spoiler Discuss- the Flemmeth/Morrigan Relationship

[brokenergy]

You know your timeline makes sense actually.

 

This is a really stupid question to ask but just out of curiosity, in your time line is the warden the same age as Alistair? Because in the book the calling, it is stated that by the time Maric goes to the deep roads with the wardens, you would be born, so at book time you are 20 years old when the blight strikes and Alistair is the same age as you. Just asking

[Tikkidew]

Long read but very interesting topic. My opinion on the matter is probably far off, but it's only because there's just so much uncertainty. Flemeth says it perfectly "You are required to do nothing, least of all believe."

 

Right from your first meeting with Morrigan at the Warden's Cache, the game is on. Might as well have a "new quest" pop-up announcing "Morrigan's Ritual". Knowing how events turn out, it all seems too convenient. They live a hop skip and a jump from Ostagar. They have the treaties. They rescue you from the tower. They join the party and are all too happy to have done all this without any reward.

 

I don't trust or believe anything Morrigan or Flemeth has said in the entire game. It's just one big manipulation. For all we know Flemeth is Morrigan's child, or a decoy. Maybe Morrigan is the decoy. Maybe the whole Grimoire fiasco is just another way to throw you off even further away from the truth. Maybe it's a test. If Flemeth is truly the witch of the wilds, then "Morrigan's Ritual" was her plan from the getgo intending all along for Morrigan to birth this ancient god.

 

Whom ever is the real Witch of the Wilds is really of no concern. What matters is that "Morrigan's Ritual" was planned as the end result from the beginning. I hardly believe they rescued the wardens from the tower for any other reason.

 

Everything about it seems just sooo convenient, in hind site. I kicked Morrigan to the curb in Lothering, but she still shows up at the end with all the knowledge about the warden's burden and the ritual. So ... none of it adds up or was meant to. Like I said, it's pretty much all a big mind screw for the sole purpose of birthing this child.

 

BTW ..... My mage is good friends with 1st Enchanter Irving, saves the Circle, finds the Grimoire in his office and isn't curious at all to what knowledge he may hold about Flemeth? Bioware is good at subtly steering the path and leaving huge gaping holes in their subplots.

[DarkeWolf]

Energy- gamefiles list the Warden at 20. So by my caluclations we'd be the same age as Alistaire. However by game standards we are 10 years younger than Al, and 12 years younger than Morrigan.

I see what you're thinking. As soon as you asked that, I wondered "Oooh! What if the Warden is Fiona and Maric's kid!?"

 

Tikkidew- thanks, and welcome aboard :)

To be completely honest.... your opinion isnt so far fetched. I thought pretty much the exact same thing, about it being one big screw over on the witches' parts. At first.

For me, this game was like a movie, or book that leaves me thinking one thing, up until I go back thru it again, and pick up on some of the things that I missed, or things that seeing them a second time, makes sense in hindsight.

A lot of it tho, also depends on you, how you play it out. For instance, some of it won't show up for you, if you dont play the morrigan relationship. Which really sucks for vanilla female characters. If you go the "dark side" type of character, Morrigan also doesnt reveal some of the stuff that she does. Its like real-life women say "It's easier to leave behind an arse than it is a nice guy".

 

Yeah, I agree tho that the whole subplot of this game, is to have the kid. And you make a very, very valid point that Flemeth holds just too many pieces of the puzzle. She does have possession of the treaties. She does live very close to where the 1st gamechanging battle takes place which makes it that much easier for her to intercede on the warden's behalf. She even knows that she has to interceded. And she knows just oh-so-much about what's going on.

 

And with all honesty... there is still a nagging question in my mind.... at Ostagar was it the darkspawn that took me out, or did Flemeth? Did she "show up just in the nick of time" and grab us up off the top of the tower? Or was she already there, laying in wait, up until the darkspawn started to beat us down, then zap us with a sleep spell, and then chase off the DS?

 

In a lot of ways, in my mind, Flemeth is like the old greek gods. Sitting around watching from the shadows, watching their favorite heroes, causing things to happen in order to direct them in the directions that they want them to take. Throw them a bone here and there to see that they make it through, and eat popcorn while the hero sheds blood sweat and tears.

And from what you could read in the books... Flem has been at this game for 20-30+ years (depending on which timeline your going by-- book vs game) steering key players towards this end. Getting hold of key pieces, gaining the knowledge that she needs, and all of that.

 

Before I wouldnt have spoken on Flemeth or Morrigan's behalf. I've got to admit that while I dont like Flemeth or her methods.... but--- a lot of good things did come out of the things she's done. And I've come to realize that Morrigan isnt the heartless manipulating gold-digger that I originally thought that she was.

 

Thats a really, really interesting idea of Flemeth being a decoy. I could debate both sides of that. I'm gonna have to think on that one a little bit!

 

 

Ok, I agree, there's definitely some enormous chasms that need to be filled. In my journalism class waaaaaay back in highschool I was taught that this is a plot device that can be used as cliffhangers, if more is planned to be released at a later date.

[Tikkidew]

Yeah, I agree tho that the whole subplot of this game, is to have the kid. And you make a very, very valid point that Flemeth holds just too many pieces of the puzzle. She does have

And with all honesty... there is still a nagging question in my mind.... at Ostagar was it the darkspawn that took me out, or did Flemeth? Did she "show up just in the nick of time" and grab us up off the top of the tower? Or was she already there, laying in wait, up until the darkspawn started to beat us down, then zap us with a sleep spell, and then chase off the DS?

 

Hi thanks! :)

 

That's a great point and exactly how I feel about Flemeth's involvement. Either everything that happened was according to a master plan, or it was all just one fantastic coincidence. I don't buy it. I do agree that my view point may be skewed when it comes to Morrigan as I have not played through the "Male PC" and the "Dark" options. I'm just basing my opinion on the initial meeting and many little "slips" in between until the ending ritual.

 

During the "Urn of Sacred Ashes" quest, when talking to the guardian, he's looking into each party member's soul. When he gets to Morrigan he's like: "Morrigan, Flemmeths daughter...what?" she immediately shuts him up. That's a pretty interesting piece to the puzzle. What about all these codex entries on the "old gods", they're all Dragons and one codex even mentioned that one of them was beautiful. Sooo .. could this mean Flemeth is actually an old god? Could it be that the Dragon is her true form and the old woman is actually her shape-shifted appearance?

 

Yes, there are a lot of "what ifs" concerning their true nature, they could be abominations for all we know. Like I said in my previous post, it's just all to convenient. It feels like they're playing a game with each other. Remember, Morrigan said it started as a game when she was a child in the wilds. Wouldn't surprise me if this was just that.

[DarkeWolf]

Not a prob, I'm always glad to see when people post new ideas and opinions in our discussion here :)

 

You're actually one of the only people I've "talked" to that hasn't done the relationship aspect. Which, may get you a lot of questions, since it's becoming very apparent that the whole relationship with the warden DOES end up impacting her personal goals and reactions a lot more than I realized.

 

For me, Flemeth reminds me a LOT of the native american Totem Spider. Spider is an old Totem with much knowledge, but is a keeper of her secrets. She spins her webs, strands all interconnected to a center point. Spider is often thought as a manipulator, as her strands can be taken as imagery for the way that she works people around in a chain of events to reach a center goal. She is also considered to be a dangerous healer, as her venom can be made into medicine, IF it doesnt kill the patient.

She is also one of the more "alien" Totems, as she is an insect Totem, which combined with her penchant for secrecy makes her difficult to understand.

 

Like I said before, Flemeth has been working towards this goal for quite some time. We know that it's been at least since King Maric was a teenager, as she was involved in steering him towards certain events prior to him reclaiming the Ferelden throne. Which, by game time was about 32-35 years ago. So she's been at this since at least then, if not even before that.

 

Hrm. Interesting. I had taken Morrigan's reaction to the question in the Sacred Ashes quest to be her dislike for dealing with spirits and the fact that this particular one can "see inside" of her barriers and doesnt like that it knows more about her than she's comfortable with. But you mentioning it like that, there's definitely the possibility that she was worried about something being revealed that she didnt want to be.

 

I dont think that the old woman is a shapeshifted appearance. ALL the stories, not just Morrigan's versions, tell of Flemeth once being human. All of the abominations that we've seen so far, at least in some way... still are humanoid. Wynn, actually keeping the whole of her personality, and no outward physical signs.

Conner also retained his body, but then, his demon didnt enter him physically, and was manipulating him thru the fade.

 

Theres another interesting point. I myself, dont see flemeth being an old god. BUT... it could explain some motivation. 1) The desire to set free one of her kin. 2) I could see the Old Gods wanting to take vengeance on the Maker for imprisoning them. having more of them teamed up together could definitely increase their chances of accomplishing that goal.

[Tikkidew]

That's very interesting, I must now do a play through with a male character and see for myself. I did downloaded the file you provided before. I can see what you mean about Morrigan, but it still didn't sway her away from her/Flemeth's ultimate goal.

 

Your analogy between Flemeth and a "totem" Spider is really cool. It's true .. Flemeth really does weave a web that's ingenious in design and seemingly limitless in it's resolve. When you put it that way, Flemeth is actually one of the deepest characters in the game huh?

 

The reason I brought up the idea that Flemeth may be an Old God was for the fact that after you kill her and give Morrigan Flemeth's Grimoire she tells you Flemeth will eventually find another host to live within. Hmm ... sort of like what happens when you slay that other Old (tainted) god, the Archdemon (well, unless a Grey Warden slays it).

 

Plus Flemeth would have had to teach Morrigan the ritual of trapping an essence of an ancient god at some point. It's one of the reasons I believe Morrigan knew all along of Flemeth's plan. There's also the whole bit when confronting Flemeth about Morrigan's need to kill her and retrieve the Grimoire. Flemeth wasn't surprised at all, she even hints that this isn't the 1st time she's done this and that YOU'RE the one being played like a fool, for Morrigan is no stranger to Flemeth's secrets of long life and power.

 

I'm sure we'll eventually be fed more tidbits here and there in Expansion packs .. but I'm pretty sure Bioware won't give anything away until DA:O 2.

[DarkeWolf]

Well, first off.... you dont necessarily have to play a male character if you dont want to. there's a mod called equal love http://www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=429 that essentially makes everybody in the world of ferelden bisexual, so that you can play whichever gender character you want and still be able to do the romances with any of them.

If you want to go ahead and romance alistaire or zev or even leliana too, you can also do that with a mod called polygamey http://www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=259 that lets you have multiple romances at the same time. and believe it or not .... you actually unlock achievements by doing so.

 

I will also go ahead and warn you.... for the full story in the morrigan romance, don't give her Flemeth's second grimoire. Complete the quest, just don't give her the book ;)

 

True, her regrets dont stop her from leaving, at the end. But what if its something along the lines that flemeth told her that the warden being around the kid would result in something bad? She'd be leaving to protect them both.

Or, it could be to keep the kid out of the Grey Warden's hands. What I mean is, is when those other wardens get to Ferelden from Orlais, they are gonna hear about the warden that killed the AD surviving. Thats something that has never happened before, and they are gonna have a LOT of questions. And a lot of those questions, they are gonna want to ask Morrigan. And probably study that child. After all this, I dont think she'd take the chance of them deciding its not worth the risk of them deciding to just outright kill it.

(All said, thats one of the reasons why I chose to say that I would be traveling at the end. I wouldnt want to be around when those other wardens arrive either. Let Al deal with them, he doesnt know enough to cause any trouble for anybody. That and who knows, they may decide to dice me up as a guinnepig to find out whats going on that let me survive it).

 

Thanks! Like I said, she really does make me think of Spider. So far as her being the "deepest" she's definitely one of the most mysterious. Especially if you know the stuff from the books. Broken said it before and now I agree with him that Flemeth IS a key part of this whole story. Moreso as a background player, but yeah...we both feel that we flies are gonna be caught in her web for a while yet to come.

 

And yeah, definitely agreed. They'll throw us a few tidbits in the expansion, but the big story they gonna make us wait till next year in the sequel. IF they decide to wrap it all up then. IF they decide to go and continue the game past that, we may not know the whole story for a few years.

 

Oh yes, morrigan knew about it from the very beginning. Talking to her about the ritual you can get her to tell you that it was the reason why flemeth sent her with you to have the kid.

 

Sort of like, yes. She could have another daughter stashed away somewhere as a backup. Or she could find somebody who's desperate or stupid enough to just let her take them.

Like I said, I dont know about the whole idea of her being inhabited by an old god. Probably because that's a really scary thought, and I dont wanna face it, lol. Considering that I did kinda sorta kill her and all.....

 

There's a new short comic that bioware just released. The story behind it is written by David Gaider. The same guy that did the DA books, and wrote the storyline for DA:O. Its a conversation that took place tween alistaire and morrigan before she hits the warden up for the ritual.

http://blog.bioware.com/

[Tikkidew]

Thank you for the great reply DarkeWolf!

 

That's a lot of stuff to consider. Thanks for making me see this other point of view. I suppose you're right, the Wardens would indeed be curious, and would like to get their hands on the child. BUT, if we look at it from another point of view ....

 

Grey Wardens don't seem like the "Sherlock Holmes" type of bunch. They're more like the James Bond of that setting. They have a License to kill, they have lots of sex and they save the day in the most dire situation. Wardens are homicidal sociopaths like Duncan who would do anything to succeed. I mean he didn't even try to talk to Jory when he had second thoughts. He just murdered him with no reservation. Riordan insists that Loghain should join the Wardens .. even after everything Loghain has done. Why? Because the Grey Wardens don't care one way or the other, they just get the job done.

 

Okay, so we both know Wardens are all bonafide badasses who are above the law with little regard for morality. They just need to rid the world of Darkspawn. This is why I don't think it would matter much to them, even though it's never happened, that the Hero of Ferelden survived. I actually think they would praise Morrigan if they found out. To have the greatest GW since Duncan to remain and carry the torch .. I think they would pay any price for that. Plus, unless you (as Male PC) or Alistair (Female PC) spills the beans about the child, none would be wiser to the fact.

 

So, for argument sake, let's say Morrigan truly loved you. You were able to break through that wall of hers and touch her in a way she's never been touched before. Why on Earth would she never want to be with you again? Through out my life I've had a few friends manipulate the poor guys into thinking they loved them, but in reality were just using them to get what they wanted. One of these friends actually started to have feelings for one of these poor idiots, but it didn't stop her from getting what she wanted from him.

 

My point is, Morrigan is a master manipulator. Don't forget this fact. She is a woman with one desire and will do what it takes to achieve her goal. You are just a pawn in her game with Flemeth (or Flemeth's pawn).

 

I really like what you said about Flemeth .. like one of the old Roman/Greek Gods, always watching from afar, subtly intervening on the heroes behalf to help dictate their motives and ultimately guide them on a predetermined path of her will. Discussing this with you though DarkeWolf, has opened my eyes to a lot of things I had not taken into consideration. I'm starting to get a clearer picture as to what part Flemeth and Morrigan play in this tale.

 

I downloaded this program that can extract the sound files from DA:O. I have the soundtrack but there was just so much great music left out. I bet you anything I can extract every Voice Over of Morrigan and Flemeth. There could be a treasure trove of dialoge hidden away. That's my next project! ;)

[DarkeWolf]

No problem, I'm glad to see that my rantings are seen as informative, lol :)

 

No, I agree, I dont see the Wardens as the types (as a whole) to go about the long, drawn out solving of mysteries. Granted they do have the portions of the group which do a lot of research and development, so to speak. But by the large, they are a military organization of soldiers. With the military mindset.

Not all of them are so bad tho, again it comes down to the individual. Una (or whatever her name was,) was actually a very good hearted person before she fell under the sway of the Architect.

 

Yeah, thats what I am saying. Once they find out that they can kill an AD without a warden having to die to do it, they are gonna be VERY interested in finding out how that happened. And until they find out how, neither the Warden NOR Morrigan is going to have their own life, until they do. Hence the reason that I beat feet when it was over with. And I don't see Morrigan as being the type to take well to that at all. Or to having people demand that she turn her secrets over to them.

 

I've said the same thing about Morrigan in the past. I wouldnt go so far as to call her a master manipulator as she tells too much info, isn't hardend enough in the heart, etc. She's "ok" at it. But she is definitely manipulative. A lot of what Wynn has to say about her is trying to point that out, and even Shale picks up on it and has comments. (Women's intuition for other women perhaps?)

Yeah, I've had my experiences with those types of people too. Both personally and thru friends. And after I got a little further into the game the first time, that was my very first instinct as well. Which why in the past I called her a manipulative gold-digger.

 

Tho, I have to confess, in some people's eyes, some of the choices we had to make in the game, may not have been any better. I myself, didn't give a nug's left leg about the politics in Orzammar. I was sitting here getting used for two people's political agendas, when the world was in danger. And I used both parties for more play time, so as to get more xp to be higher level for the final fight. And in the end, used their new king to get the armies I need, for that fight. I used them, and their entire nation, their entire people to achieve my own goal. Granted, it was also in the interest of their OWN survival as well. But I still used them.

 

 

Aha! And there's the point of our discussion ;) What is so important that she still chooses to leave?

[brokenergy]

That is a very good question, maybe she was forced to by her mother when Flemeth taught her the ritual