only a mother could love.

[Flash432]

You know, this reminds me a bit of Beowulf....

[DarkeWolf]

(Old God + Taint) + (witch of the wilds) = o_O

 

Totally agree. Does anyone think that the baby's going to be healthy anyway? Maybe it is dead weird thing with a putrid face that only a mother could love.

 

I for one, wouldnt mind helping to assist in making that happen ;) Mace, meet face!

 

That raises another thing thats been going thru My mind. This kid has the taint. Born and bred with it. If it's like the Wardens, this thing is gonna have a short natural lifespan. (Much shorter, if I could get my hands on it). And whether its evil or not, is gonna end up being heavily influenced by the touch of the darkspawn when it starts to burn out. The wardens do, because of the taint. Their affinity to the darkspawn grows increasingly, and eventually kills them.

 

I've also wondered about Morrigan/Flemmeth already being connected. My argument against it, is that Morrigan tries to deny her emotions, where Flemmeth just simply kills the source of them. Unless of course the merging creates a new entity, which is a merger of the two halves. Traits of each one (kinda like the Fusion in dragaonball Z). Which would definitely explain why Flemmeth has tried to raise Morrigan up so much in her own image. Tho parents tend to do that, whether they are trying to or not.

 

As for Morrigan saying that it had been Flem's plan from the start. Yeah, she does admit that in the dialog from the ritual. But, the way that she puts it, is that she's known all of this since the very start. Insinuates that she learned the ritual before joining the group.

Also, reading the book, Its a bit apparent that Flem does posses some limited precognative ability, she can see parts of the future. She saw Maric as king, when he was a young boy. And forsaw his arrival to her hut. She could have prepared Morrigan for this, since childhood. Or from however long ago she saw the events take place before they happened.

 

Ok, lets make that calculation even worse. God-child+taint+Possibly inbred+witch of the wilds+ flemmeth as grandmother. Damn, if it that was me, I'd tell them to strangle me with the cord and just save me the world of pain!

[brokenergy]

(Old God + Taint) + (witch of the wilds) = o_O

 

Totally agree. Does anyone think that the baby's going to be healthy anyway? Maybe it is dead weird thing with a putrid face that only a mother could love.

 

I for one, wouldnt mind helping to assist in making that happen ;) Mace, meet face!

 

That raises another thing thats been going thru My mind. This kid has the taint. Born and bred with it. If it's like the Wardens, this thing is gonna have a short natural lifespan. (Much shorter, if I could get my hands on it). And whether its evil or not, is gonna end up being heavily influenced by the touch of the darkspawn when it starts to burn out. The wardens do, because of the taint. Their affinity to the darkspawn grows increasingly, and eventually kills them.

 

I've also wondered about Morrigan/Flemmeth already being connected. My argument against it, is that Morrigan tries to deny her emotions, where Flemmeth just simply kills the source of them. Unless of course the merging creates a new entity, which is a merger of the two halves. Traits of each one (kinda like the Fusion in dragaonball Z). Which would definitely explain why Flemmeth has tried to raise Morrigan up so much in her own image. Tho parents tend to do that, whether they are trying to or not.

 

As for Morrigan saying that it had been Flem's plan from the start. Yeah, she does admit that in the dialog from the ritual. But, the way that she puts it, is that she's known all of this since the very start. Insinuates that she learned the ritual before joining the group.

Also, reading the book, Its a bit apparent that Flem does posses some limited precognative ability, she can see parts of the future. She saw Maric as king, when he was a young boy. And forsaw his arrival to her hut. She could have prepared Morrigan for this, since childhood. Or from however long ago she saw the events take place before they happened.

 

Ok, lets make that calculation even worse. God-child+taint+Possibly inbred+witch of the wilds+ flemmeth as grandmother. Damn, if it that was me, I'd tell them to strangle me with the cord and just save me the world of pain!

 

I do not think that the kid would suffer the taint anyway as it is a poison to all who consume it not some viral infection or other disease. If Alistair was Maric and Fiona's kid from The Calling then bringing him to the world would be practically useless as he would have been already been dead, plus Morrigan would have inadvertently got the taint as well if you proceeded with the ritual.

 

Morrigan wouldn't have been connected with Flemeth unless she unwittingly wore the robes of possesion and proceeded with Flemeth's ritual. Plus Morrigan may have the real Grimoire but in her conversations with the Warden, it seems that she doesn't have the power to perform such a task of extending her life as (and this is what I assume) that she would need to make her spirit powerful with a demon's help. Morrigan remember also is a cunning woman; she would find out Flemeth's plans sooner rather than later so for all we know she could not have the powers of a seer or any other demon power's as demons take possession of the body and spirit and in no way influence the physical alteration of Flemeth. It is quite interesting that Kate Mulgrew (voice of Flemeth) stated that Morrigan is beautiful and smart yet very vulnerable and her vulnerability is shown several times during the game such as the nose incident and Grimoire. We have not seen the last of Morrigan yet as she has many plans for the male warden (if he developed an intimate relationship and got her ring) maybe in the expansion or if they choose to make a squeal.

 

Flemeth's power to see into the future stems from the fact that she is possessed by a powerful demon that feed of each other (it with life, her with power). She will return eventually in another from later on (maybe in the sequal) and wouldn't be cool if you had her as companion and in one point you have to choose between her and Morrigan. Now who would you choose? Morrigan would be for me as she is my/friend's mother of my/friend's child and Flemeth would just continue her viscous cycle of renewal.

[DarkeWolf]

Ugh, there is just NO way that I could deal with having Flemmeth in my party. All of her nutty dialog would drive Me nuts. (There's a saying that crazy people make sane people crazy, and I fully believe it)

And that cackling laugh of her's makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

No, no no. no flemmeth is my party.

 

About the taint... Agreed, its not a disease or an infection. However.... IF you believe what morrigan says, when she's explaining the ritual, she clearly states... that the child having the taint, will draw the demon to it like a beacon. So, according to that, it does become genetic. Alistair, also confirms this in some of his dialog, if you have a romance with him, and start to set him up as king. He states that Warden don't have children for fear of passing along the taint. And the thought of TWO warden bearing a child (IE his heir to the throne) is a possibility that he doesn't want to face.

Consider this- think of all the real-world substances which affect our genetics, and can be passed down to offspring. Alcohol. Alcoholism can be passed from sire to offspring. Soldiers that have been subjected to mustard gas, or other poisonous chemicals, can pass genetic defects to their children. Survivors of napalm exposure in Vietnam, also passing along genetic defects.

 

 

Hmmmm have not read the Calling yet. Maric becomes a warden??

 

I havent seen the conversation with morrigan that you're referring to, about her not being powerful enough to do the transferal. Where did this come from, I wanna check it out.

 

Indeed, I fully agree. A very cunning, and very devious woman. She has the possibility of becoming a very potent and prominant plot factor in later releases. I also agree about her vulnerabilities, which to me... result from the facts taht she's never had friends, nor truly cared about anyone.

 

Also on choosing Flemmeth or Morrigan. Morrigan is hard enough to trust. Flemmeth? Absolutely no way that I could trust her.

[brokenergy]

Ugh, there is just NO way that I could deal with having Flemmeth in my party. All of her nutty dialog would drive Me nuts. (There's a saying that crazy people make sane people crazy, and I fully believe it)

And that cackling laugh of her's makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

No, no no. no flemmeth is my party.

 

Flemeth could have obtained a new body by the time you see her again I assume. Wouldn't be interesting to find out more about Morrigan from the one who raised her. Flemeth is a very interesting woman and I would love to learn more about her from her point of view.

 

About the taint... Agreed, its not a disease or an infection. However.... IF you believe what morrigan says, when she's explaining the ritual, she clearly states... that the child having the taint, will draw the demon to it like a beacon. So, according to that, it does become genetic. Alistair, also confirms this in some of his dialog, if you have a romance with him, and start to set him up as king. He states that Warden don't have children for fear of passing along the taint. And the thought of TWO warden bearing a child (IE his heir to the throne) is a possibility that he doesn't want to face.

Consider this- think of all the real-world substances which affect our genetics, and can be passed down to offspring. Alcohol. Alcoholism can be passed from sire to offspring. Soldiers that have been subjected to mustard gas, or other poisonous chemicals, can pass genetic defects to their children. Survivors of napalm exposure in Vietnam, also passing along genetic defects.

 

There are also some (by some I mean one in a million) who survive it. The kid could become a carrier of sorts and pass it on to the next of kin. It could happen- in the real world there where times that there where children born healthy but their children were mentally or physically disfigured. Plus if you read the Calling there might be a chance to free your self. Who knows, this reminds me of the blight of Morrowind and the corprus disease; a cure would be found eventually. Maybe it could be found where it was first started; Tevinter.

 

Hmmmm have not read the Calling yet. Maric becomes a warden??

 

Maric has something to do with the wardens and plus it is great background for the new enemy in the Awakening.

[DarkeWolf]

I finished Stolen Throne last night. I'll be picking up Calling on my way to school today.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

@darkewolf

 

I just wanted to point out about the fade dream that the main character was able to resist the illusion without being a pseudo-daemon him/herself. Now you may point out the taint, but Alistair wasn't able to wake himself from it either.

 

I think it proves that anyone can become self aware in the Fade but only Mages usually do (doesn't it say that in the game?) or people with very strong wills, like the main character.

 

My 2 cents about Morrigan is that she is a kidnapped child. Where else do you think the legends about the witch of the wilds stealing the children comes from... obviously it is true. Of course Morrigan has some similarities to Flemeth since she spent most of her life with her.